FBI raids homes in search of "anti-government literature"

reply to post by silent thunder


America is not a democracy.

It is to the point where I just have to do everything I possibly can to go against this system in any way.

I'm not a slave.

I can think and say whatever I damn well please.

I can do whatever I want so long as I am causing no harm.

I will not play your little games. I will not go into debt. I will not let you steal my hard earned money. I will not let you restrict my purchases nor will I let you question me about my purchases. I will not let you see what I choose to read. I will not grant you entry to my house. If you force an entry, you will be met with equal or greater force. I reserve the right to defend myself and my family by any means necessary. I reserve the right to shout from the rooftops that the government has been taken over by a group of psychopathic murderous criminals.

I understand my duty to throw off such shackles of government and help to create a new one.

I am in this for the long haul. I'm not going anywhere. I still have hope that we can solve this without violence, for we are far greater in numbers and while they are smart, we are smarter.

There is info on two of the suspects in this raid

Supporters of Dennison Williams and Leah-Lynn Plante say the two were subpoenaed to a federal grand jury in Seattle at the same time as the raid. They believe it's part of an investigation into anarchists and other political activism.

Full story can be found here KATU.com

reply to post by YouSir



Self government is, in my mind, good government. Those who achieve this state have the government they deserve. Do you understand?

reply to post by VikingWarlord


They can just refuse to go to the Grand Jury witchhunt -- as did the Minneapolis and Chicago activists.

The 14 activists victimized in the September raids invoked their Fifth Amendment right when requested to appear before the Chicago grand jury, and subpoenas were withdrawn.

Another FBI infiltrator entrapment scheme exposed here

On Jan. 10, Jordan began serving out a ten-month prison sentence for refusing to appear before a federal grand jury investigating animal rights activists under the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act. The protest in Minneapolis was part of a national day of actions to raise awareness about Halliday’s case, the dangers of FBI repression and grand jury injustice. Attending the protest in Minneapolis were Sarah Martin and Jess Sundin, grand jury resisters in the case of 23 international solidarity activists under investigation for supposed material support for terrorism.

So animal liberation is terrorism?



This is another "target" of the FBI -- interview at a place I used to be a regular at.

The Improper Use of the Federal Grand Jury: An Instrument for the Internment of Political Activists by Michael E. Deutsch* Copyright (c) 1984 Northwestern School of Law Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology Winter, 1984 75 J. Crim. L. & Criminology 1159

A fair reading of the origins and purposes of the fifth amendment, coupled with the rights of political freedom contained in the first amendment, n139 should create a right to "political silence," barring any compelled testimony before a grand jury touching a witness' political activity and associations. Political activists should not be forced to choose between providing the government with political intelligence about their movement or going to prison. The right of silence incorporated into the fifth amendment as the privilege against self-incrimination has its origins in the opposition of religious and political dissenters to the English institutions of inquisition, the Court of High Commission, and the Star Chamber. n140 Historically, early dissenters, refusing to be coerced by government inquisitions, courageously asserted the right of silence as part of the resistance to governmental attacks on freedom of speech and written expression. Significantly, the dissenters asserted this [*1190] right not only as to their own activity, but to the activity of friends and political associates as well. They claimed a broad right of silence as to all political activity. n141 The Supreme Court has ignored the significance of the political origins of the right to silence in several cases upholding congressional immunity legislation. In Brown v. Walker, n142 a five justice majority upheld an act which supplanted the fifth amendment and compelled testimony in return for transactional immunity. The statute in question, however, limited the grant of immunity to matters concerning the Interstate Commerce Commission and consequently did not implicate first amendment issues. Nonetheless, Justice Field, speaking for the minority, articulated the understanding of the four dissenting justices of the scope of the right to silence:

Sure enough the Commerce Clause of the constitution is used to back up Grand Juries -- amazing!!

This position may be appropriate when it is applied to economic regulation, but when the government seeks to compel testimony concerning political beliefs, activities, and associations, however, immunity from potential criminal prosecution is inadequate. In these situations, witnesses should be [*1191] afforded the fifth amendment protection giving them the right not to testify. The Supreme Court, however, did not follow this reasoning and remained consistent with its decision in Brown when it decided Ullman v. United States n145 almost fifty years later. In Ullman, the Court upheld an immunity act directed toward matters of internal security. It ruled that the act was sufficient to supplant a witness' fifth amendment right to refuse to answer questions about his communist affiliations. n146 In its analysis, the majority failed to apply the political context of the evolution of the fifth amendment right of silence -- the refusal of the witness to disclose his unpopular political beliefs and those of his associates -- or to give any consideration to the relation between the first amendment and the right to silence. In his dissent, however, Justice Douglas, joined by Justice Black, clearly articulated the personal values of freedom of expression and self-dignity from which the fifth amendment arose.

reply to post by overmoderated


Not all anarchists run around in black clothing spray painting things.

But. let them think that if they want to.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by YouSir

 

Self government is, in my mind, good government. Those who achieve this state have the government they deserve. Do you understand?

Ummm...I agree, this to me is an enlightened attainment and when you put it as plainly as that, I comprehend it as well. However, I will also not stand-under any form of governance, other than "self governance".
As I stated to you before, in another thread. I have no desire, need, or want, to be governed or policed by any entity, agency, or collective. I realize also the hyper-responsability as per, action, word and deed that is concomitant with such a stance. Therin lies the dichotomy, a self governed or sovereign individual, awash in a sea of the servile and servitor...It certainly makes existing, not to mention prospering, a challenge, but thank you for your considered response.

YouSir

Originally posted by NAMTERCES

Originally posted by Phenomium
Sooooo, let me get this straight. They kick down someones door (who cares what THEY think this new Patriot Act 2 means), they violated these peoples constitutional rights as well as their human rights. They seize books and uhem....black clothing (real threat there), flags etc. AND THEY ARE CALLING THESE AMERICANS ANARCHISTS AND TERRORISTS?

It's called "pre-emptive policing".

To stop the crime before it happens.

Most policing used to be after the fact. The police arrive on the scene and then collect evidence after it's all over. Then they have to search for the criminals.

In this case, they prevent the criminals from even committing the crime.

It's the new dogma.

Started with George Bush and his "strike first" policy. To go where the terrorists are and strike them before they get so organized and ready that they can strike home.

The old doctrine was based on the Christian turn the other cheek. Yesterday, we believed in God, and thought that he could prevent a person from doing damage to another if He wanted, so we "waited" to see what happened first, then we acted. But, since Bush discarded that old system, a new policy has been in effect. At the first signs of trouble, move in and prevent it, don't wait for the cheek to be struck, don't let them strike your cheek at all. It's the new religion. STRIKE FIRST.

Welcome to the New World Order.

I enjoyed your insightful post.

I call it technofascism. They do this because the technology exists to read minds. And there's more.

Is there a price to pay for this? Yes. That is why 1 and 2 are going down in flames.

They who made the deals, they know what they've done, and are praying to an empty sky that God somehow missed this. My guess is that the hardware is being made in china, opening the doors to their new feeding grounds.
Would an American really break ground to construct such a assembly line? Wouldn't we just scrape the plant right off the face of the earth, if they did?

Nobody owns you but you.
Who you are is your property.

What you create your words and deeds are properties of who you are

We are not robotic slaves to a per-programmed Matrix - We are individual souls connected to the Big Soul if you like or in my opinion -

When we express who we naturally are, we are in harmony with the Big Soul or Universe, if you like.
Some would call this Anarchy and fear change and create draconian laws to punish such thoughts and actions.
Some of these laws might be ridiculous like wearing Black means you are Anti them.

Who is Them but ones who fear change - For change occurs within - Yet change can not occur if one wishes to stay as one is. Change occurs when one faces up to the state of one's soul and this hurts.
Priests would lose their power - Kings and Queens would be as pretenders and topple.

Bullying ways of raising army's to kill those as not like you would not wash any more
Allowing others to starve whilst others feast would be seen as shameful
Competition would turn to Co-operation for the Common Good where all are seen as equal yet unique in their individuality

Guess I can dream for dreams can come true

reply to post by artistpoet


That's why they killed Jesus. He was high, he knew he was high, and they knew he was high. And there was nothing they could do about it, except kill him. I'm not talking about cannabis when I say he was high.

That's why Jesus is still high. It doesn't bend because someone wants us to fit their simpleton version of consciousness.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Is it not a bit odd for the FBI to be involved in collecting spray paint evidence ....Seems a bit of over reaction when going after graffiti artists ....Oh well i guess they are not so busy since 9/11....they might have to make up another act of terrorism to get by.

Personally, i think our Most Great And Dear Leader Obama (praise forever be his name) has done us a great service, ridding the country of such criminals, who would dare use political ideology as an excuse for their anti-govenrnmental hostilities.

Clearly this is the right way. I suggest we all now clean our homes and turn in any material Dear Leader may find objectionable.


/sarcasm



In reality.. I understand there are terrorist groups. Real ones, not even invented by the government. I understand that not all terrorists wear turbans and praise allah. I understand that groups who hold politically extreme views can be a real threat to peace sometimes. But sometimes is the key word there. "Rarely" would be more accurate. Random non-political psychos seem more common in my estimation.

It is truly scary that they executed search warrants based on political ideology, and that READING MATERIALS were part of the warrant. In fact, that is the part that freaks me out the most.

The day political free speech is truly trampled is the day a lot of citizens are going to either start acting or planning. I'm torn between realism and idealism. I want to believe our government will not do this to us.

Please tell me our government will not do this to us.

reply to post by muzzleflash

Funny you should mention 'dictatorships' since the exec. order Bush put in and Obama would not repeal, made the United States office of the Presidency a 'Dictatorship'.

reply to post by silent thunder


Libraries closing, next they will be burning books. Ever seen the film Equilibrium?

Originally posted by Wide-Eyes
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Libraries closing, next they will be burning books. Ever seen the film Equilibrium?

No worries mate, the internet has backed up everything. All banned books are now available free for download on the web.

Originally posted by silent thunder

When FBI and Joint Terrorism Task Force agents raided multiple activist homes in the Northwest last week, they were in search of “anti-government or anarchist literature.”

The raids were part of a multi-state operation that targeted activists in Portland, Olympia, and Seattle. At least three people were served subpoenas to appear before a federal grand jury on August 2nd in Seattle.

In addition to anarchist literature, the warrants also authorize agents to seize flags, flag-making material, cell phones, hard drives, address books, and black clothing...The motivation for these operations, and the instruction that “anarchist” means “terrorist,” is coming straight from the top levels of the federal government...The FBI presentation described anarchists as “criminals seeking an ideology to justify their activities.”

Source:
www.indybay.org...

Has it really come to this? How could they possibly get a warrant for this kind of thing? I'm speechless.

Are the content of political writings now deemed a reason for raiding homes? How could any American, regardless of political views, justify this kind of blatant assault on the nation's most hallowed ideas of freedom?

edit on 8/1/2012 by silent thunder because: (no reason given)

This case does not involve the literature in question. I know the news skews it that way however that is not the case. The two people in question are suspected of having destroyed thousands of dollars in property. Their motivation to do so is their political beliefs. Or, dare I say, lack thereof.

The FBI has got the warrant to search the home because the literature will be used to prove the prosecutions case that these people we're motivated by ideals derived from the literature. The prosecutor must prove motive. And the bill of rights allows for this. The FBI is doing this by the book... We should be proud the FBI has adhered to the upstanding principles woven into our great nation.

Even though many of us wouldn't mind throwing a trash can through a bank window.....

Let's not cry conspiracy or tyranny yet.....Not with this case anyway...

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by ArrowsNV
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Remember, Big Brother is watching...

When the threat of WAR means your certain and utter destruction, WAR is avoided and PEACE remains. MAD anyone?

I think you meant to say SLAVERY is FREEDOM, that would be the BAD is GOOD framework you were supposed to convey. Funny though, people mock FREEDOM today and say it is really SLAVERY. Or maybe you really think FREEDOM is BAD and SLAVERY is GOOD, then you got your hogwash in order? But that would mean you wish to be a slave.

IGNORANCE is STRENGTH, whew at least you got the order right for the last one. BAD is GOOD, check.
Ignorance is always bad, strength always good....totally incompatible hogwash. But wait, IGNORANCE is BLISS so it can be good after all.

The poster was quoting '1984'. If you liked 'Fahrenheit 451', then you should consider memorizing every word of '1984', as your 'book people' persona. It is genius, but has been surpassed by technofascistology which Orwell didn't specifically refer to in his work.

Orwell was big on peephole type cameras, and listening devices, as being the main tools of fascism, and methods of indoctrination which begin as contradictions, which must be acceptable to the person, or it ends in torture, until you're broken. He was describing that the war is of ideas, hence the love of fountain pens and paper, illegal in his dystopian world. ETA: nothing was illegal, since there were no laws, but he could be reasonably certain he'd be vaporized if caught with writing materials. Implied power, it's in all the stories these days.

The messages you are attempting to correct are among the contradictions which Big Brother rams down the throats of the proles, as a means to break and control them. One (actual) method of hypnosis is called the 'contradiction method', which is referred to always, in this opus. How many fingers am I holding up, Winston? He showed how the media want to, are attempting to, and now, finally, influence the climate until there's nothing but compliance to the bastards who live in splendor amidst intentional physical, and mental, rubble. The 'O'brien's', so to speak, are the party members, who are allowed to do anything, even shut off their telescreens. It's a profound, charged writing, and since he knew he was writing about the true intentions of evil, it probably drained him. However, he was trying to stave off the present.

Orwell made compassionate, yet scathing observations, on the oppressed. He is talking to you and me. Those who actually enjoy watching a television, rather than to analyze the intents of the programmers. A pint ain't nearly enough, but a liter makes me bladder run so...

Here's another one:

'but then something happened to the telescreen, or rather, something happened to the 'tone' of the telescreen..it was something hard to describe....'

That (^) was the most important passage in the book, imo. Good Morning, Amerika.


Orwell was hereby referring to what shrinks call 'referred delusions', common among 'schizophrenics'. A broken protagonist is aware of the sudden change in broadcast signal that was designed specifically for anyone at his stage of control. Most normal people don't catch stuff like this. Most would never imagine the tv has any motive at all. However, all subscription tv companies are reporting losing customers, in large lots, at this time. This means gas prices are coming down. (Chocolate rations are going up.....).

Don't let this book escape your time. It's common sense, but there are those who actually grasp the meaning as wrong as wrong could be. Someone once told me that 1984 is no longer relevant, since 'communism fell'.

T'was merely a 'opeless fancy, but it took me breath away...

msxnet.org...

I wonder if some of the antigovernment literature they found was the declaration of independence and the bill of rights.

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted in and read this thread. Sorry that as the OP I haven't been a better thread host, but, well, that's just the way I am on ATS most of the time. I do better at introducing ideas for debate rather than putting myself in the nitty-gritty of discussion. And at any rate, my own opinions have been echoed by others, and to their posts I have little to add. The fact that this thread has gained so much attention and sparked debate is highly gratifying. And I hope people will continue to think about these issues in the real world long after this thread has dropped from the active topics lists.

Remember, in the end they can't destroy your freedom to think. Only you can do that. They can't get inside your skull and your soul unless you let them in. Don't give in to fear. Don't be afraid of the cold night air.

I posted this on another thread about this.....I wanted to include it here in case the FBI reading these threads on our tax dollar went to lunch and hasn't put me on one of those lists that were inspired by all the fascist dictatorships we spend decades invading...I would go so far as to say that if you are not on one of those lists then you run the risk of being a traitor.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes but we are going to violate our highest law for vandalism.....yeah....that is not just an excuse to create a precedent to arrest people for reading........in a DEMOCRACY..

I don't care if they took a dump on Obama´s head.....they can't have their homes invaded for a book they may have..

That is just validation of a totalitarian state trying to push its way through our constitution like a hole in our collective heads.

No, this is wrong. They committed a minor crime....I don't care. Even if they found a quote on a wall.....what if they just remembered it, or their friend read it to them and they just knew it.....but happen to have a book of quotes that contains it.....too many nonsensical things to consider...

The fact is people justifying this are really stretching the imagination to make these KIDS criminals for doing what even their own kids might have done....vandalism,,....pfft.

This is completely undemocratic and does not belong in our country.....no matter the fake threat you throw at it. We are not going to let you do whatever you want under the fake pretense of security. That worked for Hitler and fox news viewers after 9/11.....you lost so much support for going too far that you have to really push to do anything like that again,...

We will push back....STOP....this is our country. Don't get carried away.....or you run the risk of looking like a traitor.

We are a democratic people...like it or not. You will NOT ERASE hundreds of years of mentality because some kids write on walls.....things MOST people feel now a day's anyways thanks to the heavy hand of nonsense you employ.

You are really pushing it......too far. You validate the stance against you with every retarded action you take and every retarded defense of said actions you preach.