Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Originally posted by waynos
I reckon that the Harrier still has ten years service in front of it even with the USMC and RAF, other operators will be keeping them even longer.

Unfortunately the IAF will be retiring them sooner (2010).. because they're the original harriers (not upgraded).. "sob"...

The computer controlled hydraulics manipulation of the rudders/flaps etc. etc. make it possible for the aircraft to be unbelievably agile and "flexible" in the sky..
The future designs which are tail-less( all tail less aircraft are inherently unstable) will use other hydraulic flap like devices (forget their names) to enable super maueverability..
Also the assymetric nozzles of the Su-30 series are computer controlled...

Blah, Blah, Blah, All these new features and gizmos and gadgets just make aircraft more complex, not necessarily more effective. Aerial combat will always come down to the pilot NOT the plane.

Pilots today do not get anywhere near the 'stick time' they used to, and once again dogfighting is thought to be a thing of the past (when will they ever learn). Even as we speak, young studs in F-15s, F-16s etc. are getting whiped left and right by old guys in F-5s and A-4.

So the F/A-22 and Su-37 look cool, but they are not worth anything unless the pilot flying it knows what he is doing. And I still think an F-4 crew from back in the day could whip a young stud in anything flying today.

IMO any decent pilot of today with good dog fighting skills will be more than a match for a pilot of "yesteryear" as you were mentioning...and that to iin a pure gunfight..

We'll have to agree to disagree here. As I said earlier, pilots now are more 'computer engineer' and less 'hardcore fighter jock' (no offense to any pilots out there, put this is coming from active duty USAF personnel). So while the F/A-22 stud is staring at his screen in the cockpit, tryig to figure out what the hell everything means, he will find some old guy in an F-4 has just whopped his sorry behind.

Pilot skill trumps technology. period




[edit on 18-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

I disagree. Technology is still worth more than skill.

I'll dogfight you in a F-22,you take a Cessna ,I'll still easily shoot you down even if i know nothing about how to fly a plane. Besides, how can the F-4 pilot detect the F-22 pilot in the first place? 40km away, the F-22 would have already launched an AAMRAAM while the F-4 pilot is still searching for the F-22 on his radar.

Yes, in the EXTREME case of an F/A-22 vs a Cessna, the F/A-22 will win every time. However, as advanced as the F/A-22 is, it is still as only good as they guy flying it.

I have so far only found one person on this entire site that agrees with me. But I wholeheartedly believe, minus any extremes such as the one metntioned above, pilot skill will ALWAYS trump tecnhnology. I'm not saying that technology is not important. When used appropriately it can be of tremendous advantage. but only if the guy flying the plane knows how to employ it properly.

So while the young stud is trying to figure out all the widgets, and gadgets on his F/A-22, he finds that he is not as 'stealthy' as his thinks, and his AMRAAM fails, he will find some old guy in an F-4 just smoked his behind!





[edit on 21-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

Thats were ergonomics comes in.

The screen could be simplified, like;

"Push here to launch big red thingy".

Originally posted by KyleChemist
Yes, in the EXTREME case of an F/A-22 vs a Cessna, the F/A-22 will win every time. However, as advanced as the F/A-22 is, it is still as only good as they guy flying it.

I have so far only found one person on this entire site that agrees with me. But I wholeheartedly believe, minus any extremes such as the one metntioned above, pilot skill will ALWAYS trump tecnhnology. I'm not saying that technology is not important. When used appropriately it can be of tremendous advantage. but only if the guy flying the plane knows how to employ it properly.

So while the young stud is trying to figure out all the widgets, and gadgets on his F/A-22, he finds that he is not as 'stealthy' as his thinks, and his AMRAAM fails, he will find some old guy in an F-4 just smoked his behind!





[edit on 21-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

The pilot on board F/A-22 is just a formality. On F-22 pilots dnt realy need good fighting skills, he need only good decision making ability rest the F-22 will do it it self. It is compelety computerized & with new LAYDAR Missiles coming out F-22s will only need the pilot to push the button rest would be upon LAYDARS & F-22.

Even the worst of pilots will be able to shoot down F-4 even if he doesnt have AMRAAMS. F-22 has greater self defence than any other ACs. U cant fire heat seeking missiles on F-22 cause its useless as it does not use after burners. U come from behind the F-22 will detect u & even b4 F-4 pilot fires a missile F-22 would already have changed the possition besides the computers on board will detect every move & predict F-4s moves.
The main factor here is finding F-22, that is vertualy impossible for F-4 Radars & even if it does it wont get a lock-on.

In other cases YES the pilot is what realy counts. On a good day one AC can bring down 5 ACs if a good pilot is on board. E.g; 1965 Indo Pak war, PAF's MM.Alam shot down 5 IAF Hunters with his F-86 Sabres in less than a minute with only little fuel left. So yes Pilot is a major factor & F-22 should fear EF-2000, RAFALE & may be even J-XX in the future if they go against it & have good pilots on board.

Well, as I thought, no one is going to agree with me , so there is really no point in arguing about it.

But I still think The F/A-22 or Su-37 is only as good as guy flying it. Defense contractors have been saying for years that 'this plane makes pilot training unimportant, this plane has this widget that flys itself....' Technology is great, but it has NEVER lived up to the hype and it never will.

For those of you that think technology is the be all and end all, read the story of the Golem, very relavent.




[edit on 22-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

Pilots skill is important as demonstrated by israel. Technology is also very important.

The Su-37 is better that the FA-22, but by an iota. Its is slightly more agile than the Raptor. They both have the same "Sneaky Pete" missle system (where the missles are stored in the body, and fly out when a trapdoor is open). The Su-37, though, loses in the appearance competition. The FA-22 is way, way pretty . If we had a squadron of Su-37's we'd probably do a little better. I tell ya, the Russians only do one thing, but they do it great.

maby squadron su 27, after 6 lunches the wholl missle was ended.?


[edit on 22-3-2005 by Fenix F 308]

Originally posted by TheRanchMan
The Su-37 is better that the FA-22, but by an iota. Its is slightly more agile than the Raptor. They both have the same "Sneaky Pete" missle system (where the missles are stored in the body, and fly out when a trapdoor is open). The Su-37, though, loses in the appearance competition. The FA-22 is way, way pretty

. If we had a squadron of Su-37's we'd probably do a little better. I tell ya, the Russians only do one thing, but they do it great.

Dude, the Su-37 isn't even close to the Raptor.

All you have to do is look at pictures of the two aircraft.

Compare the bolts holding the Sukhoi together with the smoth RAM composite of the Raptor.

Compare the tails of the two aircraft. The Sukhoi has a conventional engine configuration while the Raptor has a heat reducing lay out (Engine exhausts are farther apart, are shaped to dissapate heat with theit 'V' shape).

Compare the number of right angles (a primary radar reflector) on each aircraft. The Raptor has none (ZERO) the Sukhoi has tons.

Compare the weapons storage. The Sukhoi caries it's weapons externally which means more drag and a larger RCS. The Raptor carries them internally (no drag from weapons, reduced RCS).

Then compare the avionics of the two aircraft. The Raptor has the most advanced avionics in the world, has not one but TWO Cray supercomputers, and has a low observable veriable frequency radar. The Sukhoi has none of this electronic power.

The Raptor can supercruise (cruise at speeds over Mach one) the Sukhoi can not.

I could go on and on and on.

Originally posted by KyleChemist
Yes, in the EXTREME case of an F/A-22 vs a Cessna, the F/A-22 will win every time. However, as advanced as the F/A-22 is, it is still as only good as they guy flying it.

I have so far only found one person on this entire site that agrees with me. But I wholeheartedly believe, minus any extremes such as the one metntioned above, pilot skill will ALWAYS trump tecnhnology. I'm not saying that technology is not important. When used appropriately it can be of tremendous advantage. but only if the guy flying the plane knows how to employ it properly.

So while the young stud is trying to figure out all the widgets, and gadgets on his F/A-22, he finds that he is not as 'stealthy' as his thinks, and his AMRAAM fails, he will find some old guy in an F-4 just smoked his behind!

Well, that is an extreme case - you are putting an unqualified pilot in a Raptor against an ace seasoned veteran.

A more realistic comparison is a Raptor pilot who has never flown a combat mission, but has been trained and qualified in a Raptor against an ace F-4 pilot.

In this case, I believe the Raptor wins. The F-4 will light up on the Raptors radar long before the F-4 pilot even knows the Raptor is there. The Raptor pilot can just fire a missle at long range and kill the F-4.

Originally posted by KyleChemist
Yes, in the EXTREME case of an F/A-22 vs a Cessna, the F/A-22 will win every time. However, as advanced as the F/A-22 is, it is still as only good as they guy flying it.

I have so far only found one person on this entire site that agrees with me. But I wholeheartedly believe, minus any extremes such as the one metntioned above, pilot skill will ALWAYS trump tecnhnology. I'm not saying that technology is not important. When used appropriately it can be of tremendous advantage. but only if the guy flying the plane knows how to employ it properly.

So while the young stud is trying to figure out all the widgets, and gadgets on his F/A-22, he finds that he is not as 'stealthy' as his thinks, and his AMRAAM fails, he will find some old guy in an F-4 just smoked his behind!





[edit on 21-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

thats true experience does mean alot but like american mad man there not going to send up anyone who is not qualified to fly the raptor, The USAF is known world wide for the best Combat training ever, so there for you have the F-22 More then likely the best plane in the world with the best trained pilot you have one deadly combo

But i dont think that they will be moving young studs into the cockpit of the F-22 i think the F-22 will be flowin by veterans or aces of the F-15 or F-16 so you will have veterans and Aces flying much more advanced and agile aircraft

Originally posted by KyleChemist
Well, as I thought, no one is going to agree with me , so there is really no point in arguing about it.

But I still think The F/A-22 or Su-37 is only as good as guy flying it. Defense contractors have been saying for years that 'this plane makes pilot training unimportant, this plane has this widget that flys itself....' Technology is great, but it has NEVER lived up to the hype and it never will.

For those of you that think technology is the be all and end all, read the story of the Golem, very relavent.




[edit on 22-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

On the contrary, I whole heartedly agree. You may as well use a UAV if pilot skill hardly means anything.

Technology is like a skill multiplier - It can increase effectiveness by x3 or some other number. But that's the point - If the skill is zero, technology doesn't amount to much at all.

The point is, of course if you send an untrained pilot up in a Raptor he won't last long. Put me in their and I'm sure I'd crash the damn thing

However, that F-4 pilot doesn't stand a chance against a rookie pilot TRAINED to fly an F/A-22. The stealth is just too much to overcome for the F-4.

However, I do not disagree with the statement that skill usually will win out. The Raptor is an exception, not the rule.

Put a deadly battle hardened pilot in an F-4 against green pilot in an F-15 or Su-35, and the veteran will probably win.

I think that this actually demonstrates what a good aircraft the Raptor is. It can take a very weak pilot who is trained to operate it, and get him to beat a vastly superior pilot flying an inferior aircraft.

Of course, as it was said, there will be no green pilots flying the Raptor. With under 200 in the whole USAF, they will be able to be very selective as to who they give them to.

Russia will be coming out with our 5th Gen Plane in 2007 now here a pic of the Aviounics of Su-37 "Terminator" www.rc.overtop.ru...

Technology is like a skill multiplier - It can increase effectiveness by x3 or some other number. But that's the point - If the skill is zero, technology doesn't amount to much at all

Put a deadly battle hardened pilot in an F-4 against green pilot in an F-15 or Su-35, and the veteran will probably win

.

Amen!! Thank you! finally someone who has read history and gets it!!

thats true experience does mean alot but like american mad man there not going to send up anyone who is not qualified to fly the raptor, The USAF is known world wide for the best Combat training ever, so there for you have the F-22 More then likely the best plane in the world with the best trained pilot you have one deadly combo

Yes, a well trained, seasoned vetren pilot in an F/A-22 could probably take on anything in the sky, and (I hope) the USAF will only put well trained seasoned pilots in it. However, maybe its because my Father was an old school Air Force crew-chief, while the F/A-22 and S-37 are both amazing aircraft, I still think all the 'tech' they have actually works against them.

Even look at the commercial airlines, even they are haveing the problem of pilots with great 'computer skills' but not so great 'stick and rudder' skills. Remember the saying by Brig Gen. Robin Olds (one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time) 'All this technology on aircraft nowadays is like fighting a knife fight in a phone booth with a spear, the spear is nice, but I want the knife'

I think that this actually demonstrates what a good aircraft the Raptor is. It can take a very weak pilot who is trained to operate it, and get him to beat a vastly superior pilot flying an inferior aircraft.

Despite my previoys posts, I don't mean to knock the F/A-22 (I actually strongly support it), but defense contractors have said this for YEARS. Mcdonnell Douglas claimed the same thing about the F-15 (again, not to knock the F-15) and what happened? Young studs in F-15s ROUTINELY got waxed by well trained expierenced F-106 drivers. Anyone who served in the Air Force at the time can verify this.

As I have said all along, that all this discussion of which plane is better, and this plane has this thingy and can do this cool manevour and has a supercomputer on board is pointless. Its the pilot that matters most, period. The F/A-22 is an amazing machine, no arguments there. It could make an average pilot better, but tech alone will NEVER make a great pilot. I am willing to bet a hardcore 'fighter jock' from back in the day would walk right past a brand spankin new F/A-22 to fire up his old F-4 (or even F-106).

I know I sound like I am contradicting myself (and I probably am). Again, I wholeheartedly support the F/A-22. The Air Force needs a new frontline fighter. But this whole idea that F/A-22 will turn novices into aces really scares me. As amazing as the F/A-22 is, its only as good as the guy flying it.







[edit on 23-3-2005 by KyleChemist]

i agree with that tech is a force multiplier.

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
Russia will be coming out with our 5th Gen Plane in 2007 now here a pic of the Aviounics of Su-37 "Terminator" www.rc.overtop.ru...

Somehow, I am just not very impressed with that after seeing this

I think I was not impres after that I see on the PacFa ..