Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

maybe the plane that your talking about wa the Vityaz 200

i have to write over a sentence or else i get a penalty its bs

2007? They've been working hard on this!
Can't wait to see it, should be good goingon their past record.


So do you get a penalty for small posts? How wierd!

u get a penalty for a one sentence post because they say that the point of your posts should be to inform other people, well i told them , i'm not going to write a friggin paragraph on how i don't know something, its the dumbest penalty, none of the other forums do this

The Su-37's amazing maneuvers included the "Super Cobra� - in this move, the aircraft enters with a speed of mach 1.2 and is pulled through to an alpha of 145 deg, then recovered to the vertical and held in place for 10 to 12 seconds. The nose is then allowed to fall to the horizontal position, emerging at 800 km/h with no loss of height.

Another maneuver is the thrust vectoring to flip the Su-37 onto it's back, and then to rotate it upright and continue in the opposite direction. The most impressive maneuver was the kulbit (somersault). With an entry speed of 900 km/h the aircraft flipped onto it's back (a full 180 deg) facing the opposite direction, inverted and practically stationary. After 'pausing', thrust vectoring completes the kulbit (a 360 deg somersault) with a nose down angle of 30 deg and an exit speed of 650 km/h.

Stats of the Su 37 include:

Max speed - 3000 km/h - Mach 3 +

Super cruise capability (unsubstantiated at this point) - between Mach 1.5 - 1.7

range w/max fuel - Approximately 5000 km
with inflight refueling Approx. 6500 km

Please not that there stats are for the Su 37 Super Flanker not the Su 37 Berkut (Golden eagle).

And as stated previously the Su-37 will incorporate an element of stealth either in the form of plasma generators, or comprised of super RAM materials.

Now can your F-22 beat that SUCKAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Originally posted by eastern_block
The Su-37's amazing maneuvers included the "Super Cobra� - in this move, the aircraft enters with a speed of mach 1.2 and is pulled through to an alpha of 145 deg, then recovered to the vertical and held in place for 10 to 12 seconds. The nose is then allowed to fall to the horizontal position, emerging at 800 km/h with no loss of height.

Another maneuver is the thrust vectoring to flip the Su-37 onto it's back, and then to rotate it upright and continue in the opposite direction. The most impressive maneuver was the kulbit (somersault). With an entry speed of 900 km/h the aircraft flipped onto it's back (a full 180 deg) facing the opposite direction, inverted and practically stationary. After 'pausing', thrust vectoring completes the kulbit (a 360 deg somersault) with a nose down angle of 30 deg and an exit speed of 650 km/h.

Now can your F-22 beat that SUCKAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Immature !
The Super Cobra is NOT used in combat these days because:

First, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" can only be done without any armament and with less than 50% or half the fuel tanks.....

Second, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" performed in a wrong way can cause serious damages and in fact, has attributed to numerous deaths of pilots at 15g.

Thirdly, the "cobra maneuver" and "super cobra" is only effective if the interceptor is really close and does not pick it up ....

Fourth, the "cobra maneuver" and "super-cobra" slows the Sukhoi down so much that if the interceptor spots the maneuver early enough and adjusts there is absolutely no way that the Sukhoi can survive.

Fifth, the only air maneuvers that the Sukhoi's can truly claim as a "no one else can do" is the "Super Cobra" and "Kulbit".
The Swedish did the famed "cobra maneuver" back in the 60's and it has been claimed, yet still unconfirmed, that a number of US aircraft (ie: F-22, etc.) can perform the standard "cobra maneuver". A missile at mach 4, with a proximity fuse, not an impact one, would barely have to correct it's course to complete the intercept. The only possible use I can see is to force an overshoot, but the Cobra cannot be performed with weapons attached. In order to force the overshoot, it would have the enemy right on it's six, and ANY aircraft armed with all aspect IR missiles will already have killed the SU37

Sixth, the Sukhoi's can also do a 120 degree AOA (angle of attack) which they also brag about but fail to comment on how long the aircraft can hold the position. The 120 AOA has only been proven to have been done a few times and only for a few seconds. And that is not opinion...thats simply fact.
On the other hand.......the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's. This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do. Also, the AOA for the F-22 is unlimited even though it has not been tested outside the wind tunnel tests beyond 80 degrees + AOA. Here is a picture of a F-22 doing such a 70 degree AOA upside down. To confirm this, look at the engine heat:

www.codeonemagazine.com...
Finally the Kulbit is just more unnecessary hotdoging which is useless in real world combat situations. A somersault slows you down so much that you could be easily nailed with a missile, or even guns.

The Su-37 is indeed a remarkable aircraft but cannot contend with the F-22's shear technological edge. The Su-37 isn't up there with the F-22 but is infact in a completely different legue like say - the PLAAF- J10 or the Eurofighter . The plane just wasn't built to defeat the F-22 in a one on one dogfight! Because both of them fight differently the F-22 strategy is to fully utilize its stealth and its armament capabilities ( with the improved AMMRAM and all) to engage aircraft. Also the USAF is undoubtedly the best in world when it comes to BVR combat.
The Su-37 would be very good against other mainstream air-craft like the F-16, J-7, Mirage etc which would be easy pickings for the Su-37. The Su-37's manuverability is testement of the designers brilliance but I think was not intended to counter the F-22. Maybe after the MIG 1.42 comes out or the Chinese J-12 comes out they might match up to the F-22 but not the Su-37!
here's a link of the X-31 performing the mongoose- similar to the Super Cobra: www.dfrc.nasa.gov...
A russian general actually challenged the US to this with a proposed war game, but the US never took up the offer. I guess the differance between the two is that the Su-37 has been in the air since 1996.

[edit on 17-12-2004 by IAF101]

How do we know that the Raptor in the photo isn't just doing a loop? I have a photo of a Typhoon in exactly the same attitude but it is looping, I should have posted it and said 'Look a Typhoon doing a Cobra!'

Because waynos, I covered it here before:
The Truth about the Cobra Maneuver

The F-22 in question is doing a

Here is a picture of a F-22 doing such a 70 degree AOA upside down. To confirm this, look at the engine heat...

Also:

...the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's...This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do

Furthermore, the AOA of the F-22 is considered unlimited.



seekerof

I'm not disputing the capabilities of the Raptor, only questioning the value of the photograph as proof of it, simply saying 'look at the engine heat' doesn't prove it does it? It is coming straight out of the back, just like in the Typhoon picture and just how you would expect it to whether in a loop or not, thats all I was saying. It could easily be either.

Here is a video of the F-22 doing a cobra.

"Marvel in Engineering" is the video.

www.f22-raptor.com...#

wat.........thats a cobra, lol, not even close, the Raptor went up like 90 meteres and then it just went down, what the hell, where is the stopping in the stall position, with the engines facing towards the ground, although its pretty impressive how it went 90 metres, and then fell, now the second acrobatic trick

and the second one, isn't even anything, where's the cobra? huh

can u desrcibe UNLIMITED angles of attack for me, i have a vague image, but i just can't picture it, it know its kinda common sense"unlimited angle of attack"

but it just doesn't make sense, it can't be unlimited

The Raptor doesn�t even come close to the Su 37 as far as maneuverability is concerned. Everything I stated in my previous post is plain & simple fact � proven over and over again in numerous displays in its super-maneuverability - not fiction like you claim your Raptors maneuvering capabilities could or can be. You do raise one good point though, an Su 37 most lightly would not perform the Cobra or Super Cobra maneuvers whilst engaging in air to air combat. Further more the Su 37 (Both Super flanker & Berkut) limitless AOA � which I seriously doubt the F-22 is capable of.

Addressing an earlier post by Laxpla � If you call that the cobra maneuver that you must be blind or ignorant.

Regarding the new engines incorporated into the Su 37 � Its powered by AL-37FU engines � which produces a thrust (wet thrust) of 17,900 kg (36,966.5 lbs / 152.27 kn) � the engines thrust-to-weight ratio is around 12:1 and is maneuverable from 45 to +45 degrees along the vertical plane. The thrust vector control is fully integrated into the digital flight control system. The TVC nozzle can be deflected both synchronously and differentially, depending on maneuver. The thrust vector control allows maneuvers at speeds ranging from mach 2.5+ to nearing zero without angle of attack limitations.

The Su-37 can carry up to 20 air-to-air missiles and up to 10,000kg of ordnance. Weapons systems include Vympel R-79E short-range air-to-air missiles, RVV-AE (NATO code name AA-12 Adder) long-range air-to-air missiles; R-73E (NATO codename AA-11 Archer) is an all-aspect, close-combat missile capable of engaging targets in tail-chase or head-on mode at altitudes between 0.02 and 40km. It is also being configured to incorporate the all new BrahMos super-cruise missile which can exceed speeds of mach 7+.

The inlet diameter on the Su-37 is measured at 0.932 meters that differentiate in comparison to the Su-27 and Su-35. The two-dimensional variable geometry multiple-shock intakes utilize movable ramps deflected from the upper intake area. Both the sidewalls and the upper movable ramp are covered with 98,000 holes that form a porous surface to bleed low-energy boundary layer air outboard, via the intake inner and outer side louvers. A meshed titanium screen rises from the bottom of the inlet housing to protect the engines from foreign object damage, during taxi, takeoff, and landing. The screens operate in conjunction with the landing gear. There are 14 independent spring loaded rectangular blow-in doors underneath the inlet that provides auxiliary air on demand and become an excellent primary air flow feed when under extreme angles of attack � which include the famed super cobra maneuver which has been proven possible even in air to air combat at mach 1.2 + speeds, tested at the Saratov airbase. The structural design concept of the aircraft enable it to preform the extreme maneyvers including the cobra maneuver even at super sonic speeds.

Sensors - The aircraft is fitted with a multifunction, forward-looking, NO-21M pulse Doppler phased array radar, which can track up to 35 targets simultaneously and provide target designation and guidance to air-to-air missiles. There is also a rear-looking NIIP NO-25 radar and optronic fire control and surveillance system.

And finally the Su 37 demonstrated at the Farnborough 96 Air show was an initial test bed model, the final version that that is scheduled for production by the end of 2008 will incorporate stealth and super cruise capabilities that by far surpass the Raptors capabilities.


[edit on 18-12-2004 by eastern_block]

eastern block:
Stating the same facts over and over again! What is it you want to convey?
1-Is the Su-37 more technologically superior interms of engines? 2-Does the Su-37 have better technology interms of radar and avionics ?

First Answer,
1)The F-22 was designed so that the Raptor is capable of reaching an extreme angle of attack while still under the pilot's full control. The objective was "carefree abandon" handling, allowing the pilot to exploit a very large alpha/airspeed envelope without losing control of the aircraft. The Raptors is also immune to deep stalls and recover from high alphas, post-stall condition with both engine out and even in post-stall.
2)The F-22's engines produce more thrust than any current fighter engine, especially in military (non-afterburner) power. Called "supercruise," this characteristic allows the F-22 to efficiently cruise at supersonic airspeeds without using afterburners(Mach 1.4 +). This capability greatly expands the F-22's operating envelope in both speed and range over current fighters that must use afterburner to operate at supersonic speeds. Even thought the thrust-weight ratio of the F-22 comes close to the Su-37 its IR signature is almost nil compared to the huge IR signature of the Su-37.
3)To add to this awesome power the F119 Pratt & Whitney is the most reliable engine ever produced because the F119 has 40 percent fewer major parts than current fighter engines, and each part is more durable and does its job more efficiently than any of those designed for previous aircraft because of extensive utilization of CFD. On the other hand Russian aircraft have a great propensity for unreliability. To quote Brig. Gen. Mark D. Shackelford, F/A-22 System Program Office Director, U.S. Air Force " We also congratulate the Pratt & Whitney team on accumulating 4,000 engine flight test hours without a single hiccup. While our test pilots always praise the F119's power and performance, they also consistently refer to its reliability. In fact, they describe it as being 'boringly dependable', and in their line of work that's the highest compliment you can give."Need I say more ?
www.pw.utc.com... www.geocities.com...
As far as weapon loadouts go the F-22 has: For its primary air-to-air role, the F-22 will carry six AIM-120C and two AIM-9 missiles. For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles.
F-22 WEAPONS

Second Answer,
The F-22's avionics and software system is the most advanced ever integrated into an aircraft. It is the first aircraft to use integrated avionics, where the radar, weapons management system and electronic warfare system work as one, giving the pilot unprecedented situation awareness.
The following link has all the details on why it is the BEST.
www.f22fighter.com...
I cannot confirm this, but the F-22 supposedly has an EMP radar.

As to how the hell they are going to make the Su-37 "stealthy" by 2008[production date] I just cannot fathom. AS far as observability [IR & radar] Su-37 is like a Zeppelins and the F-22 is like a dragonfly. To decrease observability it would have to be totally redesigned and its cost would go up ten fold - contradicting its main sales pitch of being an affordable fifth-gen. aircraft.
F-22 RAPTOR

Originally posted by waynos
How do we know that the Raptor in the photo isn't just doing a loop? I have a photo of a Typhoon in exactly the same attitude but it is looping, I should have posted it and said 'Look a Typhoon doing a Cobra!'

Huh waynos again!
By saying " look at the engine Heat" I want to show that it is almost stationary in that position, because if it was throttling vertically the heat from the engine would not be seen so clearly as you see in the picture. Your Typhoon [/AKA Buffoon ] has much more visible exhaust heat compared to the F-22 because the F-22's F119 was designed to meet "No Visible Smoke" criteria. Also if the F-22 was performing a roll you could see the engine nozzels vectoring the thrust clearly![Douh!..]

IAF..

The Raptor does not always use TVC for routine manouvres does it? Also I said Loop not roll, plus don't you think that the EJ200 has to meet criteria like that? Anyone would think that only America knows what its doing when it designs a fighter

Anyway, as others have said, the video does not show Raptor doing a cobra, its more like a tail slide. And you cannot judge whether an aircraft is stationary or not from a photograph.

After all of which I don't think it matters a fig whether it can do one or not. Like I said, my only problem was when a photo is posted, and I know it wasn't the first time, proclaiming 'look at this manouvre!' Its just a photo of a plane and the only thing it proves is that it was off the ground when it was taken. You guys do get wound up when you word is doubted

PS, No visible smoke? So what's going off in the video then?

[edit on 18-12-2004 by waynos]

You mentioned the F-22's speed and range greatly exceed that of other aircraft - lets compare facts than shall we - The Su 37 has a max speed of Mach 3+ which has been proven! Please do let us all know exactly what the max speed of the Raptor is??
The max range of the Su 37 is 5000 km - with a single inflight refueling it is extended to Approx. 6500 km
Regarding avionics, well well... coincidence but the Su 37 also comes equipped with integrated avionics!
You stated that the F 22's engines produce more thrust compared to existing aircraft - Please state firgures not theory. We'll compare the two then. Also please indictate the exact thrust to weight ratio of the F-22, don't say things like it comes close to the Su 37 - close ammounts to second best.
The Su 37's engines have also been completely redesigned to fully comply with its thrust vectoring capabilities. I don't know how you can possibly claim that the F-22 has the most poweful engines in the world, when you know absolutely nothing about the new engines developed to power the Su 37. Please don't take the Su 37 model displayed at the Farnborough 96 Air show, that was by no mean the final product, it was merely a test bed model shown to the public in order to display its super maneuverability. If you take that version of the Su 37 you are then comparing a test bed model Su 37 to a final product F-22, which is by no means a fair comparrison. The Su 37 version displayed at Saratov is a vastly different model as the one you saw at the Farnborough 96 air show - it differs in air frame design (though there are only a few major visible changes), completely different engines, advanced integrated avionics and software designed by Kronstadt, and DRDO - India. Supercruise is a concept that has been envisioned by just about every major country, it is nothing new anymore, take Indias LCA as a prime example of this- for the most part it is an okay aircraft, but when taking its engines into consideration it is truly a master piece - it incorporates supercruise at mach 1.1+.
The element of stealth is not one that only the US has come up with - almost every fighter designed from this point in time onwards will incorporate stealth features as well as integrated avionics, so please don't harp upon these two features as though they are exclusive US technologies. I can assure you the final Su 37 model will be developed with three major factors in mind - super maneuvrability, stealth, and advanced electronic air warfare. Check out the shere computing hardware on the Su 37 and you will have your first glimpse into the future of air to air warfare.
I'm sorry present day Russian aircraft are not unreliable at all, don't confuse them with models from the 60's and 70's. The Su 27+ and MiG 29+ are far more compitent than any of your F-15's, 16's and 18's - okay maybe that was going overboard, but they are definately on par.
So finally please state some figures regarding the F-22's stats and preformance are concerned, don't state theory half of which hasn't even been proven.

[edit on 18-12-2004 by eastern_block]

Ok,The S-37 Berkut(don't confuse that with the Su-37 Super Flanker) can do a Super Cobra manouvre while the F-22 can't. Well,thats true,but the F-22 does not need to do that. The USAF motto is "first look,first shot,first kill".That will be accomplished easily with the F-22. Eastern block, I love the way you are arguing that the S-37 will do a super cobra manouvre to dodge 2 AAMRAAMs and a Sidewinder then fly at mach 3 towards the F-22 before wasting it with the S-37's 30mm cannon

With that in mind,know that the Russian S-37 was designed for manouverablility like all the other Russian planes,while the F-22 was designed for the first shot like all American planes.

[edit on 18/12/04 by W4rl0rD]

And,the LCA is nothing,wait for the Kaveri engine to come out,otherwise it is just an Indian Airframe with American avonics and Pratt and Whitneys contributing to the mach 1.1 supercruise

Originally posted by eastern_block
I'm sorry present day Russian aircraft are not unreliable at all, don't confuse them with models from the 60's and 70's. The Su 27+ and MiG 29+ are far more compitent than any of your F-15's, 16's and 18's - okay maybe that was going overboard, but they are definately on par.
So finally please state some figures regarding the F-22's stats and preformance are concerned, don't state theory half of which hasn't even been proven.

[edit on 18-12-2004 by eastern_block]

Ah! Staggering Ignorance!
You haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about are you? No clue at all!
The Su-37 can do Mach 3 with (pay attention!) AFTERBURNERS and the F-22 can do Mach 1.4+(again pay attention!) without AFTERBURNERS![AKA supercruise] As for figures why do you think I posted those links. From your reply it is clear that you haven't the slightest clue of engineering or physics or airplanes and also you haven't bothered to read the links I have posted or couldn't understand them!

As for integrated avionics- every plane has integrated avionics- even a Cessna![GPS, ILS etc]- Damn! you don't know the first thing you are talking about do you? Read up kid- seriously!

All the "figures" are in the links I posted earlier - look them up !
As for reliability - How many Indian planes crash every year?- 10, 20 30 , .....
Most of them due to technical failures- Face it you buy stuff for cheap you can expect cheap quality!
How many American planes every year?- ZERO !
The LCA can do Mach 1.1+ with REHEAT! what the heck are you talking about being as advanced as an F119 P&W engine!- Dream On!!
They plan to develop supercrusie ability but haven't developed it as yet, also the F-22 has the highest speed without AFTERBURNERS.
BTW They keep saying that the LCA will have this and that but when do they plan to bring it out? - 2075!

[edit on 19-12-2004 by IAF101]

Originally posted by waynos
Anyone would think that only America knows what its doing when it designs a fighter

Wel,l don't they? after designing cutting edge aircraft for over thirty years they must know what they are doing! Also who in their right mind would pay so much for a F-22 if it wasn't the absolute best out there? Not the DoD- Not after facing budget cuts!

PS, No visible smoke? So what's going off in the video then?
[edit on 18-12-2004 by waynos]

I didn't see any thing- their was even a closeup of the nozzel assembly and still no visible smoke[ I am refering to the Marvel of Engineering video ] and also you could see from the video that while the pilot was trimming their was nozzel deflection.

Wel,l don't they? after designing cutting edge aircraft for over thirty years they must know what they are doing! Also who in their right mind would pay so much for a F-22 if it wasn't the absolute best out there? Not the DoD- Not after facing budget cuts!

IAF101 you old rabscallion, are you after the title 'king of the misquote'or did you really misinterpret my comment? I didn't say that the US doesn't know what its doing at all and I think you know that.

I too was referring to the marvel of engineering video and in particular the part where the Raptor comes to a standstill and is then obscured by engine smoke as it begins the tail slide. the last aerial footage before the production line shots.