Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Dima, I am not going to waste any more time on you. And I am not going to waste my time on Venik's ridiculous propaganda, okay? I could care less whether you believe it or not.

And I could care less whether or not you understand anything about ballistic missile defence. Your arguments are worthless, and your blind hatred of anything American comes through in your every remark.

Some of us around here are interested in facts. We don't care about propaganda, and have no particular interest in rubbing a$$es with children.

So by all means, continue begging for information from the Russian forums and reposting their answers here as your own thoughts. And you can quote Venik to your hearts content, because you have earned your place on my ignore list.

Have a nice day.

Yes Engineer you just hit the nail on the head.

Dima is a child and its hard to have a conversation with one who is of an especially closed mind.

A bit of advise Dima. Don't discount others because they have facts that are not to your liking.

I am done with this thread also.

[edit on 12/6/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Dima is 15 years old. I know this for a fact.

Notice the complete lack of F-15 shoot downs.

Here's a question I thought of: How far will the F-22 get over Russian air defense systems versus how far the Su-37 will get over US air defense systems? I say the F-22 would have a slight lead. What do you think?

Now Intelegent Question#1. Askes If Iraq can shoot down 63 U.S. planes including 2F-15's than Nato most probubly DID loss those 388 planes that Yugoslavia claims to have shot down this is an "AMERICAN" site notice the 2F-15's shot down an a F-15 that was DEA (WHAT EVER DEA STANDS FOR) www.rjlee.org...

[edit on 7-12-2004 by SiberianTiger]

Dude, you need to get a real grip on yourself. Where exactly in that link is the evidence that B-2 were shot down? There is simply no way to conceal the loss of so many aircraft.

SO far, the mighty Russian Integrated AA system has been toasted by US and Nato Airpower. *yawn* Boring, got anything else?

What I posted was the U.S. lost 63 planes in Gulf War1 including 2 F-15 E's and countless amounts of F-16/18's now WE know that Yugoslavi's airdefences are much better than Iraqs, now if U.S lost 63 planes to Iraq, THEN SURELY U.S. CAN LOSE way more to Yugo, now Yugo shot down one F-117 which was the second most stelthy plane in the 99 bombing of Yugo, now Yugo also says they shot down more planes this clearly shows that U.S. did lose wwwwaaaaayyyy more planes than they claimed, if U say "no thats not true" I'll go back and REAPEAT it again, IF Iraq is capuble of shooting down 63 U.S. planes which U.S. addmits to, AND U.S. addmits to loosing the F-117 then surly F-15/16/18 are going to be way more easy for Yugo to shoot down, scince they aren't as stelthy as F-117, now if your going to say it was a lucky SA 2-3 shot I'll remind you again "Iraq shot down 63 U.S. planes so surly Yugo should have shot down more", now HOW COME U.S. tells Americans and the World they only lost 3 planes a UAV/F16/and a F-117? and the ANSWER is = U.S.A. is lying threw their teeth they lost what Yugoslavian Military said they lost (388) U.S.A. just doesn't want to be embarressed thats why U.S. says this FANTASTIC LIE "We only lost 3 aircraft" ANYBODY who believe that is crasy

[edit on 7-12-2004 by SiberianTiger]

DEA stands for Direct Enemy Action. Notice that the list has only ONE US AC lost in A2A combat. Compare that to the 25 AC lost by Iraq in A2A battles. The F-15's were using the Migs (including 4 -29's and 2 -25's) for target practice. All 6 were shot down by F-15C's.

Also note that to date the Mig 29 has only two confirmed kills in A2A. The first was in Iraq where the Mig driver shot down his own wingman, then proceeded to commit suicide by flying his plane into the ground trying to evade an F-15C.

The second Mig 29 kill was when a Cuban Mig shot down an unarmed Cessna.

Not exactly a stellar record, is it?

edit to add: That list only has 31 US planes lost, not 63. 30 were due to ground fire.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by engineer]

FACE IS BUDDY U GOT BEET DOWN AND ALL OF YOUR AMERICAN VICTORIES ARE ALWAYS AGAINST 3 WORLD NATIONS AVIONICS AND TACTICS you aint never have nor ever will beet Russian MiG 29 but don't worry we'll have our WW3 soon with you don't you worry a thing keep thinking we are week and we already don't have our 5th Gen Aircrafts like we are going to actually tell you we do!!!

Every time someone mentions American air superiority, the reply is "well, the enemy were crappy pilots". Lol. I guess the US is the only country that knows how to train pilots, yeah that's it...meh.

Mig 29's shot down by US=9
US aircraft shot down by Mig 29's=0

WINNER=USA



[edit on 7-12-2004 by engineer]

It's funny - Tiger, you talk about our victories always being against 3rd world countries.....

Didn'r Ruusia get there buts handed to them by Afghanistan?

The same Afghanistan that the US took, in what, a matter of weeks?

double post

[edit on 7-12-2004 by waynos]

These guys are clearly on a fishing trip, or just infantile. Like the US is going to quietly sustain a loss 388 aircraft

When it comes to comments like 'we are soon going to have our own WW3 with you'. well, what can I say? What do you say to overhyped idiotic kids with more bravado than sense?

Also, about downing a F-117. If the sky is filled with blanket AAA fire and an F-117 flying overhead gets hit, that does not show that it was detected, only that it isn't bukllet proof which was never claimed anyway, anybody can get in a lucky shot.

[edit on 7-12-2004 by waynos]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
It's funny - Tiger, you talk about our victories always being against 3rd world countries.....

Didn'r Ruusia get there buts handed to them by Afghanistan?

The same Afghanistan that the US took, in what, a matter of weeks?

the CIA had long standing relationships with the warlords and paid them to get rid of the Taliban. The USSR on the other hand tried to fight them all and had to pull out... oh and while we are talking about third world countries lets not forget Vietnam. No country is perfect or has a perfect record but believe what you will.

Um, Captain obvious to the rescuse here, buuut:

The US was active, VERY active in Afganistan in the USSR's invasion, so USSR -vs- USA and Afganistani's. Bin Laden sure gave the US a good slappin' though after that. Teach them to trusat Terrorists, its your own fault for not letting the USSR sort it out long ago. Sorry, but it is. He could have been dead by now if you left it alone. Oh, and isn't alot of Afganistan now under warlords and terrorists control again with alot of kidnappings and murders? Yeah, wonderful liberated country there.

And yes, USA has the best record so far. And you have never faced up to a nation as strong as you, as a war with the USSR never happened. Until China has built itself up-to-date its unlikely you ever will. Shame, it would solve alot of these arguments.

And jsut to say something, I am not saying the US forces are badly trained (they ain't up to British standars though, by any means. ) But, the REAL problem in fighting a nation like Afg. / Iraq is that it is a guerilla war, and they won't follow any of these 'rules of engagement' Geneva convention type stuff, but our guys have to. Its a war we cannot win, as for every terrorist we kill we make another 2. Hopefully Bush/Blair will see the light and get out before it's to late.

Originally posted by waynos
Remember, 'stealth' is not a 'thing', like an engine or a gun that either works or doesn't work, stealth is a design objective that is achieved to greater or lesser effect in different aircraft.

Its like when people say 'Typhoon doesn't have stealth'. Nothing 'has' stealth but some aircraft are designed to be stealthy to varying degrees, less so in the Typhoon, Berkut and Super Hornet but more so in the B-2 and F/A-22.

Therefore, going back to the original statement, the Raptor, like any other such plane, has an 'optimal flight profile' where it is at its most stealthy, say cruising at 0.9M in level flight, when it moves outside of this optimal profile its stealthiness doesn't suddenly 'not work' but it is reduced. Most obviously if it lit its burners and accelerated its stealthiness would be totally compromised to IR detectors like PIRATE, if not to radar. The ability to supercruise removes this liability as the Raptor pilot will only need to light his burners if he has already been seen anyway. Kinetic heating of the airframe will still give SOME return for the IR system to look for at supersonic speed but it is very small by comparison and thus the Raptor is still stealthy, only slightly less so than before it accelerated.

However if the Raptor performed a banking turn and exposed its belly to a searching radar then that large flat exposed surface would be picked up much more easily, RAM helps to minimise this weakness but cannot totally eliminate it, this is a manouvre that, if searching for an enemy aircraft BVR the Raptor pilot simply would not do anyway, the pilot consciously maximising his stealth advantage.
If a raptor performed a banking turn in full burner it would be as visible as any other fighter doing the same thing, this is an example of how complex this whole 'stealth' thing is and why to say it doesn't work is simply wrong

obviusly stealth is an concept, everybody knows that, i only try to say that the f22 is not an complete stealth concept, but its design is mainly supercruiser, the shockwave decrease very significantly the rcs (that depends mainly bt ram -not by geometry in the raptor-), quinetic thermal energy is an problem in RAM and compositives, the point here is that the russians, indians and europeans can match the capacities of the raptor, the problem is the market, they just wait and see....

Originally posted by waynos
I hope this is easy to understand for members who do not have English as their first language as I've tried to keep it fairly simple.

i acept that my english is bad, i just try to share my technic knowledge, waynos your behavior is like an weeping girl, who says to her that santa claus dosnt exist....(f22 stealth is not sooo stealth)


again those comparations.....10 f15cs with awacs, satellite, better avionics, better support,etc.... against serbian, irakies,syrians, libians 3-2 migs.., remember the honchos performance in korean war....

american mad, the russians had take the mayority off afganistan, the problem was the taliban controled areas , the same problem of america in this days...


btw plasma covers are cold plasma....







[edit on 7-12-2004 by grunt2]

acept that my english is bad, i just try to share my technic knowledge, waynos your behavior is like an weeping girl, who says to her that santa claus dosnt exist....(f22 stealth is not sooo stealth)

What are you on about? I'll forget the insult but what is that last part supposed to mean and how does it contradict my argument?

The point that I was making was that the Raptor has certain stealth attributes that the pilot will know how to use to his advantage, these advantages are greater than those available to any other fighter pilot. No, the Raptor isn't invisible, obviously, but it is a damn sight less visible than the opposition which, coupled with the advanced radar ad weaponry, will allow the Raptor pilot to get in that crucial first shot. Its as plain as the nose on your face, isn't it?

BTW, I am not American, I am not a rabid fan of the USAF, what I am is pro RAF and pro Typhoon, which I think comes as no surprise to most who know my name on here, so why should I go out on a limb making false claims about the F/A-22

well waynos, if i had made an missinterpretatition, sorry.

lets start again

engineer, go ahead and call me a closed minded person, but in reality, u are the only one wit a closed mind, not even remotely accepting the fact that russian aircraft are equal to american planes, u never take in the circumstances, look at what countries use Russian equipment, so obviously u're going to be superior to them in A2A, but if Russia were to sell their aicraft to a country like Britain, with their amazing training, they would look a lot better, so take that into consideration, the F-22 is a good plane, but for the cost, is worth Ape-#(lol, sry) a minimum of $150 million when it comes out to a maximum of $250 million is just too much for an aircraft that isn't that hard to detect

and i'm not just repreating things from the russian forum, most of these things are bymyself, i have only been on that forum for 1 week

anyways, go ahead, call mea kid thats a dumbass and whatever, all i know is that Venik is just like an other site, that supports a country, like u americans have u're ....... that supports u're arcraft, we have ours, so shutup, and be a man, i'm 15, but at least i try to act like one(quote: u said i'm not even gunna waste time on u anymore, cuz u're thinking u're better than me, thats what america is all about, thinking they are superior, well, i'll be laughing in 15 years when u're economy is half way up the.........................

oh and even Intelgurl states that veniks is a reputable site, u just don't want to admit anything

i'm done

11,381 Soivet Soilders K.I.A. 35,000+ wounded In Action (W.I.A.) 1.1. milion Afgahns Killed Vietnam 58,000+ K.I.A. I don't know how many hundreds of thousands W.I.A. 3.3 million vietnames killed so a closer look Russia didn't get kicked out of Afgah they left sceince Afgahns we not going to be communists if Rus got kicked out they would have left running out but they didn't did they they had a nice neat straight departer with Soivet Flags on thier Carovans, un like U.S. in Vientnam who go litterally kicked out of thier own embassy which we can still see in news archive, and if you want to argue Rus bet antbet and bet those Afgahn up but they still would not become comunist so Rus decided to leave that that. Stinger Missles did not even make a dent in Afgahn war, THAT MORE PROPAGANDA