Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Originally posted by CaptAvatar
What is "Plasma Stealth" anyway, sounds like another marketing ploy to sell aircraft to arab oil nations.

"Plasma Stealth" has nothing to do with reducing RCS on the airframe, inlets, etc. It applies to the radar. If you mount a low temperature plasma screen in front of the antenna, it absorbs some of incoming radar energy and reflects the rest in safe directions. The screen is transparent to the radar when it's switched off.

It's not a "whole aircraft" system, the plasma would dissipate into the airstream if you were to try it on the exterior of a moving AC. Plus, it takes a pretty hefty generator even for a small screen.

The 1.44 uses standard ferro-magnetic RAM in places like the inlets, compressor face, etc. The canopy uses a layered deposition process of metallic coatings and polymers, and the exhaust and afterburners use a ceramic coating.

With the exception of the radar screen, which we take a simpler approach to (except on the 22), this is basically the same way we treat F-16's for reduced RCS.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by engineer]

The Mig 1.4/44 doesn't have curvacious stealth because Russia lacks the design capability to duplicate it, and it doesn't have the manufacturing technology to produce the resulting complex composite airframes and skins. What is "Plasma Stealth" anyway, sounds like another marketing ploy to sell aircraft to arab oil nations.

i know, thats exactly what i said in the post, the MiG 1.42/44 wasn't made for bodily stealth with a curvacious design in mind, it was designed to employ plasma stealth technology, read my post carefully

How are they going to make up a 20 year deficit in technology and development in the areas where they can't compete today? I am talking about design, avionics, radar, reliability/dependability, engine technology, stealth, manufacturing techniques (composites), etc. by 2013? In the 1980's certain operational Mig models still used vacuum tubes in some of the electronics. Once you have the technologies to make an aircraft that could go head to head with a Raptor, it will take 10 - 20 years just to get it developed and deployed. That means that an effective threat to the Raptor from Russion is 20-30 years away, and who knows what the US will have in the air by then, probably anti gravity ships, lol. Most certainly sub-orbital craft that could strike anywhere in the globe within 90 minutes, if these aren't already operating. Most people just don't have any idea the amount of resources and technology that exists in the US Military/Industrial complex.

You say that the F-22 isn't really such a good fighter, that the claims aren't true. You don't provide any evidence to support this statement. National pride is one thing, but the Raptor has nothing to fear from anything Russia will be able to field in the next 25-30 years. The Europeans are a different story . . . But I hope that the US and Europe can make amends over their current differences, the world will be a much safer place.



where'd u get that 20 year crap from, the USSR was far superior to america in the Cold War in terms of technology development, the planes that u are talking about is probably the Su-17 and maybe the MiG-21, which are now all phased out, and i wouldn't be talking if i were u because a MiG-21BIS downed an F-15 in Yugoslavia,okay, so shutup,

now, u are saying 20 years behind in:

Design

this is too general, be more specific

Avionics

yes, russia is behind in Avionics but now that their IT industry is booming extremely rapidly, the gap will be closed very soon, russia is about maybe 7-8 years behind in avionics

Radar

no, russia has the best radar, the only phased array radar in the world is the one used on the MiG-31, and they're coming out with a nerw radar that is even better which is to be used on the T-50

Reliability/Dependability

yes, america has a lead in this field, but only against specific russian planes such as the MiG-29, which requires 11 buttons and switches to be flipped in order to fire ONE AA-11 Archer, but the Su-27 is an awesome lane, easy to take care of, low maintenace and low cost, an example of a high maintenance aircraft in america is the F-14, and the F-22, oh another example from russia is the MiG-25, only 250 hrs. on the engines



Engine

engines, yea america has a slight lead in these, but when the AL-41 comes out, the gap will be closed by a lot, plus they're developing a new engine for the T-50

Stealth

there are many different types of stealth, the "physical" type of stealth that america uses RAM and coat paintings, yes america does have a lead there because russia doesn't pay much attention to it, but plamsa technology, russia is far ahead compared to america

Manufacturing Techniques

this really exemplifies the fact tyat u're knowledge is very limited, russia uses extensive amounts of composites on the S-37

Russia already has a fighter capable of defeating the F-22, the MiG 1.42/44, a full model was produced in 1992, which is not that far away from the first model of the F-22, and by the way, saying that most people don't know how much power the american military machine really has, thats BS because i can easily say that about nearly any country

and russia already has anti-gravity ships, the EKIP, its incredible, america bought it, now u guys see where u et all u're technology from, Saratov secret base, russian equivalent to Area 51, except its actually a secret, lol

F-22=stealth
Su-37=no stealth
Mig-1.44=not in production
T-50=not even constructed

So which of these would you take? The two aircraft that are in actual existence or the two that are going to be built? And which of the two that exist would you take? That which contains stealth capability or the stunt show plane?

hmmm....this thread is just like the "american interceptor" and "russian mfi" thread -without any offence, Dima-, i cant find any objetive comment and i just verify the forum lack of the technic knowledge, the russian still dont have their pakfa, i think that with the defence cuts and the next years market will be another flanker familiy design ,but that dont mean it wont work good in stealth, supercruiser, maneuverability, etc...., anyway thats the russian way....wait and see.....the f22 will enter in service maybe in 2010, right now its serving partial service (like in the f104 development)

[edit on 5-12-2004 by grunt2]

the MiG 1.42/44 is already constructed and MiG corporation is doing further tesats on it, the program has been revived, and where the is the Su-47 in that list, it is both up for purchase and has stealth, i'm talking about the future, russia will have a counter to the F-22, they do right now, but they will have a better counter in about 5 years, the T-50 is superior to the F-22

the F-22's stealth, finally found something, can be detected by bistatic radars and passive radars, also, u can triangluate the coordinates of the aircraft using multiple radars at once, like a com-link, i think they have it on the Su-30MKI, i don't know which pplanes they have it on, going to do some reasearch

Originally posted by Dima
the F-22's stealth, finally found something, can be detected by bistatic radars and passive radars, also, u can triangluate the coordinates of the aircraft using multiple radars at once, like a com-link, i think they have it on the Su-30MKI, i don't know which pplanes they have it on, going to do some reasearch

Oh, please. Dima, you are just embarassing yourself. Bistatic radar systems (used for doppler weather radar systems) are by nature fixed installations. Besides that, tell us one single bistatic system tied into a SAM network.

In addition, their locations are known, these are large installations, and cannot be hidden from nosy satellites. They would be counted into any threat assessment. Take out one receiver, and you have disabled the entire system.

How are you going to protect these from a JASSM launched from 1000 km away?

Passive systems, meh. We've had these since the 50's. They rely on the target being a transmitter. The raptor communicates via tight beam to satellites, how is your ELINT system going to target the F-22? You think you are going to hack a Raptor's comlink? Oh, BTW, you forgot to tell us about the cell phone radars...

Yeah, we're just "stoopid americans"...

Just a suggestion, why don't you just go back to your friends in the Russian forum and have them come here and debate this with us? All you are doing is parroting their replies anyway...

www.rfforces.com...

Geez...some kids...


[edit on 5-12-2004 by engineer]

Originally posted by engineer
Just a suggestion, why don't you just go back to your friends in the Russian forum and have them come here and debate this with us? All you are doing is parroting their replies anyway...
www.rfforces.com...

Are we at a restaurant? Cause somebody just got served

engineer,

Yeah, we're just "stoopid americans"...

maybe, stealth geometry-ram dont work good against low frecuency, radar stealth and ir stealth dont work at supercruiser (shockwave-full power engine (i know, without AB)), it only work at medium-high radar frecuency, the triangulation is made with the movable sams (sa6,10,etc...) passive radar sensors, with an main powerful radar, its a network babe, its a network


russians are testing plasma "covers" ,ram,supercruiser engines etc on su37-35,they have an special facility to test plasma covers (and eventually produce) ,they will use an combination of those technologies in the future pakfa, the problem is the f22 uncertainty, tomorrow comes an democrat goverment an cancell the proyect, the suckoi needs the f22 "success" to the pakfa development, right now they are working together with the indians and israel, but even those guys are waiting, thats the business world..


again,i dont see any strong concept of stealth in the f22, yes it have angled surfaces,ram,etc, but the design is mainly supercruiser, if youre an aerospace engineer you must know that.

Dima, this could be the most factually incorrect post I have ever seen on ATS. Congrats! I have seen bad, but this is just atrocious. I'd rather not deal with it, but I can't just turn a blind eye to such blatant ignorance...

Originally posted by Dima
where'd u get that 20 year crap from, the USSR was far superior to america in the Cold War in terms of technology development, the planes that u are talking about is probably the Su-17 and maybe the MiG-21, which are now all phased out, and i wouldn't be talking if i were u because a MiG-21BIS downed an F-15 in Yugoslavia,okay, so shutup,

First off, the USSR was behind in the cold war overall. They were specifically behind in electronics, though you can be sure they were behind in air power. The SR-71 is the perfect example.

now, u are saying 20 years behind in:

Design

this is too general, be more specific

Specifically, they still can't build the airframes that are both stealthy and high performing. They lack construction techniques and design.

Avionics

yes, russia is behind in Avionics but now that their IT industry is booming extremely rapidly, the gap will be closed very soon, russia is about maybe 7-8 years behind in avionics

They were behind 7-10 years DURING THE COLD WAR. Then they collapsed. Now it's 20 years.

Radar

no, russia has the best radar, the only phased array radar in the world is the one used on the MiG-31, and they're coming out with a nerw radar that is even better which is to be used on the T-50

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!! That was the best joke I have heard in a while!!!!!
Wait - it wasn't a joke?????
In that case....

AN/MPQ-53

The AN//MPQ-53 phased array radar carries out search, target detection, track and identification, missile tracking and guidance and electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) functions. The radar is mounted on a trailer and is automatically controlled by the digital weapons control computer in the Engagement Control Station, via a cable link. The radar system has a range of up to 100km, capacity to track up to 100 targets and can provide missile guidance data for up to nine missiles.

AN/SPY-I

The AN/SPY-l radar system is the primary air and surface radar for the Aegis Combat System installed in the Ticonderoga (CG-47) and Arleigh Burke (DDG-51)-class warships. It is a multi-function phased-array radar capable of search, automatic detection, transition to track, tracking of air and surface targets, and missile engagement support.

Even more scary (for you) is that the RAPTOR will use a revolutionary Radar system:

AN/APG-77

The F-22's Northrop Grumman/Texas Instruments-built AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of over 1000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.

How do you like your crow? Raw?

Reliability/Dependability

yes, america has a lead in this field, but only against specific russian planes such as the MiG-29, which requires 11 buttons and switches to be flipped in order to fire ONE AA-11 Archer, but the Su-27 is an awesome lane, easy to take care of, low maintenace and low cost, an example of a high maintenance aircraft in america is the F-14, and the F-22, oh another example from russia is the MiG-25, only 250 hrs. on the engines

The F/A-22 was designed with minimal maintenence as possable (again, for a 100 million dollar aircraft).

www.globalsecurity.org...

In addition to greater lethality and survivability, the F-22 design calls for higher reliability, maintainability, and sortie generation rates than the aircraft it will replace. The design goal for all areas is a 100 percent improvement over the F-15 weapon system.

Engine

engines, yea america has a slight lead in these, but when the AL-41 comes out, the gap will be closed by a lot, plus they're developing a new engine for the T-50

Russia still can't get an aircraft to cruise at Mach 3 like the US did IN THE NINETEEN SIXTIES!!!!! 'nough said!

Stealth

there are many different types of stealth, the "physical" type of stealth that america uses RAM and coat paintings, yes america does have a lead there because russia doesn't pay much attention to it, but plamsa technology, russia is far ahead compared to america

Again, false on both acounts.

See this thread...Plasma stealth: Past, Present, and Future

You will notice that the B-2 already uses a form of this...thats 1980's technology - another 20 year gap. Also, while Russia is working on HOT plasma, the US is working on COLD plasma...guess which one heat seeker missles like more????

Bla bla bla....

and russia already has anti-gravity ships, the EKIP, its incredible, america bought it, now u guys see where u et all u're technology from, Saratov secret base, russian equivalent to Area 51, except its actually a secret, lol

IT WAS A SECRET DIMA UNTILL YOU TOLD US ABOUT IT!!!!
YOU HAVE BETRAYED THE RUSSIANS DIMA!!!!!!! THE KGB IS GUNNA GET YOU!!!!!



Now EVIL America that is so far behind can spy on you're precious superior Russian technology!!!!!!!!!


EDIT: messed up quotes



[edit on 5-12-2004 by American Mad Man]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by Dima
Blackout, stay tuned to current global economic trends, rusia's economy is skyrocketing, they have resumed the MiG 1.44/1.42 project, the Su-47 is up for purchasing and theire developing AYAKS, in addition with another 3 or 4 hypersonic planes, so, don't tell me that the russian aviation insudtry is dead, russia will have a counter way before 2020, probably around 2007/2008-2010

I never stated that the Russian aviation industry was dead. Where did you happen to draw that presumption from?

I was simply stating that Russia does not have the money to complete certain projects that it would like to. I can't recall at the moment what their F-22 counter is to be named, but it's commonly accepted that they will develop this counter well after any other country that's currently developing it at this moment.

Don't get me wrong, Russia's economy is growing, but it's still a relatively poor country. Its main source of income is through weapon sales. That market can only last so long, as Russia's customers will seek more advanced weapons than the Cold War era weapons that are currently being sold. Even China, Russia's biggest customer, is now beginning to FUND Russia's projects rather than just buying weapons as China is obviously seeking more advanced weaponry.

You also need to be careful with your wording. Russia's economy is not "skyrocketing." A revival in Russia's aerospace industry because of foreign funding and some relatively small internal funding here and there is far from what characterizes a "skyrocketing" economy. A lot of Sukhoi scientists are working for foreign countries now because of the low wages in Russia.

Even if Russia can finish the aircraft projects you've listed above, Russia itself will still be of little threat. Russia's crippled economy since the collapse of the Soviet Union and its future projected weapons sales decrease will only mean that these planes will probably be serviced in small numbers.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by engineer
Just a suggestion, why don't you just go back to your friends in the Russian forum and have them come here and debate this with us? All you are doing is parroting their replies anyway...
www.rfforces.com...

Are we at a restaurant? Cause somebody just got served

Hahahaha!

That's classic!

For a site apparently dedicated to informed arguments we still see statements like this;

maybe, stealth geometry-ram dont work good against low frecuency, radar stealth and ir stealth dont work at supercruiser (shockwave-full power engine (i know, without AB)), it only work at medium-high radar frecuency,

Remember, 'stealth' is not a 'thing', like an engine or a gun that either works or doesn't work, stealth is a design objective that is achieved to greater or lesser effect in different aircraft.

Its like when people say 'Typhoon doesn't have stealth'. Nothing 'has' stealth but some aircraft are designed to be stealthy to varying degrees, less so in the Typhoon, Berkut and Super Hornet but more so in the B-2 and F/A-22.

Therefore, going back to the original statement, the Raptor, like any other such plane, has an 'optimal flight profile' where it is at its most stealthy, say cruising at 0.9M in level flight, when it moves outside of this optimal profile its stealthiness doesn't suddenly 'not work' but it is reduced. Most obviously if it lit its burners and accelerated its stealthiness would be totally compromised to IR detectors like PIRATE, if not to radar. The ability to supercruise removes this liability as the Raptor pilot will only need to light his burners if he has already been seen anyway. Kinetic heating of the airframe will still give SOME return for the IR system to look for at supersonic speed but it is very small by comparison and thus the Raptor is still stealthy, only slightly less so than before it accelerated.

However if the Raptor performed a banking turn and exposed its belly to a searching radar then that large flat exposed surface would be picked up much more easily, RAM helps to minimise this weakness but cannot totally eliminate it, this is a manouvre that, if searching for an enemy aircraft BVR the Raptor pilot simply would not do anyway, the pilot consciously maximising his stealth advantage.

If a raptor performed a banking turn in full burner it would be as visible as any other fighter doing the same thing, this is an example of how complex this whole 'stealth' thing is and why to say it doesn't work is simply wrong. I hope this is easy to understand for members who do not have English as their first language as I've tried to keep it fairly simple.

Well said Waynos

When talking about stealth, it is only fair to do so in comparison with other aircraft. In any case, the Raptor is the fighter with the most stealthy characteristics, and as such because of both it's advanced design and the cost to build such a design, will most likely not be challanged for many years.

bistatic radars are known as hen houses in russia and control the ABM system there, go ahead, send u're JASSM, a SAM will intercept it and the triangulation, i wasn't talking about hacking into the com-link of an F-22, i was talking about how 3 aircraft for example can use their radars to give a general location for the target, like a network, i believe that the Su-30MKI has this ability, it can communicate with 3 or 4 other aircraft, i don't know any others

and what happens if the software on an F-22 crashes? huh, thats a downed F-22

just wondering, have there been any instances where the software/fly-by-wire of an aircraft has crashed while in flight?

Originally posted by Dima
bistatic radars are known as hen houses in russia and control the ABM system there,

Wrong. Russia's only effective ABM system is the S-400. It uses a mobille phased array radar, either the 64N6 Tombstone or the 96L6E.

and F-22 FBW systems are quadruple redundant.

[edit on 6-12-2004 by engineer]

is that the only example, russia was behind because of SR-71, thats pathetic, russia was far ahead, look at first satellite in sapce, first man, longest run in space, longest accumulation of hours in space, first space station, they would've been the first peeps to have a supersonic aircraft, unrivalled MiG-15 technically(korean and chinese pilots were the reason why the north koreans lost the air war, no experience and bad training, rati was not 10:1, more like 4:1), MiG-21 most exported plane EVER, shot down a F-15, MiG-25 fastest fighter plane in the world, Su-25 most capable attack aircraft in the world, MiG-29 one of the most agile fighters in the world, rightfully feared, Su-27 and varations are astonishing aircraft to say the least, by far the best in the world other than F-22, Su-33 best naval aircraft in the world, Su-27 and variants extremely agile, first forward swept fighter plane up for purchase, most powerful nuclear missile, first ABM missile defense, only country other than South Korea to be able to Cold Launch missiles(Korea discovered this in 2003 russkies had it since 70's), obvious lead in plasma research, arguably best air-to-air missiles in the world, an awesome air-to-ground missile Kh-31....wel yea, i don't know much about russia's ground weapons and naval weapons other than russian tanks employ ERA, they use the Sunburn missile, i don't know.......................

but it is true that the ussr was behind in electronics, the ussr could build high performance designs(look at the MiG-29 and variants as well as the Su-27 and variants) and their development in stealth technology using plasma is very advanced they prefer plasma over RAM and coat paintings

yes, they are behind in avionics yet are making up for it recently with working with Inida and even by themselves, theb russian IT market is expected to boom about 20% this year

F-22 designed for minimal maintenance my ass, lol, sry, but every and any stealth aircraft requires above-average maintenace just to keep it stealthy, the slightest wrong thing that could go wrong, even a piece of tape sticking out would increase its radar signature, u have to be very careful, someone gave me a link, on the F-22, i was reading about this

did u say that america had a plane that could supercruise at Mach 3? in the sixties, give me a link curious

Russia is also working on Cold Plasma, the americans have been trying to buy this tchnology and entice russian scientists so that they can go ahead in this field, Boeing even wanted the "head" russian scientist to work for them

B-2 uses plasma? what, give me a link i've never heard of this before

blackout, rusia doesn't rely on military contracts for a large portion of thier economy, on the contrary, it is a very small one, only about $5.4-5.5 billion that was last year, they rely heavily on raw materials, and since the oil prices have been going up, and as the demand increases, russia will be eraning billions, their national treasury is 50% larger than it was expected this year, and investments in the country are literally skyrocketing, i read russian news everday from 5 different websites, the increase in investment has grown 20% and they moved up a new level into i thin it was the yellow or green, which means it is safe to invest in their economy right now because of stability

Hey Dima. The cold war is over. The Soviets lost in case you forgot. The Migs and Sukhoi figters are good aircraft. Just not good enough to win otherwise you would not be in Canada because you would not have been allowed to leave Mother Russia. Don't tell me that its not true. Tell the dead persons who were hanging in the wire trying to cross to freedom.

Don't hang onto the past young one.

engineer, stick to aircraft, because u don't know what u're talknig about, the S-400 is a SAM system, not an ABM system here's a site that says what missiles Moscow's ABM system uses

russianforces.org...