Is Capitalism itself a Conspiracy?

Im an American, and I've been hearing my whole life how Capitalism is the only way.

I'm not suggesting state run communism so a lot of y'all can un-load, but I AM questioning the system. it may not be quite what we think it is

for example, many employees and small business owners i know not only revere capitalism, but THINK THAT THEY ARE CAPITALISTS THEMSELVES.

Capital
en.wikipedia.org...(economics)

from the wiki link

In a fundamental sense, capital consists of any produced thing that can enhance a person's power to perform economically useful work—a stone or an arrow is capital for a caveman who can use it as a hunting instrument, and roads are capital for inhabitants of a city. Capital is an input in the production function.

Capitalism
en.wikipedia.org...

from the wiki link

Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.

So CAPITAL is the literal "march of progress" that you heard about in grade school. Seeing an ox in the field is an event, hunting an ox for the tribe is a party, but breeding oxen and making them plow is CAPITAL. Now the plowing is gonna be a lot easier for generations to come.

but what if someone OWNS the oxen? It is easy to see that bad use of a tribal property custom could hamper the tribe. Lets say Joe breeds Oxen. does he trade them? does he allow US to use them? can they only be obtained from joe for rental at joes prices? what about future instances of live oxen capture? can i get my own? or did we reward joes ingenuity with a patent, making it against the law for me to do as joe did, even though we all know how, since joe showed us...

Heres Monty pythons take on farming restrictions in old britain, set to 70s pop music. sure its a joke, but its a joke about the fact that the Lord owns the oxen, and nobody plows without his say so.

www.youtube.com...

now social restrictions like that are why a lot of people decided to try the american way. freedom and the future guarantee of freedom via the strength of the democratic republic.

hey wait a minute? what about capitalism? i thought that was inherently american? is it? read on and decide...

from the wiki link (again)

Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production...

private ownership of capital, private ownership of the means of production. I guess then in an ideal capitalist system (extrapolating here) ALL capital would be in private hands. If you think about it, we are almost there already.

Consider that the average American is not physically or legally capable of doing almost ANYTHING that our forefathers would regard as domestic requirements without appealing to outsiders for power and authority (monty python again)

I mean that, you cant dig a well, you dont have the land or the tools, and if you tried, the gov would show up. ever build a wall? no one builds walls anymore, homes are built by COMPANIES. companies are owned by rich people. rich people call themselves capitalists.

Im at work one day and a self described "ardent republican" tells me that the problem with SOCIALISTS is that they are not willing to WORK FOR THEMSELVES. which is why he, republican, was a religious CAPITALIST.

I blinked in confusion and pointed out that the whole point of CAPITALISM is that the CAPITALIST avoids labor by throwing his CAPITAL at the market in place of himself. this requires a poor person like HIM to pick up the slack and operate the rich mans tool. for a fraction of what that tool generates.

SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS ARE NOT CAPITALISTS. y'all have been fibbed at. SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS ARE ALL THATS LEFT OF OLD FASHIONED REGULAR FREE AMERICANS

A Capitalist does not own or run a small business, Capitalism is about controlling the means of production, and restricting said means for the exclusive profit of the few.

In a chat with a Libertarian pal, the USA medical system was described as the pinacle of successful capitalism. American Medicine, he told me, was simply the finest on the planet. I pointed out that it didnt matter much since no one can afford such care.

he pointed out that the machines are very rare and that the doctors are highly trained. I said, OK where did those machines and doctors come from? why dont we simply MAKE MORE.

he had no response to this, so i asked the same question again, why not make MORE of this good stuff? and then let people USE IT?

The libertarian spoke the truth, he said that proliferation of such tools and techniques would water down the victory of their inventors and controllers, lowering their profits and their importance.

i said NO WAY lets take a bunch of that IRAQ WAR MONEY and order a dozen of everything that youre telling me is too expensive for the common man. AMERICA IS AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL NATION WE CAN DO IT IF WE WANNA.

HE SAID BUT THAT WOULD BE SOCIALISM, as if a bad word makes a good idea stupid

here we have it. what are the means of production actually for? are they for the people who actually operate them? or are they for a much smaller group of people, to be used for private enrichment and social elevation?

In archeology 101 they told me that in order to step out of the pool of ordinary tribal males and become a "bigman" it was critical to capture and control a tribal resource. monopoly. capitalism.

didnt we make monoploy illegal? HMMMM why did we do that? I thought that capitalism was the american way?

Since Capitalism is a system that relies on the private ownership of CAPITAL and its restricted use for PROFIT, it could be argued that the system lowers the performance of society across the board. This is even easy to see when you realize that Capital is productive power, and it is only being used for limited profit. See? Thats easy to see.

The reason for everything we do as a people changes. Consider almost any social problem you can think of, why is it that way? usually money, which is only social power, which is the people when you get right down to it.

Now i know i used a dirty word up there SOCIALISM... gimme a minute here. people like to bring up Stalin, Lenin, all these bastards, and then ask me how i DARE to talk about the S word.

I respond that those guys were dictator A-holes, if you want to see what Im calling socialism, go to your library. Or wave to the guys at the firehouse. Thats good social engineering. An old leftist comedian Barry Crimmons, used to joke that he was picked up by a public bus, and driven over public roads, to a public school, so that he could learn about the evils of socialism. priceless.

As we step into the future new processes will become available to mankind, or will they? a capitalist might swallow them up in the name of status quo, some say we're there already with petro companies and "free" energy.

A capitalist wouldnt even need to see the evil in this desicion, it is, after all, in line with the philosophy of controlling the means of production for profit.

Dr. Salk gave his vaccine away, is he a socialist or a hero?

python

www.youtube.com...

I guess my thesis is that capitalism itself can interfere with free markets, in fact that is its goal, a degree of social control is required to pull it off. who will provide labor inputs for an absentee profiteer if we all owned our own "means of production"?

40 acres and a mule anyone?

in short, most self described american "capitalists" are actually employee debtors.

not that long ago these "capitalists" were free people themselves, now they are not capitalists, but rather...

THEY ARE CAPITAL

we employees are productive inputs for the folk that own the stuff we use to do what we do.

and lately, it seems that our masters are getting stingy with the stuff

The truth is that the people are afraid of any real change so they'll continue to make excuses for why we shouldn't improve this nation. Watch and see if this doesn't become a circular argument, well that is of course if it goes anywhere. People have been trained to love and fear their leaders and until they start to wake up that is how it shall remain.

Its is only if there are people outside the system. If the referee is impartial, then no. If there is a class of people, who can print themselves money, while there is a class of people who have to work for it, then its a form of slavery perpetuated by a tiny minority against everyone.

A lot of people decry the fact, that capitalism forces people to work and makes the creation of wealth and families who ascend to aristocracy harder through inflation, but that is what ensures that people are productive.

What we need is that the bottom be regulated. Without intervention, people at the bottom have to compete against each other, until they work 14 hours a day every day just to make ends meet.

well said

i was wondering if anyone would connect the "capitalists" who have un freed our free market with the banking industry

im not a true libertarian, i like the fire department too much, but i will admit the advantage of a free market. the problem is that free markets, like good communism, only seem to exist on paper.

the answer has to be somewhere in the middle.

i mean seriously, in grade school i learned that the life of "pure competition" was the pre civilized state called barbarism. while civilization is, by definition, a social system that allows for the sharing of resources.

but heres a sad thing, while we ardently avoided enough proper social programs to avoid being called a socialist nation...

We STILL ended up with a central authority thats bungling our economics for the gain of a few

but your point in particular about the ones who can create their own money that we compete for is one of the most egregious examples of the abuse of our "free markets"

Op, you are correct. Capitalism is bull#. And communism is too. Why cant we all be sovereign people? You want a house? Thats how it was for thoussands of years. For example, jesus was supposedly a carpenter. If he was about to start a project, what would his first step be? Ah, a trip to home depot to buy some 2x4s! Yeah! Most likely these guys had to cut trees down, make boards out of them......

Theres a rest area in....i want to say utah.....theres an old tool shed thats been saved as a bit of an exhibit there. Has a waterwheel to power whatever......the tool shed absolutey looks like #. But its a tool shed, lol. Its obvious as day that the planks used on it were handmade. Unevenly cut even....

Henry ford was a capitalist. But look how he started out. He built his first car in a shed and had to make the door wider to get it out....lmao. oh dear, look at all the bs youd have to go through to make a living makong cheap cars these days. Cars can be built for around 1000 dollars by the way.

reply to post by uwascallywabbit


Every organized system can be viewed as conspiracy. Capitalism like many many others...

The only "ism" that works is anti corruptism
I guess 2000 years of, my system is better than yours, just made us even more in the dark.
Ever saw the docu "Corporation" ? Our officials had to make us believe Jesus was ok with capitalism.
So the church needed to be cool with it too, so its safe to say yes,

No its not a conspiracy, captalism is what we just called what occured over time as laws and markets changed. I disagree most of the OP but I'll just comment on some of it.

As we step into the future new processes will become available to mankind, or will they? a capitalist might swallow them up in the name of status quo, some say we're there already with petro companies and "free" energy.

If that was anywhere near true, railroads would of throttled Henry Ford before he got big. You have the opposite occurring of new technology and new industries being looked at because guess what, they'll make more money especially if the new product everybody needs. And that's what we see time and time again, your conspiracy theory would work better if technology and goods and services didn't advance more rapidly in capitalist countries.

I guess my thesis is that capitalism itself can interfere with free markets, in fact that is its goal, a degree of social control is required to pull it off. who will provide labor inputs for an absentee profiteer if we all owned our own "means of production"?

Monopoly can interfere with free markets, communitarian wishful thinking is even worst at deciding what to make or produce.

reply to post by Koffee


well reasoned, i think between your post and the guy who mentioned the fraction lending banksters i can see more of the light

capitilism isnt small business id still say, but a good small businessman could advance toward capitalist status, in fact i see that as the goal of most in the system

as long as that is actually possible, IM IN. who wouldnt to relax a bit and enjoy the fruits of their hard labor?

i agree that our freedoms have advanced us faster in the west, hard to argue otherwise

but there has to be a way to stop a successfull capitalist from becoming a monopolist and un freeing segments of the market.

i think that revamping our banking system is the FIRST MOVE

And as a note, I understand that capitalism is almost religiously adhered to in america, but it evolved over time because it was an improvement over what it replaced

there will be an improvement over capitalism as well, it is up to us to somehow reward human ambition, and at the same time, make sure that the tribe moves forward as well the tribal inovator who brought us this advance

a reply to: uwascallywabbit
lookin at this post almost 10 yrs i feel like i capitulated without reason.

capitalism WILL be improved upon. Capitalism REALLY IS about impoverishing a "useful segment" of the demographic.

now it is almost a decade after the thread i made, but i have to ask you:

Are you more capable yet?

It has been 9 years or so, can the average American dig a well? Is the answer still NO?

I voted Trump so dont come at me with any anti DNC BS.

i know this thread is old but almost 10 yrs later, the question still rings..

Is CAPITALISM itself a conspiracy?

any new thoughts on this vintage thread are appreciated

a reply to: uwascallywabbit

Are you not capable?

who instructs your masters to lie?

can you not merely dig wells and build walls?

do you not understand your responsibilities and your requirements?

i'm in danger of sounding pedantic, but please imagine that it is 1000 years ago, and I, a traveler, am trying to tell you about another place.

the local rules do not apply

imagination runs rampant

good ideas are shared.

peace out for now... backatchalater

The problem with capitalism is it does not care for the environment.
Coupled with a political system which is corrupt that allows back handers and bribery to occur.
This means that crimes are happening against the planet and other people yet no-one is accountable for it.
There has to be a middle ground. In the UK we have (had) a strong socialist movement in the past which has brought free healthcare to everyone, although we are in danger of losing it.
Capitalism lead to the US model where healthcare is only for the rich.
Which is the better system?

a reply to: Dr X
thanks for the response, i felt a bit guilty bumping such an old thread.

IM NOT ANTI CAPITALIST..

meaning that im not down with commies or antifa

im happy that the usa economy is moving a bit better under Trump.

what im trying to do is stimulate thought surrounding the following idea:

Capitalism replaced less efficient models and will be replaced by a more efficient model, once discovered.


It must be replaced because its raison detre is not as advertised. Capitalism is lowering our collective efficiency by using our natural resources to produce PROFIT, instead of UTILS.

Profit = good a minority, UTILS = good for any citizen.