Why I Can NOT Imagine Aliens Being Hostile

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by quantumfluctuation

Originally posted by Blue Shift
once you solve the problem of unlimited power, you don't have to be efficient, and you can concentrate on killing everyone who doesn't believe in the same god you do

A very astute point regarding the post-efficiency civilisation

Analogously speaking, if we humans engineered a source of unlimited energy then our civilisation would be transformed. Most people would be relieved from the burdens of poverty, the working day would be shortened or even eradicated for many people, and industrial production may devolve into a range of hobbyist pursuits, once we have our matter compilers, like with the open source software movement

Says who? Compared to ancient times, the energy contained in liquid hydrocarbons is enormous, but does it eliminate the burdens of poverty and is the working day shortened? Sure is, if you're rich.

The working day has shortened significantly since the discovery of fossil fuels prior to which people would often work 12 hours a day or more and there were no weekends; just Sunday morning for church

Economies used to be mostly pyramid-shaped, with a few rich people at the top and many working-class people at the bottom, but now most developed countries have ellipse-shaped economies with a burgeoning middle class, even fewer rich billionaires at the top and a minority underclass of people living in the most biting poverty

Due to that burgeoning middle class we are on average much more affluent but, without some breakthrough towards unlimited energy, peak oil may send us back to the pyramids

reply to post by quantumfluctuation


Sometimes I can't believe what people write.

The middle class in developing countries has been almost eroded into oblivion, look to the USA statistics on the middle class evolution or in most of Europe.

After an initial boom created by the free trade that permitted an optimization of the exploitation of the worlds resources (food, wood, energy and minerals) the second stage has resulted not on the general leveling of the playing field but on a move to a model where big corporations have started to controls the primary sector (the resources gathering) and the secondary sector (transformation, industrial production). Because globalization resulted in optimization the socialized workers that constitute by far the large portion of the middle class have in part become superfluous and had to adopt a more versatility (reduced job security), resulting in lower wages and a general reduction on the standards of living to the general population. This affected the tertiary sector (services), again and even more than the transformation (that meanwhile has been moving to other nations because of lower price of manpower and fewer regulations), the service sectors is by default the core of the middle class. In fact the agglutination of economic power in the top has resulted in what we see today economic control over nations by those in control of the money.

What we are witnessing in a civilizational retrogress, in part a necessity since the living standard where not based on reality but the result is that the middle class that should have been more than half of the population of the first world is less that a fifth (and dwindling), people are losing their jobs left and right and job security in inexistent today something that prevents a middle class to form (the middle class is mostly a direct result of education, to a fewer degree inheritance).

I don't get the whole benevolent aliens theory much, I guess in some utopian dream they may well be, but has there been any evidence that they are somehow benevolent? I know the evidence for ET is limited and superficial at best, but even that evidence hints at anything benevolence. What with reports of abductions and human experimentation. I think the best we can hope for is indifference.

I think that the rules of nature that guide a planets development, or more importantly the development of life upon it comes down to simple factors the will be replicated on each and every planet, that is the most intelligent, the strongest and most violent species will dominate. There is a reason why buffalo and bison don't rule the planet. The king of the jungle is a predator. An eco system needs more than one source of life, and the most intelligent and resourceful will survive the best and I think that rule will apply on every planet that develops life, millennia of genetic development to survival does not just disappear.

If ET makes a big appearance then watch out, because ET wants something, he aint coming out of humanity, after all he isnt human

reply to post by PrinceDreamer


I would go even further, the scarce evidence we have is that if they exist and are here as many report, they have shown no indication to care much about humans in general, at best some reports state some concerns about the planet well being not humanity.

In fact there are many number of deaths linked to ET reports, even people who suicide after events. In general if any direct impact can be attributed (by what is reported) it has a negative even if mostly seem unintentional.

I really like this thread. That's a very perceptive point of view you have and one which I share.

As things are mastered, as in the need for thirst hunger space transportation danger, it allows the individual/group to pursue other courses; entertainment, science, medicine, nature, etc. Take America for example; the spoiled baby of the world. The only bully on the block who isn't ready to fold his hand and give his chips over. How much we take for granted yet, our inner passions, desires and expressions are sought after, hopefully found, and is supportive to community in her own regard as well as her personal life and all in all, lives happy. Some know NOTHING of it. Most Americans don't necessarily have to WORRY about water, food, and a home every day. How the balance is there, how technology can potentially change it all. That is why "they" horde it, in my opinion.

But first the truth, then education and hopefully progress, and one day, a Utopia of our own. S+F

We'd be of as much interest and use to any truely advanced civilisation as a discarded peanut shell is to us.

I doubt if we'd even register on their radar.

Anyone capable of such inter-stellar travel would have technological know how coming out of their ears.

I seriously doubt they could find anything here they couldn't already manufacture by the bucketload if they so wanted.

It'd be like stepping on an ant and without even realising or caring.

They'd have much more interesting folk to mingle and party with than us plebs.

reply to post by Panic2k11


Fair point, the current economic crisis and the globalisation of labour has started to erode the middle classes. I understand that over in the States this is of particular concern

However I would point out, perhaps somewhat optimistically, that India and China have reached a point of saturation in terms of people moving from rural areas to the big cities

The great era of mass migration through the late 1990s and into the 2000s has waned and, due to stricter border controls, may not re-commence with such vigour

Ironically we may now start to see some improvement for ordinary Westerners as the global labour market stabilises

However I would still contend that energy is the driving force of modern economies and left unchecked we may have another big crisis a decade from now

Originally posted by Littlejohnny1
We'd be of as much interest and use to any truely advanced civilisation as a discarded peanut shell is to us.

I doubt if we'd even register on their radar.

Anyone capable of such inter-stellar travel would have technological know how coming out of their ears.

I seriously doubt they could find anything here they couldn't already manufacture by the bucketload if they so wanted.

Except for biological resources.

reply to post by quantumfluctuation

However I would point out, perhaps somewhat optimistically, that India and China have reached a point of saturation in terms of people moving from rural areas to the big cities

This is nothing new, I haven't fallowed much of what happens in India (socially) but the slums problem is endemic and will never be solved, it is not particular a economic problem but a cultural problem . One can look for instance to China for comparison (or other regional neighbors) that do not share the core culture.

I do not see a solution in the best of cases for India's social problems unless not in the next 150 years or more. I doubt that your initial erroneous claims about to the middle class would even apply to India since even if number of population in the middle class ha been growing due to the recent economic boom, as a percentage of the general population it has probably decreased. Most of the economic opportunities are in areas that do not benefit a middle class, even by how it is defined in India.

The middle class is a class of people in the middle of a societal hierarchy. In Weberian socio-economic terms, the middle class is the broad group of people in contemporary society who fall socio-economically between the working class and upper class. The common measures of what constitutes middle class vary significantly between cultures.

From Wikipedia

Ironically we may now start to see some improvement for ordinary Westerners as the global labour market stabilises

Since the economy in general is far from stabilizing the likelihood that work conditions improves for Westerners is even more improbable. You should consider for instance the EU a larger block (in regards to work force) but not very mobile (not like in India and close neighbors), there are deep language barriers that are not easily solved. All those little nations had to over the ages create many types of dissuasive steps as self preservation, but today the historical burden still remains. In any case the leveling of social rights from below is what is wrong, we are asking and forcing Westerners (as you put it) to rescind rights that were hard to obtain in place of forcing the rising nations to meet those rights, that more than anything is what is fraking it all up...

As for the energy, I agree energy production and control is the most important power, but it does not exist separated from economic power. The economy today is everything and I think for all the bad reasons...


Had to re-read your original post and my reply.

Originally posted by ErroneousDylan
I just can't imagine a civilization being so technologically advanced that still falls prey to such barbaric ways. It would make no sense. Conscious evolvement follows planetary advancement.

This sounds most logical. My best buddy claims to have been abducted by some benevolent energy type beings who gave him a breakdown of universe and it's evolution and he said that there is a police-type level of being who only allow benevolent beings to participate in interstellar travel and they are given strict rules of engagement. He seemed to believe that they equated evolved with being benevolent in every case otherwise they stay in quarantine. No way to say for sure but when thought through is makes sense.

do we have to be hostile we are not as your kind mortals we don't fight as much ether but your kind is always in danger you world has stated a war amigest us. some wish to destroy you others wish to safe you I would know because I have wonder your plant for 4,500 years the longest living to live in your plant. I have lost every thing before I came to your home my wife died my daughter missing. and I refuse to let your plant die for I AM SB GAURDING OF EARTH KING OF PLANT X. do not worry a creature that loses everting has nothing else to lose. but heave my wring mortals If you keep leaveing your plant eving to got to the moon you will draw the war to you. many have welcomed me others tried to kill me amerca your leaders lie to you.

originally posted by: DEMONSLAYER444

do we have to be hostile we are not as your kind mortals we don't fight as much ether but your kind is always in danger you world has stated a war amigest us. some wish to destroy you others wish to safe you I would know because I have wonder your plant for 4,500 years the longest living to live in your plant. I have lost every thing before I came to your home my wife died my daughter missing. and I refuse to let your plant die for I AM SB GAURDING OF EARTH KING OF PLANT X. do not worry a creature that loses everting has nothing else to lose. but heave my wring mortals If you keep leaveing your plant eving to got to the moon you will draw the war to you. many have welcomed me others tried to kill me amerca your leaders lie to you.

You would think after 4,500 you would have figured out Spellcheck.

realy I don't get out much I sopse thy would not know of
such things

your kind changes spelling and usage of words there is no need of such things but you forget the things that make your would specaile such as thy kind is the first to have no destiny no fates to live by no worries you take what you have for granted its a price to pay that is way im here destined to be xiled to the viod for fighting for you world but fate wished for earth to be safe. your kind could live in harmony but you choose to fight each other.

originally posted by: Drunkenparrot
You are using human motivations to build your viewpoint, what if E.T. is closer to this...?

That would be awesome.

a reply to: Diablos

Intelligence is actually considered a trait of the prey species. They need higher mental reasoning to stay alive.

a reply to: ErroneousDylan

Take away human traits such as money ,controll, and energy by observing mother nature and what do you see. The same things violence and survival of the fittest.

Our universe is pretty ruthless to those not atop of the apex.

I persoannly feel given our nature, why would aliens want to help us advance in technology let alone even contact us when were likely to wanna fight. We cant get along with ourselves why even try and get along with other species

I was expecting the OP to say aliens can't be hostile because well they're aliens, and hostility doesn't exist where they are from.

On the other hand do you think intelligent life can evolve to the top of the food chain without survival of the fittest? Maybe a planet or a moon where only one type of life evolves and it's intelligent? Without competition to survive a race might not be hostile.

Aliens are if sentient extremely varied individuals most likely. In the animal kingdom the more intelligent a creature the more it's capacity for demonstrating more individual personality traits. The more sentient a species the wider range of both good and negative personality traits demonstrated.

As such, I personally find it exceedingly unlikely aliens have gone from varied to uniform. In all likeliness they are exceedingly varied with both decent people and monsters within the same species.

I'm not saying this by comparing them to humans, I'm saying this by comparing them to both humans and other more intelligent species on this planet. The problem with the good loving species theory is it requires aliens to lose individuality and variety. Something I find exceedingly unlikely. In my opinion as aliens are supposedly super sentient the pattern should continue and they should thus be super varied.