Challenge Match: Antar vs 74Templar: We Already Came in Peace

The topic for this debate is "There is already an Extra Terrestrial presence on Earth.”

Antar will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
74Templar will be arguing the "Con" position.

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I would like to firstly thank everyone for joining in this debate whether reading, judging or sponsoring. 74Templar my hat goes off to you for inviting me to debate such a complex subject.

Without furtherance of time spent reading, let us begin:

To present the case for existing Extraterrestrial Presence on Earth one need only look to science for the answers and yet to stop there would only serve to create a white spot on a white wall in essence.

To use only science and repeatable evidence would discount the few but growing number of first hand and credible witness's available with their own piece of this daunting and ever expanding puzzle.

Perhaps a better way to have worded our title would have been "We have already come in Pieces"

For most people, the only way to deal with the reality of other worldly species is to make them either the enemy of the world or the saviors.

Humanity has had full control of this plant consciously for close to 14,500 years (longer if you count the Middle Paleolithic period in southern Africa of 200,000 years ago) and reaching towards an evolutionary perfection through technology ever since.

Or have they?

In this debate I will bring forward and to light evidence and logic from every possible avenue including personal accounts to prove to as many as will trust in the higher truth of this clearly recorded and historical phenomena.

Ok so let us now return to the main focus of this debate and ask the first Socratic question:

#1 Given what we know of Universes far older than our own, how probable would it be to not find life and for those lives to have not far exceeded our own technological maturity and traveled to this planet if not already here and responsible for keeping this planet alive?

First off, I would like to thank both The Vagabond, and of course my opponent Antar for the opportunity to be involved in what will hopefully be a revival of the debate forum, and the first of many open-minded and intelligent debates to come. I wish my opponent the best of luck.

“There is already an extra-terrestrial presence on Earth.”

I would like to open by admitting I strongly believe in the existence of life elsewhere in the universe, even within our own galaxy. Both science and mankind learns more every day about the ever expanding universe around him, and learns ever more our own place in the universe, which in itself is something very profound.

However, with that said, I must also admit that, at least in our corner of the galaxy, we are it. Other intelligent life is most likely no different than us. Staring up at the stars, attempting more and more technology designed to cross the immeasurable divide between suns, but at the end of the day staring skyward and wondering “what if?” Just the same way we do.

Given the fact we are, by nature a war-like species that has for centuries fought among ourselves, it could very well be said that other intelligent civilisations share that same tendency. Thus, we live with the threat of our own extinction in our every day lives. Which brings me to the first point. The biggest enemy of interstellar travel, and extra-terrestrial contact, is not distance, but time. We are but a speck on the intergalactic map, even in our own Earth’s history, we are but a few seconds in the entire evolution of our planet, even less as a modern technological society.

My main point will be the nature of advancement of technologies. War has always been the biggest catalyst of advancement of technology, and it has been implied that alien technology or involvement has been responsible for the major military developments, such as the Nazi UFO crash in 1936 and the subsequent Hanebu, and of course the now famous “weather balloon” in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. I do not believe the advancements of humanity have been due to the involvement of extra-terrestrials or even the “accidental” crashes we are led to believe by the government. I believe the governments and their scientific communities are a great deal further along than we the public are led to believe. In this debate I will be seeking to prove that the governments and militaries of the world are the ones responsible for the abduction and UFO phenomenon, and their subsequent cover-up as a tool for their nefarious activities.

#1 Given what we know of Universes far older than our own, how probable would it be to not find life and for those lives to have not far exceeded our own technological maturity and traveled to this planet if not already here and responsible for keeping this planet alive?

I have no doubt intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, and has done for millions of years. But given the enormous distances, and energy requirements needed just to visit the nearest stars, not to mention the inherent dangers of moving a biological species between stars, I don't believe the risk is worth the reward. Even if technology was available to reach our neighbours quickly, we could well be searching forever just to find a society that mirrors ours in both intelligence and evolution, that hasn't brought about it's own downfall.

Socratic Questions:

1) Do you believe the stone artwork of ancient societies and even the scriptures such as the Bible and the Vimanas are actually displaying direct evidence of ancient aliens? Or are they simply metaphorical or even spiritual texts and not meant to be taken literally?

2) The government has always had a hand in black projects throughout the years, as evidenced by the U2 and SR71 spyplanes during the Cold War. Do you believe the constant UFO sightings across the world are evidence of a more advanced species, or just our own governments field testing their latest weapons?

To prove the existence of extraterrestrial life on earth in this debate will be as easy as convincing the skeptical minds on the planet 1,500 years ago that the world is round and that there are infinite universes as well as multipal dimensions coexisting with us right now.

The skeptic will say, impossible, where is the physical evidence, show us the proof. And there are skeptics in every walk of life, every field of work and study. Thank G-d for the skeptic! Without them we would be trapped in an even greater quagmire of secrecy than we are now with blind followers and wild imaginations as well as blazon liars telling tall tales, confusing the issue.

Neither of these groups interestingly have a clue. Not a clue. You cannot make Extraterrestrials go away by declaring they are not here, that they do not exist, nor can you make them appear because you wish to believe, you need to believe.


I do not claim to understand why they are not openly here, or why only certain groups and individuals have the privilege to know without a doubt that they do indeed exist or that they are as enmeshed in our world as the very air we breath.

For me it is not a question of being able to sit on a fence with this issue, and still I do not understand far more than I do.

What has been made clear to me is that there are far more types than even I would dare to guess here at any given time. Are the species I have encountered here now? I do not know. But they have been here and will come again. Are they the same ones interacting with world leaders and black op's Military? That again is a mystery to me.

Most of you reading will have already read some of the threads I have started but to make my personal stance on how I know that they are here and in different alliances for and against humanity you should take a look at these two threads with curious mind and open heart.

What I have said is the truth and to know truth when you encounter it is one of your birth rites and fundamentally one of the simplest acts you can do. All this takes is to have your instinct and intuition override your mind while reading...


Possible Benevolent Scientist?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Possible Malevolent Maniac from another dimension?
www.abovetopsecret.com...




Answers to Socratic Questions:

1.) My personal opinion is that it is part of a map for future understanding. It was not meant to be taken literally in the period they were created but in due time, yes part of the plan for long range disclosure.

2.) Both, because in August 1987 I witnessed 3 very large black Triangular shaped craft with humanoid looking pilots flying over Mingus mountain towards Luke AFB in Phoenix AZ.

I have never have seen pictures or drawings that matched what I saw that night. Because of this sighting my interest has always been at the forefront of my searches online, in books and magazine articles.

What I have seen however is a progression in avionics since that time which in the beginning looked as if the Pilots were having difficulty flying with jerky and unnatural movements which soon became as fluid as any Extraterrestrial Pilot.

For many people these manned craft were imo mistaken as ET craft and not our own technology gained by whatever trade was made during the secret meetings in August 1987 at Luke AFB.

I have also seen on several occasions in Missouri, craft which I believe to be Non human of origin, and yet also was witness to an extraordinary triangular shaped hoovering craft which looked all systems go for manned space flight.

Although it was far beyond anything I have been able to find online from any country, I do believe it was earth based technology.

Disclosure must come from our own earth based technologies first, this will allow people to have some security and hope for anything disclosed later of non human origins. For continuity it has to be this way.

Socratic question #2:

If you were put in a position to come face to face with a species which was not human, what would your first reaction/ response be?

If you were put in a position to come face to face with a species which was not human, what would your first reaction/ response be?

My initial reaction, as it would be with any rational person, would be fear. We are inbuilt with the mechanism of flight or fight from our ancestors, wherein standing your ground or running away brought you the next meal or allowed you to fight another day if the odds were too high. As a result, fear breeds a mindset to protect one’s self, and with that a kill-or-be-killed attitude. It would be a likelihood an advanced species would not be able to communicate verbally due to language issues, or even through telepathy, which would create even more fear. You only have to look at the general reaction to any unknown force by our law enforcement or military to see it would be to shoot first, ask questions later.

We as a species tend to want to believe in the existence that we are not alone in the universe, even our own galaxy, for the simple reason that we are endlessly seeking the truth that we aren’t just some cosmic one-off, that there are others out there searching for us, and that the universe is abundant in, well, us. The main problem with this is our government knows full well the people’s yearning for the UFO and alien contact phenomenon to be true. I draw you to this picture from this ATS thread:
Anyone remember this photo?

Now to those who want to believe, this is a great shot of a UFO atop a building. And at a cursory glance, it is pretty convincing. But a closer look at the photo shows two things: Firstly, no one in the shot is looking skyward. Obviously if there was a great alien spaceship in the sky, the people in the shot would be at least looking in the same direction. Secondly, the UFO is badly out of alignment with the background. When you combine these two things our UFO becomes clear. It is a bird, a pigeon taking flight somewhere in the foreground, not a flying craft in the background.

I believe the governments of the world are behind the UFO and alien abduction phenomenon, as a cover for their own human abductions and subsequent experimentation of the human race, which of course is prohibited under all human rights treaties.

Human Rights

Secret US Government experiments

So how does the government get around the human rights acts? These are just a few of the secret experiments done on the human population over the last 70 years or so, and I believe there are many many more, that go unreported. The easiest way is to cover up their activities is by creating a falsehood of alien abduction and UFOs, have a few selected people tell their stories of abduction and aliens, and of course the culture is born. Soon, every unexplainable event is passed off as alien contact, while the government goes about it’s business of abducting people and experimenting on them. In a way, it’s the perfect coverup.

Socratic Questions:

1) Is the sudden surge in technological advances seen in the last 60 or so years the result of hidden alien intervention? Or just the natural progression of a species that has been at war since the turn of the century?

2) Considering what the Romans acheived in their reign of some 500 years, is it feasable that even back then alien involvement had helped the Romans acheive a technological edge both in their quality of life and war machine?

From Ancient Alien Theory to present day research, the links I could produce are nothing but a scattering of debunkable pieces of evidence which stand to hold little in the way of persuading anyone who has not made the decision for themselves as to whether or not different species exist with us on our planet for a variety of reasons and goals.

If I had not seen with my own eyes, sound mind and fearless curiosity, the pioneers of disclosure would have been enough to help me decide, probably because somewhere deep inside I am trustworthy and am not afraid to side with the less acceptable path.

I trust.

Astronauts, Scientists, Scholars, Top Military, Journalists, Pilots, Seamen, and millions of average people have come forward with personal experience. If even ONE was telling the truth and of sound mind, then we have our answer.

Having been witness to an extraordinary personal encounter of the fourth kind, I can tell you without hesitation Non Human Entities Are Here, and operating from behind the screen of our reality just as the stage crew works behind the curtain of the greatest Broadway play.

You know as well as I do that it takes far more than a single stagehand to make the show go on.

You also know that there are far more unexplained instances where common sense and logic fall short of answering the questions that could verify the existence of a hidden agenda then are reasons to say that nothing co-exists with us past, present and future.

It was my understanding that in the future the veil which keeps these other species hidden from human sight and reason will begin to diminish and with that more individuals will begin to encounter alternate realities from the ones that our Grandparents, Parents and people of the past have known.

Like clouds parting after a storm, the sun will eventually shine on the truth. Are you ready, willing and able to drop any preconceived ideas placed on you by the propaganda?


Answers to 74Templar's questions:

1.) Yes, however the surge has been engrained within plain sight for centuries, from the very system set upon humanity to enslave and capture them from the great pharoes and kings to the modern day politicians and priests. If you read my thread above about the
Possible Malevolent Maniac from another dimension, you will see that even an ordinary, average person can be given choices that promise power beyond even this world. If one person denies that malevolent endowment, it is most asuredly offered to another and in oder to sustain the gift, secrecy would have to be part of the arrangements.

2.) Extraterrestrial Aliances have been made since the dawn of technology. From Firestarting to the first tools man has had the chance to evolve with the aid of non human intervention. Yet what we know as freewill has also been coaxed to help open the critical centers in the brain and to allow a free exchange of choice into the mix. We as a human race are the experiement. Countless off world species are the scientists and gamblers.

Our very DNA holds the key to which direction each race of humanity is predeposed to evolve into. Some have a benevolent base and others malevolent, while most are neutral. It is the neutral which has to be persueded to one side or the other.

Socratic question #3:

With everything you have learned from Alien propaganda through main stream media, do you still believe what that faction tells you about each type of Alien species, forinstance the Greys, Reptillian, Angelic, beautiful humanoid, and the rest or do you think you will remain neutral until confronted with something perhaps completly unexpected to trust your own intuition?


.

With everything you have learned from Alien propaganda through main stream media, do you still believe what that faction tells you about each type of Alien species, forinstance the Greys, Reptillian, Angelic, beautiful humanoid, and the rest or do you think you will remain neutral until confronted with something perhaps completly unexpected to trust your own intuition?

While the main stream media is rarely a source for reliable and unbiased information, what I have studied of the supposed numerous beings that inhabit our planet is simply far too many races having been here for the truth not have gotten out. Given the factor of time and distance vs. the likelihood of so many close by planets having intelligent life, in addition to the fact that some, if not all would be simply here to plunder our resources or enslave us much in the same way we have done the same to less advanced races across our own history.

“Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.”
“A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.”
-Agent J & Agent K, Men In Black.

Although a quote from a movie, this shows just how much people want to believe in the existence we are not alone. Dumb, panicky dangerous animals. Our reasoning, even in the 21st century is limited to rationalising what we don’t understand with searching beyond our own borders for answers.

We like to think of ourselves as a fairly sophisticated species, capable of great and profound contemplation. Yet when we come across something we don’t yet understand, we tend to dip into the surreal. Loss of time, unidentified objects in the sky, strange beings that clearly aren’t us. Bear in mind in times past gods were blamed for natural phenomenon such as storms, earthquakes and tornadoes.

In our modern 21st century, we have all the answers for these once supernatural events. And yet in the same way we didn’t understand the nature of our world in the past, we may simply not understand the abduction and UFO phenomenon, as it may indeed just be a part of our natural world, something our brain just simply hasn’t discovered yet, or cannot comprehend at this point in time, and not the work of ETs.

In response to the numerous credible witnesses having sighted and experienced things they cannot explain, I draw you to this;



The now famous “surgeon’s photo” of 1934 that was the subsequent catalyst for the rise in the Lochness Monster phenomenon. What does this have to do with the alien contact? Although still a matter of contention, it stood the test of time until only recently, when it finally came to light that the surgeon’s photo was indeed an elaborate hoax.

Other skeptics in the 1980s argued the photo was that of an Otter or a diving bird, but after Christian Spurling's confession most agree it was what Spurling claimed – a toy submarine with a sculpted head attached. Details of how the photo was accomplished were published in the 1999 book, Nessie – the Surgeon's Photograph Exposed, that contains a facsimile of the 1975 article in The Sunday Telegraph. Essentially, it was a toy submarine bought from F.W. Woolworths with a head and neck made of plastic wood, built by Christian Spurling, the son-in-law of Marmaduke Wetherell, a big game hunter who had been publicly ridiculed in the Daily Mail, the newspaper that employed him. Spurling claimed that to get revenge, Marmaduke Wetherell committed the hoax, with the help of Chris Spurling (a sculpture specialist), his son Ian Marmaduke, who bought the material for the fake, and Maurice Chambers (an insurance agent), who asked surgeon Robert Kenneth Wilson to offer the pictures to the Daily Mail.

Source.

Socratic Question:

If something like this photo could stand the test of 70 years of scrutinisation and then be finally revealed as a hoax due to modern technology and study, then could it also stand that the stories of alien contact and UFOs also be people simply being incorrect about their assumptions or not even being able to fathom the truth because we simply haven't advanced enough as a species?

Cognito ergo sum:


Perhaps Descartes sums up best the entire question of a True Alien Presence on Earth including the non existence of it's physical acknowledgment if for no other reasoning and logic than the very skepticism it breathes life into.

In his Discourse on the Method, he attempts to arrive at a fundamental set of principles that one can know as true without any doubt. To achieve this, he employs a method called hyperbolical/metaphysical doubt, also sometimes referred to as methodological skepticism: he rejects any ideas that can be doubted, and then reestablishes them in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge.[20]

Initially, Descartes arrives at only a single principle: thought exists. Thought cannot be separated from me, therefore, I exist (Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy). Most famously, this is known as cogito ergo sum (English: "I think, therefore I am"). Therefore, Descartes concluded, if he doubted, then something or someone must be doing the doubting, therefore the very fact that he doubted proved his existence. "The simple meaning of the phrase is that if one is skeptical of existence, that is in and of itself proof that he does exist."[21]

I want you to consider again:

" methodological skepticism: he rejects any ideas that can be doubted, and then reestablishes them in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge."

We have already established this point of exploration and inquiry!

Furthermore we also have thousands of first hand accounts to confirm and validate the very question.

For the purpose of establishing the presence of extraterrestrial life on earth one only needs to look at the continued and ever expanding supply of new energy from both the pioneers of this the greatest metaphysical subject to the finest arguments by the respected skeptics to know without a doubt, that it is truly worthy of deep and inspirational clarity without the hyperbole and fear mongering that generally predisposes the opportunity for serious discussion and the insistence for genuine understanding by those who are in a power play of secrecy.

This childish game only makes humanity on the whole look unready, immature and not cultivated enough to even handle the truth if and when the time is right, and from certain schools of thought we have passed over the chance for the big reveal many times since the 1940's. In a similar coup like the big bail outs, we will just have to wait as they scrabble for the last shreds of technologies and control before disclosure more than likely happens with or without the vested interests readiness.

en.wikipedia.org...

By the very skepticism it implores throughout history in such an undying fashion it establishes itself. Remember this as nothing will shock or surprise you when if in your lifetime you discover for yourself what people throughout history have already discovered.

en.wikipedia.org...

74Templars Socratic Questions Answered:

We have evolved enough, we have been held back from our greatest potential at every turn. This is something which is as natural a part of our world as the very air we breath.

I can not speak for the whole Nessie ordeal, personally I would not doubt that what we are beginning to see float up from the depths of the contaminated Oceans worldwide creatures never before seen and even living prehistoric that will make Nessie become a shadow in time if she does not in fact exist which I think she does picture or no picture.

The hoaxers will always be here, they only stand to complicate this segmented mystery. Just move on and never give up or the hoaxers win. Validation will come.

Socratic question #4

How is it using logic when skeptics deny even the very Astronauts who stood to lose everything by coming forward with personal evidence and personal experiences which went into almost Spiritual levels from their reports?

The Astronauts/Cosmonauts are our intelligence, for many astronauts they stepped away from being part of a program hidden by secrets and lies to stand as humanities representatives and on the side of the questioning people who courageously demanded truth.

To be a skeptic is almost scientific in nature, and requires the most brilliant of minds. Anyone can be negative and closed minded, but to wear the true badge of inquiry one needs to remain open without judgement, a witness and observer.

Why do you suppose the scales of balance are so offset these days with seemingly many more skeptics of negative and unmoving mindset than ever before even though many more witness's are coming forward to push some truth from the Gov.s?

Socratic Question #5:

Do you know of a single skeptic who has proven the non existence of Extraterrestrial Life on Earth?

(Incomplete post removed after confirming that poster has copied text to be completed and posted)

The above was accidentally posted incomplete. 74Templar will complete his post and post it separately, then the post above will be removed.

How is it using logic when skeptics deny even the very Astronauts who stood to lose everything by coming forward with personal evidence and personal experiences which went into almost Spiritual levels from their reports? Why do you suppose the scales of balance are so offset these days with seemingly many more skeptics of negative and unmoving mindset than ever before even though many more witness's are coming forward to push some truth from the Gov.s?

To answer that question we must look at that period in time first. In the 1960s humanity stood upon the brink of many changes, in much the same way we do today. The same went with our technologies. By the 1960s we had taken almost 50 years of technological wartime research and began applying it in the realm of scientific discovery. Looking back at the space race between the US and USSR, we can see much of the technology applied in the rockets and systems developed during WWII being fully realised. To say the astronauts knew everything that was going on back then, and had a full brief on our supposed alien guides as we took our first steps outside Earth, is akin to saying every member that worked on the Manhattan Project to develop the nuclear bomb knew full well what was going on. I’m not suggesting the astronauts that have come forward to discuss their own experiences are lying or simply playing along with the hoax. It’s quite possible there were other agendas at the time, and military applications going on outside their knowledge. Being in space for the first time, being out in that brand new frontier, it is quite possible they were simply mistaken with what they saw.
While there are those who needlessly debunk every single photo, video and account of alien contact as a man-made hoax, the skeptical mind looks at the facts given, and makes a decision based on that. True, belief takes a front seat in pioneering new and bold ideas, but it must be tempered with fact and reason, or else it runs the real risk of being completely derailed, both by the believer and the skeptic.

Do you know of a single skeptic who has proven the non existence of Extraterrestrial Life on Earth?

No I have not. However, stating that a skeptic has not proven the existence of extra-terrestrial involvement is in the same sense you could say there has been no evidence of a believer or a contactee having irrefutable proof that an alien presence here on Earth is fact. It is still a matter of contention on both sides.

Consider for a moment the truth behind our evolution, and the supposed great cover up by our government, that ET has been here, is in contact with us, and is guiding our evolution from behind the curtain of secrecy.
But consider this. What if the whole plan has been about control? What if our governments had this planned all along? It is no secret that the greatness of the human condition has been long held back by the world’s powers, that we have been divided on all fronts by pretty much every difference we as a species have. While we bicker and argue among ourselves, the world powers keep us from acheiving our true potential and seeing the ultimate truth.
Fear is an instinctive reaction to the unknown as I perviously stated, and the governments of the world full well know this in order to create control. All they have to do is create fear. An event big enough to reshape the way humanity thinks, an image burned into our mind for the remainder of our lives, and most likely something passed down the line for generations to come.

This event has changed the course of history and sparked new wars. We have had new laws introduced such as the Patriot Act that allows the government to pretty much violate any human rights laws they see fit, and circumvent the course of justice the people have fought so hard to maintain over the years. Now consider this.

Could this simply be the next form of control? Could all the hype surrounding full disclosure and the revelation of aliens just be another way to set us all up for the final stripping of our last few liberties and freedoms? The Patriot Act showed the US government is willing to override the basis of democracy in order to detain "terrorists" who speak out against the status quo. Regardless of the truth behind 9/11 and other major events that have re-written the rules, history says the governments of the world will do whatever is neccessary to keep themselves in power, and keep the will of the people in check.

Final socratic question:

Hypothetically, full disclosure of aliens on Earth is revealed. Our governments stand with alien beings, and tell us we are not alone. What would be the immediate impacts of this? Would society rebel and become a chaos state? Or would we embrace our higher selves and band together in the spirit of knowledge?

In closing I have to first acknowledge just a few of the top contributors to my adventure in discovery. These are the people and groups who could have helped me to find an unbiased and non prejudice personal understanding of the ET phenomena had I not been part of the group that has discovered for myself through personal experience.

I am not blessed with ignorance but endowed with knowledge.


N=R FP NE FL FI FC L C

As explained by mathematical formulation based in numbers by the late great Carl Sagan, at

least 1 million of the 100 billion stars in our Milky way galaxy have the capability to not

only sustain life but are capable of much more including and not limited to interstellar

space travel.


Michio Kaku, one of my favorite voices for life on this and every other liveable planet in

our solar system and quite the outspoken front man for the education of humanity since the

advent of computers and social networks like YouTube, and his bold moves into the main

stream media, has quite possibly been a catalyst in a conscious shift towards the Type One

Civilization he has introduced to the average person seeking a higher understanding of reality.


John E. Mack M.D. has had a transformational effect on so many people and always remaining

true to his original goals, has helped individuals not only deal with their own personal

struggles and challenges but also lead the way towards a sincere credibility in the field of Ufology.

His life's work, his worship in action, gives me an incredible feeling of bliss, promise and hope for humanity, his high spiritual trust is immeasurable.

Astronaut Edgar Mitchell makes me so proud of his courage against all adversity of the

Military and the secrets he has made public in an attempt to encourage others to step up to

the plate and hold responsible those in a position to let the people of this planet know

without fear that we are not alone in this Universe.


Bill, Mark and Simon, for sponsoring one of the most eclectic arrangements of in depth and

informative places to openly and respectfully discuss every angle of this huge and

expanding subject matter.


Radio, T.V. Internet hosts that continue to invite guests to talk about Alien life and UFO

realities that at one time would have been laughed off the airwaves.


The continued support of inquisitive seekers of truth who keep the search alive.

And to all of you, the individuals who have come forward to share your unique piece of the puzzle through personal experiences shared , and to the researchers who find profound treasures everyday and bring them out for discussion and examination. It is to these people that I pay my greatest honor, they are the back bone of the entire quest for the truth and even in the worst of downgrading and debunking, name calling, they continue to stand true to their stance and deliver everything they have to help people know that it is not always the credible witness that has the best offering.

Now some of you may think that I have dropped the ball and lost the opportunity to bring forth links, pictures and every shred of possible outside evidence to prove that an ET presence does indeed exist and that they have, are, and continue to be here on Earth.

I trust that everyone reading this will have watched all of the documentaries on TV, looked at the evidence available from every source from Astronauts to Military, Presidents and CIA, FBI, Pilots, Police and experts in every field of study.

There is no real reason in this short debate to recap for you the overwhelming body of evidence easily found which has been flooding humanity for decades, so instead in closing I ask that you simply use that information without prejudice or worship, and base your choice of belief or denial not from fear, duty or longing but from the evidence available.

Answer to Final Socratic Question:

*It would have to depend on who gives the disclosure. Would I trust the very same groups and Governments that have kept this secret all along? No. It would cause me to question their motives. Would I trust any Alien Species that sided with our world leaders? No. It again would only cause me an uneasy and distrustful anxiety.

Fear and worship are different sides of the same coin. And there is no way to control what individuals will do when the full disclosure is made unless it continues to be done incrementally through many more years into the future when humanity has taken responsibility for themselves and their planet.

The first step towards peaceful disclosure will be to disclose our own advanced technologies created to safeguard our precious resources and planet as a whole. Once this happens you know we are close to disclosure and not before.

Thank you

For my closing statement, I would first like to once again thank my opponent antar, for the opportunity to debate this very speculative and enlightening topic. It has been most educational.

The greatest questions as a concious race humanity can ask itself are; who are we, and of course why are we here.
Are we some galactic fluke? A one off? Or are we the end result of an eon of intelligent design and experimentation by superior beings, who share our passion and curiosity to learn ever more about the ever expanding world and universe beyond our ability to comprehend? Regardless of the ultimate truth behind these and the other many ponderings we consider as a race, it will always be a matter of contention between skeptics and believers until the day full disclosure or the truth either way is finally revealed to us.

The last and final option, is that we have been conditioned, even duped into believing we are not alone. Why? Because of hope. Because without a higher being to believe in, much of humanity simply gets lost. The old word for hope was faith, and for many centuries the word of the Gods played a huge hand in the way we acted, the way we thought, and indeed the way we perceived our place in both the world and the universe.

In the greatest age of humanity however, our scientific mind began to accelerate past our religious mind, and we began to demand and discover hard facts that threw out the old system, or least began to discount it. Our world powers, seeing no longer could they trust in outright patriotism and unwavering faith to their government wills and religious institutions to keep us in check, began to look for new ideas to keep us in thrall. Does it not seem odd the first sightings of UFOs came at a time when we began to suspect the governments were not disclosing the full truth? That today, with religion severely on the decline in the western world, we have a new and profound way to consider our existence, our beginning, and of course our evolution?

You see, you have been deceived my friends. We all have. Whether it be aliens in the skies, God in heaven or our world leaders doing what is supposedly right for us, we have all been lied to. Each day another truth comes to light we have been deceived, and have been for a very long time.

Why?

To keep the status quo. To keep those in power, in power. If it were revealed tomorrow that aliens have been here from the start, have been the ones manipulating us and guiding our evolution, the society we know would eventually collapse. In short the status quo will have been lost.

The advent of ET is just another tool of control, just like the rules of morality and the ideas of faith before it. If we didn’t have to answer to them, there would be little to stop us rising up and taking the government down, very quickly. The UFOs in the skies, the greys and reptiles we see are constructs of a government trying desperately to keep control over a population that is boiling just beneath the surface. A population that ever more demands the truth from an even more obviously corrupt system. Their technology is far more advanced than we are led to believe, and they use this veil of secrecy and advancement to further their control, while throwing out misinformation and hoaxers designed to keep us looking one way while they do as they as they please while we’re distracted.

Is there intelligent alien life out there in the universe? Absolutely. It would be arrogant of humanity to even suggest we are alone in such a vast universe, even moreso to consider the possibility of 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone, only one solar system could have sparked such an intelligence. A being that can create, evolve, think, contemplate, and yes, even explore the universe around him. But as for that life having the fortitude and longevity to visit us in a time when we are beginning to reach our intellectual greatness? As you add up the factors; distance, time, the fragile nature of biological life against the savage nature of the universe, and of course the potential for our own armageddon, the chances sadly become slimmer and slimmer, dwindling to near impossibility.

Personally, I hope to see the day we confirm the fact we are not alone, that ET will appear in our skies and show us the next step in our own evolution. That we will grow past this need to war over every facet of division, and embrace the fact we are the human race, not the human races. But while we use our greatest and most powerful minds to do nothing more than invent new and terrible ways to destroy each other, the potential for benevolent extra-terrestrial contact remains well outside the realm of possibility.

Thankyou.

As a skeptic, this was not an easy debate to judge, since my skeptical position, that there is really no phenomenon to evaluate the source of, wasn't either person's point of view.

Both presented a good case, though almost diametrically opposed methods. 74Templar showed good evidence of the unlikelihood that one extraterrestrial race, never mind a half dozen, would commit the resources to visit the Earth and perform seemingly random acts. In addition, his claims that today's technology follows a reasonable pattern of emergence, and that war is often the motivator for innovation, are excellent points.

Antar counters with a largely testimonial position, beginning with her own experience. I have no doubt that she experienced something at Oak Creek, as described in the linked post, though I draw no conclusions as to what it was. She notes that there are thousands of others who have similar testimony, and if even one of those people actually experienced an alien abduction, the argument is over.

So I think that it comes down to essentially the same claim -- that there is a conspiracy to cover up the existence of this technology. In Antar's instance, extraterrestrials are behind it, while in 74Templar's case, it is the government's action. To that end, we would need to look at each group's motivation and ability to carry out such a coverup.

This, I think is where 74Templar's case begins to unravel a bit. If we have a government that is nefarious enough to want to abduct human beings and subject them to experimentations (something I don't put beyond them,) surely there are less elaborate methods than creating advanced aircraft and impersonating aliens. In an age of wikileaks and whistleblowers, it seems that there would be far too many people involved in this sort of project not to have someone tattle, particularly if one purpose of it is something so outrageously immoral.

On the other hand, Antar's aliens would simply need to be motivated by self preservation, and, as a spacefaring race, would almost certainly have the technology to keep themselves hidden, and isolate themselves from loose lipped humans, apart from those that they choose to interact with. That seems a far more likely scenario of the two, to me.

For that reason, though my position would be closer to 74Templar's, I believe that Antar has won this debate.

What to believe. Ultimately, are we being deceived by others or by ourselves?

We place blinders on ourselves at every given oppourtunity. In relationships, in politics, in life. The true-isms though, can't be ignored.

There is life out there somewhere.

Antar, you spoke well, using a different yet effective tact to argue your point.

74Templar, your practical approach was well done. You spoke as an educated opponent instead of a denying skeptic.

Ultimately though, someone has to win.

Antar, what took me over the top was a more philisophical approach from you.

You both did an outstanding job, but I'd have to give the win to Antar.

beez

I have no problem posting my opinion, even though the winner has been decided by majority. Antar is the winner of this debate.

74Templar made the mistake of going off on a tangent with the Loch Ness reference, which had nothing to do with the debate, and once again by trying to invoke imagery relating an ET existence to the cruelty and senselessness humanity invokes in relation to the 9/11 tragedy. However, aside of the brief topical drifts, he presented sound evidence and was very eloquent in his position. His position was firm and resolute throughout the debate. For that I would've nominated him the winner.

Antar relied heavily on personal experience, and utilized the massive amount of documented evidence in her favor. She stayed concretely on the topic of the debate, never wavering her resolve, however, being a believer in ETs does not provide proof. Antar also proved herself to be a seasoned debater, which worked out to 74Templar's disadvantage, and has proven to us she did deserve to win by staying strictly on the topic of the debate and providing an overwhelmingly convincing argument.

Now that the third judge has posted, everyone feel free to add their comments.....Open thread.

I'd like to commend 74Templar, once again, for his point that one should consider the economic realities of interstellar flight. I frequently admonish people for using quantum mechanics as a means of performing "magic", and I think that I (and many) are guilty of the same thing when considering extraterrestrial visitations. Barring magic, there would be costs associated with zipping around the galaxy (time, if nothing else,) so it seems odd to think that aliens would come here, en masse, with no real benefit, because it's costing them something.

You both made me really think about things, so thank you for that!

reply to post by 74Templar


74Templar, I am shocked that you did not win this one. I truly felt that you engaged in the debate far closer to the known parameters of a winner than I did. Clearly this was a difficult one to decide and one that really could have gone either way imho.

As we both said in U2u, neither of us had any true ideas as to who would win and in some ways I honestly hoped that it would have been you, not that my points were not from my own base of truth and personal perception/experience, but because I know that one debate will not change anything or bring us any closer as a humanity to knowing the truth, and that to me is because of your points in the debate.

I know it is not time for the whole to find out the truth about earths occupation, so I am used to being the underdog in this debate topic.

Thank you and I look forward to a debate in the future if you would accept.

Julie

adjensen and beezzer, Druid, hope I spelled those right,,,

Thank you for giving this one to me and for the kind and truthful words to my opponent who did an excellent job.