A word on Enlightenment

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I never sought it, it just happened.

Awesome. Is it happening now?

When else is there?

Well, there was the time WHEN you wrote your first message in this thread and the time WHEN you wrote the second message etc. etc. Were all those the same time? Or are we suggesting time is an illusion and we aren't actually in time?

reply to post by rwfresh


"You cannot verify the actual existence of anything. Ultimately every bit of knowledge is belief built on an initial acceptance of something as fact for the sake of sanity"

sanity is truth,,, our sense were built in tandem with the stability of reality,, which is govern by laws and consists of mysterious "energy",.,.,,.,. verify in what way....... i am verifying that we exist,,,, we are real,,,,,compared to what? i dont know,,,,,, compared to literal nothing,,,,, literal nothing is the only thing thats never real,,,,,,,, anything else that exists in any way really exists in that way....


"A rock may exist. But it "exists" as an illusion. What is a rock? It's a rock. "

reality exists,,,,, in this reality you exist,,,,, in this reality a rock exists,,,,,,, they are composed of different things,,, many complex different things and can be described in many different ways,,,,,, without us describing the many different ways,,, does not change the fact that these 2 things exist,, exactly as they are,, composed of exactly what they care composed of,,, capable of exactly what they are capable of,,, caused to exist by exactly what they were caused to exist by,,,,, there are very weird characteristics of this reality,,,, i will give you that,,,,, you can call it an illusion,,, or mud,,, or fdjsakfksfsd,,,,, but that doesnt change the fact that it is there,,, and composed of "stuff" and it has a history,,,, it works in a specific manner,,, it is capable of specific things,,,, within it you and a rock both exist,,,,, and if that rock were to fall on your head,,,,, you would feel the consequences of that action,,,,,,


the point is,,,,,,, you dont tell reality what it is,,,,,, it tells you what it is,,,,,, it is what it is,,,,,, and it not only tells you what you are,,,,,, without it you would never have been because this reality created you

reply to post by rwfresh


I am not getting into the time debate but i will offer you this.
youtu.be...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


why do those video talks consist of any words? wouldnt it be more accurate if the video was 4 seconds long and the speaker only said "Nope,,, nothing"

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by rwfresh

 

"You cannot verify the actual existence of anything. Ultimately every bit of knowledge is belief built on an initial acceptance of something as fact for the sake of sanity"

sanity is truth,,, our sense were built in tandem with the stability of reality,, which is govern by laws and consists of mysterious "energy",.,.,,.,. verify in what way....... i am verifying that we exist,,,, we are real,,,,,compared to what? i dont know,,,,,, compared to literal nothing,,,,, literal nothing is the only thing thats never real,,,,,,,, anything else that exists in any way really exists in that way....

OK, but i have to acknowledge all that as belief. Because that's what it is. Don't get me wrong. I am right here beside you in the same "reality". I just don't care to call it reality because the word means something else for me i guess. The more i investigate this "reality" within and without, the more i am forced to acknowledge a lack of substance. What is the smallest particle? What is my deepest thought? Where is the edge of space?

"A rock may exist. But it "exists" as an illusion. What is a rock? It's a rock. "

reality exists,,,,, in this reality you exist,,,,, in this reality a rock exists,,,,,,, they are composed of different things,,, many complex different things and can be described in many different ways,,,,,, without us describing the many different ways,,, does not change the fact that these 2 things exist,, exactly as they are,, composed of exactly what they care composed of,,, capable of exactly what they are capable of,,, caused to exist by exactly what they were caused to exist by,,,,, there are very weird characteristics of this reality,,,, i will give you that,,,,, you can call it an illusion,,, or mud,,, or fdjsakfksfsd,,,,, but that doesnt change the fact that it is there,,, and composed of "stuff" and it has a history,,,, it works in a specific manner,,, it is capable of specific things,,,, within it you and a rock both exist,,,,, and if that rock were to fall on your head,,,,, you would feel the consequences of that action,,,,,,

I can't completely give myself to things without substance. Maybe it's a disorder. I don't know. I'm not worried about it though hahah.
If i look out at things and say that is how things are and there is a history so that is how they will be forever.. It's kind of disturbing for me not to acknowledge SOMETHING is in fact actual. But if everything i see, think, smell and touch is without substance i want to be able to honestly say - that is not it. Feels good. So a rock is a rock. I see and touch something physical and interpret what it is. My interpretation is not Real. But i don't have a direct experience with a rock if i am honest about it. I have an interpretation. My interpretation is temporal and not actual. So the rock may be actual.. but that would be a belief.

the point is,,,,,,, you dont tell reality what it is,,,,,, it tells you what it is,,,,,, it is what it is,,,,,, and it not only tells you what you are,,,,,, without it you wouldnt never have been because this reality created you

edit on 21-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

I will agree with you that Reality is the ONLY thing with substance. I am under no delusion that i control Reality, communicate it, recognize it, create it etc. On the contrary. Also, creation implies time. Again, the Reality i am speaking of is without Time. So if Reality did create something separate from, or within itself, with characteristics that are not of itself.. then that is not the Reality i am talking about.

But "reality" sure.. it is apparent. Doesn't require a ton of discernment or contemplation. Just look out and within and say it is what is it. Right there with you.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Yes absolutely.
Sit with a flower.
Ultimately words or no words it's all the same.
Words are appearances like flowers.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I am not getting into the time debate but i will offer you this.
youtu.be...

If actual absolute Truth was ever expressed in Time you would not need to be present to experience it. If an experience of Truth is triggered by hearing someone you know it's delusional

And with that.. Even i get tired of spiritual/philosophical jerk of sessions and the shame meter is starting to rise so PEACE!

reply to post by rwfresh




"Again, the Reality i am speaking of is without Time. So if Reality did create something separate from, or within itself, with characteristics that are not of itself.. then that is not the Reality i am talking about. "

this is what i meant before when i asked your definition of real......... What is the reality you are speaking of? what does it consist of? where is it? explain it please..... how did you come to know about it,,,, did you use your senses which created your thoughts to think about this reality you are speaking about? does this reality you speak of exist "in reality" in itself?

"But "reality" sure.. it is apparent. Doesn't require a ton of discernment or contemplation. Just look out and within and say it is what is it. Right there with you. "

but it does need a TON of discernment and contemplation...... it doesnt,,,,,, if you are a baby or turtle,,, not at all,,,,, waddle around,,, eat when hungry,,, sleep when tired...... but as a human being,,,, knowing what is possible to be known and done as a human being,,, knowing how intricate and complex and massive this reality is,,,, it does need a ton of discernment,.,..,.,,.,. try not to take modern civilization for granted........ you, me and itsnowagain are wandering in the woods 100,000 years ago,,,,,, do we use our discernment of reality to create fire? or catch fish and animals in more efficient ways? how about noticing wood floats on water and making a raft? or a rock can sharpen wood to make a spear? how about collecting the seed of fruit and vegetables and planting them all in one controllable area? how about creating a language to label all these discernible details of reality?

reply to post by rwfresh


Truth is expressing itself always (eternally presently), it is laughable that people are looking for it somewhere or somewhen else.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

What have you tasted as enlightenment sir out of curiosity?

Pretty much everything that "ItsNowAgain" is discussing in this thread, is my reality. There's only Now. Now is Infinite, Oneness, Beingness, Awareness, Transcendence. I have experienced myself to have pre-existed and remember existence prior to being in this body/mind format. Complete Love & compassion for others. Everything is vivid like peripheral living.

I have seen that Ultimately there is no me. That I am One with the source of all things. A rain drop merged w/ the Ocean. This state comes and goes. For the sake of giving back and helping others, I've spent the last few years studying how this all works, comes about operates within me and others, so to ultimately have something published. However, if I dont publish anything, cool too.

Did you shed all of your ignorance? Or did you merely learn something you didn't know before?

shedding of ignorance is an ongoing evolution, and will probably go on for the rest of my bodily existence. However my personality and character has made a complete 360 and have many witnesses to support it.

Its also a learning a process that will also continue. There are channels throughout the body opening up now, vivid lucid dreams, foresight, exits out of the body sometimes on command, access to and seeing other realms, transcendence, etc.

Did you rid yourself of suffering?

Suffering is a label of the mind. I am completely beyond enjoyment or suffering of things. Its all an arising, a play of existence. FOr example my younger brother died a few years ago, and instead of going crazy, crying, etc, there was just the seeing of the mind's reactions, however being perfctly fine and within acceptance of the play.

Suffering comes and goes, but who I am and the source of all things, completely transcends good and bad. Its like the ultimate neutrality and its always Now. Yet it has Love and Compassion for all things.

Or did you feel pretty good for a while? Did you go to heaven? Or did you think about it for a bit?

Good feelings come and go. Sometimes with this there is ecstasy. Sometimes just stillness and peace. I remain the Observer of these states that come and go, and sometimes even I as Observer melt away into all that is and am nowhere to be found.

I've seen things/realms that point to a heaven, or various heavens. I have very little time spent outside the body, but the times I have been out, I've seen vast realms and beings in all directions and stuff is all around us.

Also I still think about all this from the Mind mechanism. The Mind can't really wrap its self and its limits around some of these things which transcend all logic and reason.

I have met many folks who say they have tasted such things as well. It wasn't long before I found out they were merely fooling themselves.

I think alot of people glimpse the Absolute State. Then they go back to their normal mode of operations. It happened to me too. I have glimpsed and seen and tasted all sorts of stuff, but my faults and vices remained. However those glimpses are filled with SO MUCH AWE & REVERENCE, that I was basically like, forget everything else in the mundane life, im going after the Gold of whatever this is. I want to know and see God, as the Absolute not only Trumps everything, is the source of everything, but also makes the mundane everyday life, incredibly and unbelievably beautiful and Alive.

So yeah, it doesnt mean someone is perfect. The vices and faults and all other b.s. is an ongoing process of refining.

Still everything that I have experienced, is all discussed in Christian Mysticism, Socrates, Advaita, Buddhism, Hindu Philosophy, Monasticism, and I know personally folks who have tasted this and continue to be deep sea divers of this Absoluteness.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Blarneystoner
KNOWLEDGE.... is not enlightenment.

KNOWING is like a disease
If you think you KNOW
Then you are truly sick....

i think i know that tree will fall over when cut near its base....... I think i know if i dont eat i will die,,.,,.,. I think i know i think there fore i am.....

I think i know i can,,,, i think i can i think i can,,,,,,i can.

edit on 20-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Are you certain that the tree actually exists? or is it just an interference pattern in the latticework of Space-Time.

Will you really die? or simply leave behind your physical shell and transition to a new existance?

How can anyone become enlightened through knowledge when no man's knowledge goes beyond his experience?

reply to post by rwfresh

I will agree with you that Reality is the ONLY thing with substance. I am under no delusion that i control Reality, communicate it, recognize it, create it etc.

Then how do you claim It is the only thing with substance, or exists at all? I've enjoyed your posts so far, made a lot of sense, but this question continuously arises. If you are "reality" then how do you know, or claim, there is Reality? Is it just a 'all that could be left after reduction' kind of thing? The Buddha spoke of similar things and this question always arose when reading it. How do you know there is the unspeakable, unknowable, unrecognizable, if you cannot recognize or experience it?

Peace

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I will agree with you that Reality is the ONLY thing with substance. I am under no delusion that i control Reality, communicate it, recognize it, create it etc.

Then how do you claim It is the only thing with substance, or exists at all? I've enjoyed your posts so far, made a lot of sense, but this question continuously arises. If you are "reality" then how do you know, or claim, there is Reality? Is it just a 'all that could be left after reduction' kind of thing? The Buddha spoke of similar things and this question always arose when reading it. How do you know there is the unspeakable, unknowable, unrecognizable, if you cannot recognize or experience it?

Peace

The Greeks asked the same question when seeking virtue... how will I know when I find it if I don't know what I'm looking for?

Anamnesis....

reply to post by Theophorus


Here is my word on enlightenment, well actually four words.


"Live in the now"

Peace out,

RT

Originally posted by Realtruth
reply to post by Theophorus

 

Here is my word on enlightenment, well actually four words.


"Live in the now"

Peace out,

RT

What you experience as "now" actually occured in the past.....

reply to post by dominicus


Then you are no more closer to enlightenment than anyone else.

By all means, live in the now, but that isn't enlightenment, that is self-evident. It's the only place you can live. Realizing this doesn't make one enlightened. Of course we live in the now, do we really feel the need to tell people something so obvious?

Everything else you discussed isn't enlightenment, or even close to it for that matter. That is personal growth and self-betterment. That is philosophy. That's something hopefully everyone goes through. To equate it to enlightenment probably isn't the best thing to do, or people, like myself, will confuse you with someone who is actually enlightened.

Like you said, ignorance comes and goes, suffering comes and goes, no one is immune to it, no one is enlightened.

I've seen things/realms that point to a heaven, or various heavens. I have very little time spent outside the body, but the times I have been out, I've seen vast realms and beings in all directions and stuff is all around us.

I assure you, you were still in your body, dreaming about something.

"Are you certain that the tree actually exists? or is it just an interference pattern in the latticework of Space-Time."

, I am certain the tree exists,,, either as an interference pattern in the latticework of space-time,, or as many particles, making atoms, making elements, making organic chemicals,, with Dna and what not,,,, or those things may be faked and we are in the mind of an eternally dreaming god,,,,, which ever one of those,,,,, the dream would be real for us,,,,, the tree exists,,,,, by the definition of the word exist and what it entails,,, which i believe has something to do with being,,, or is...... yes the tree is....... if it wasnt,,, it wouldnt

"Will you really die? or simply leave behind your physical shell and transition to a new existance?"

im not sure,,,, its pretty much one or the other,,,, it either lack of perception or a different brand of perception,,,, from our perspective it pretty much has to be one of those 2..... but i would not say its 50 - 50 chance.... id say its 100% one of them.....

"How can anyone become enlightened through knowledge when no man's knowledge goes beyond his experience?"



Im not sure,,, enlightened is just a word with a meaning,,, if you give me your definition of it maybe i can answer your question better...... for example.... "it was an enlightening experience to discover how good orange juice tastes" .... you dont mean the word in that sense,,,, so besides semantics what are we arguing over and trying to say?

How does a man know that his knowledge is true?

to me the idea of enlightenment is a few things,,,,, one is the immediate appreciation of existing,,, without this fact nothing else would come for you,,,,, you were born on this earth,,, give a chuckle about that,,,, you really exist on this world with all the other people in this time,,,,, lol,,,, what the heck are you,,,, what is everything,,,,, now we see the world in the wonderment of a child,,,,, enlightening..... we were all children,,, what happened,,, the act of holding on for dear life made our existence into a brutal game,,,,,, so now we are all just big babies,,,, to me if youve ever seen 2001 a space odyssey its what , maybe the whole movie is about but especially the last scenes.... every individual starts out an ignorant baby,,,,,, man evolutionarily had his humble beginnings you can say mans baby was the monkey.... and then we learn and grow and build our space ships,,,,, and still,.,.., compared to the age of the universe and all time and potential beyond that,,,,,, the oldest smartest man who ever lived,,, might as well be a new born mosquito......and at the end of 2001 space odyssey,,, the smart modern astronaut man,,, in old age,,, is returned to the mysterious source of this universe,,, and becomes a new child... i wrote earlier in this thread,,, to me enlightenment is the realization there is no enlightenment...... there is no end,,, no plateau,,,,, ok im finished,,, im enlightened,.,,,,. where does it end,,,,, and funny as well,,,, a lot of forms of enlightenment and meditation stuff is about clearing your mind,, and becoming empty,, like that of a baby or child,,,, pure awareness,,,

reply to post by ImaFungi




"What is enlightenment?"

Good question... Maybe when one finds the answer... one achieves enlightenment.

Maybe seeking the answer is our true purpose...

Maybe knowing that the question has no answer is...

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by dominicus

 

Then you are no more closer to enlightenment than anyone else.

By all means, live in the now, but that isn't enlightenment, that is self-evident. It's the only place you can live. Realizing this doesn't make one enlightened. Of course we live in the now, do we really feel the need to tell people something so obvious?

Everything else you discussed isn't enlightenment, or even close to it for that matter. That is personal growth and self-betterment. That is philosophy. That's something hopefully everyone goes through. To equate it to enlightenment probably isn't the best thing to do, or people, like myself, will confuse you with someone who is actually enlightened.

Like you said, ignorance comes and goes, suffering comes and goes, no one is immune to it, no one is enlightened.

I've seen things/realms that point to a heaven, or various heavens. I have very little time spent outside the body, but the times I have been out, I've seen vast realms and beings in all directions and stuff is all around us.

I assure you, you were still in your body, dreaming about something.

edit on 21-6-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)

I think we should just set aside this word, enlightenment, it does none of us any good. You already said no one has achieved enlightenment, ever, so it doesn't exist. Well, if you aren't enlightened, since no one is, then how can you tell someone else they aren't enlightened? After all, you don't know what that is, or do you? Because if you say you do know what it is, then you are saying it is not only possible, but you have experienced it. So this is why I think this whole debate is useless. Believers affirm this word as a means of boosting their egoic sense of self, and skeptics negate this word for the same reasons. One says, "I know it is real", the other says, "I know it is not real", both are equally deluded.

Peace

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Then you are no more closer to enlightenment than anyone else.

yes and no.

No, I am not closer to it than anyone else, because 'I' is illusion, and that Absolute State is already inherent in all things.

Yes, I am closer to it than some others, because most people you ask have not experienced the merging of the drop of rain with the ocean. I remember my state prior to these experiences, and now know my state after these experiences. There has been a profound shift and is not possible to go back to the way life/reality once was for me before experiencing these things.

Its a paradox, but by no means is your statement above true, at least on a relative scale.

By all means, live in the now, but that isn't enlightenment, that is self-evident. It's the only place you can live. Realizing this doesn't make one enlightened. Of course we live in the now, do we really feel the need to tell people something so obvious?

While in my previous sleep walking state I would have agreed that the Now is self evident, in those days, I was not united to the Now and was looking through a glass darkly, w/ filters of time, duality, past/present.

These days there has occured some kind of mystical Union w/ the Now which has made it much more immediate and vivid than before. When asking the majority of others whether or not they experience the Now the way I do, the reply is "No". So there is definitely some sort of change and permanent shift that remains. Itsnowagain seems to be experiencing it the way I do as well

Everything else you discussed isn't enlightenment, or even close to it for that matter.

Well then if you know what Enlightenment is, please do tell us what it is. For One, I have about a thousand books that I can forward you that all say it does have to do with a shift into the Absolute state. On the other, if you have a thousand books that say that this isn't so, please do share.

I am also saying that I have not just these books to support my case, but also have seen myself through direct experience that most of it is true, and there are others here, like ATS member "ITSNOWAGAIN" who also will solidify the case, from direct experience, not from theories or conceptualization.

That is personal growth and self-betterment. That is philosophy. That's something hopefully everyone goes through. To equate it to enlightenment probably isn't the best thing to do, or people, like myself, will confuse you with someone who is actually enlightened.

Wrong!!! Prior to the shifts and awakenings, there was some sort of path towards personal growth & self betterment. However after the shift, it was seen that the one who was striving towards personal growth and self-betterment is an illusion, just a concept, a thought.

So now instead of personal growth & self-betterment, there is just constant dropping of the Illusions, dropping all personal growth, dropping all self-betterment, dropping the self. In this process, all illusion is constantly let go of, and in its place the Absolute reigns supreme, and in a sense merges w/ you and operates through you. You become no You. Self-lessness, true love, true compassion, true beingness.

This is apples and sausages when comparing the two.

Like you said, ignorance comes and goes, suffering comes and goes, no one is immune to it, no one is enlightened.

You misunderstood me. There is No one here, there is no I. So when usually suffering would come, there would be a reaction of the mind that this is "suffering" that it sucks that 'I' need to do something about this.

But in the wake of awakening, suffering may come but there is no one to label it is such. Being that ultimately I is an illusion and is not real, who is there to claim or label suffering as suffering?

This is another clear distinction that there is a HUGE apples and suasages of a difference between the state prior to awakening, and the state after awakening.

I assure you, you were still in your body, dreaming about something.

Really? You can assure me of my own experience and direct knowing of certain things? Please do tell.

I remember existing prior to the body. When I leave the body, its exactly the same as when I remember myself prior to being in the body. Thankfully there are branches of science now studying what will soon become a scientific fact that consciousness is or can be non-local and does not depend on a physical body to exist. Give it a few more years.