A word on Enlightenment

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Truth is: no one has ever achieved enlightenment. And striving for an unattainable goal in the face of evidence that is directly contradictory to their doctrines is un-philosophical. Philosophy isn't trying to astral project, reach enlightenment, go to heaven, become spiritual, move things with the mind, walk through walls etc. That is religion and idealism, the anti-thesis of wisdom.

Disagree completely. Ive seen enlightenment as simple, inherently present within all people. People put enlightenment on this huge sky high pedestal which is impossible to reach, but is actually accessible.

The "face of evidence" you refer to, is basically the metalanguage created by the world's cultural social structures all built upon conceptualized theories of what reality is. This has kept the reality of enlightenment at bay as a probable myth, when it is a reality.

Astral projection, heavens, enlightenment all can be explained philosophically. Ive seen and have directly experienced things that would shock most skeptics, and have met a handful of folks who have also tasted of things as i

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by rwfresh

I see people here giving you a hard time. But have considered the posts you are active in are not really math and science related? You have come to a post on enlightenment to share scientific finite ideas. I'm sure you have more productive conversations in math and science related forums. Personally I'm glad you inject your scorn for philosophy and spirituality.. that scorn is a real as any other idea or expression.. Not very!

edit on 21-6-2012 by rwfresh because: quotes yo

Wait a second. Philosophy is the root of Math and Science. Without philosophy, they wouldn't exist.

Don't mistaken the fact that because he doesn't fall into the typical romantic idealism, or that he isn't arrogant enough to completely disregard reality in favour of some ideal, as being non-philosophical. On the contrary, he is being more philosophical than most of the people in this forum.

People who preach and are seduced by the idea of enlightenment, the idea that someone can become free of ignorance and suffering, are no more philosophical than the priests of the middle ages promising rewards in the afterlife.

Truth is: no one has ever achieved enlightenment. And striving for an unattainable goal in the face of evidence that is directly contradictory to their doctrines is un-philosophical. Philosophy isn't trying to astral project, reach enlightenment, go to heaven, become spiritual, move things with the mind, walk through walls etc. That is religion and idealism, the anti-thesis of wisdom.

I couldn't agree with you more in terms of Math being an applied philosophy and also straight up philosophy in some contexts. But that doesn't mean that Noreaster believes that. he likely will speak for himself.

Religion is a by-product of philosophical thought. It's ignorant to think that modern man has come up with any deeper philosophical ideas than have already been expressed through the numerous master "contemplaters" throughout history. But people like to confuse nomenclature with wisdom and knowledge. Nomenclatures evolve.. they come and go. But the underlying nature they communicate has not changed.

Heaven, enlightenment, Truth and Reality are all philosophical ideas thought about long long long long ago... extensively.

And acknowledging we are no closer to any of it is testament to the failure of modern thought and the modern religion of pop-science.

reply to post by rwfresh


The enlightened state is prior to thought so you will never achieve it with thoughts or ideas.
Non conceptual awareness is considered to be the enlightened state, it is light because you are not bogged down with delusional thoughts about everything. The confusion and fear drop away when you lose interest in your thoughts and 'others' thoughts. Life is now and you are present for it as it occurs.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I am conscious of what appears to be other, there appears to be duality whereas when in deep sleep there is no duality, no anything. The appearance cannot appear without the seeing of it, they cannot be separated, it is one.

To me this backs up what I said though, even awareness is impermanent. To call the state of absolute emptiness or nothingness "pure awareness" is incorrect in my view because as you said there is no awareness in that state. I would say awareness is the root of all experience and "pure awareness" is an expanded awareness, where it is not fixed or attached to anything in particular, it is just simply aware. Like the movie screen analogy. Images flashing before a screen, but the screen does not change with or chase after the images. Yet, the screen is not permanent, it too will fall apart and cease to exist one day. This is why the teaching of non-attachment is so important. As rwfresh said, it is all illusory, even the notion of it being an illusion.

What do you think?

reply to post by Itisnowagain




i believe the term and idea of enlightened.,,.,.,.,.,.. is in reference to ,,,,, the universe being made of mainly light/energy........ and our sense of vision relies on light to see any external object......

so to become enlightened,,,, is to see reality as light would see it,,,, in its true form

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Awareness (knowing presence) in my opinion is permanent. How can a painting be painted without a canvas? The aware presence has to be before things can appear. When the alarm goes off in the morning how would you hear it if you were not aware in deep sleep? You are not aware of yourself as a person in deep sleep, you are not aware of anything, you are just pure awareness of nothing.
The video will clarify.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

The enlightened state is prior to thought so you will never achieve it with thoughts or ideas.
Non conceptual awareness is considered to be the enlightened state, it is light because you are not bogged down with delusional thoughts about everything. The confusion and fear drop away when you lose interest in your thoughts and 'others' thoughts. Life is now and you are present for it as it occurs.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Enlightenment is not Reality or Truth. Reality and Truth exist actually and are eternal... without time.

So far, based on the fact that we are exchanging messages over through the medium of time.. I'd say you are communicating and expressing incomplete Truth. And if we imagine that you are expressing Truth, how would a delusional self hear it? Can delusion interpret what is Real and what is not? No only Truth can. If you're delusional self sits down to meditate you know you have failed. The very act suggests that your REAL and TRUE self requires your ego to meditate. Truth requires nothing. it is complete and whole. Without lack.

If any part of you is seeking an enlightened state you are doing it wrong.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Truth is: no one has ever achieved enlightenment. And striving for an unattainable goal in the face of evidence that is directly contradictory to their doctrines is un-philosophical. Philosophy isn't trying to astral project, reach enlightenment, go to heaven, become spiritual, move things with the mind, walk through walls etc. That is religion and idealism, the anti-thesis of wisdom.

Disagree completely. Ive seen enlightenment as simple, inherently present within all people. People put enlightenment on this huge sky high pedestal which is impossible to reach, but is actually accessible.

The "face of evidence" you refer to, is basically the metalanguage created by the world's cultural social structures all built upon conceptualized theories of what reality is. This has kept the reality of enlightenment at bay as a probable myth, when it is a reality.

Astral projection, heavens, enlightenment all can be explained philosophically. Ive seen and have directly experienced things that would shock most skeptics, and have met a handful of folks who have also tasted of things as i

What have you tasted as enlightenment sir out of curiosity?

Did you shed all of your ignorance? Or did you merely learn something you didn't know before? Did you rid yourself of suffering? Or did you feel pretty good for a while? Did you go to heaven? Or did you think about it for a bit?

I have met many folks who say they have tasted such things as well. It wasn't long before I found out they were merely fooling themselves.

reply to post by rwfresh


what is your definition of real?

reply to post by rwfresh


I never sought it, it just happened.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

Awareness in my opinion is permanent. How can a painting be painted without a canvas? The aware presence has to be before things can appear. When the alarm goes off in the morning how would you hear it if you were not aware in deep sleep? You are not aware of yourself as a person in deep sleep, you are not aware of anything, you are just pure awareness of nothing.
The video will clarify.

Hmmm... that is a good point. Do you think awareness remains after the brain ceases to exist? Or is it dependent on a brain? Even if you were to claim the former is true, then this is beyond thought, so why pollute/limit it with thought? Should it not just remain the nameless/unknowable then?

Just bouncing ideas around...

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


maybe you were not aware before you began to exist,,, and you will not be aware when you cease to exist...... but there are good chances you will have the opportunity to become aware again,,,, and most likely cease,,,,, the time between these lives will be eons, and at the same time immediate

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by rwfresh

 

what is your definition of real?

The dictionary definition works fine for me:

re·al 1 (rl, rl)
adj.
1.
a. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness.
b. True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal

re·al·i·ty (r-l-t)
n. pl. re·al·i·ties
1. The quality or state of being actual or true.

true (tr)
adj. tru·er, tru·est
1.
a. Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous.
1. In accord with reality, fact, or truthfulness.

The confusion comes into play with verifying. Why? Because what is NOT real cannot communicate or express what is Real. I can tell you all about what is not Real. it's easy to do and it cannot be refuted. Why? Because everything we see, experience, express is illusion. Everything we are is not Real. Religion, philosophy, science.. all fail at communicating and identifying actual Truth.

We are not in control of the illusion. Just like the characters in a cartoon are not in control of the plot. We are illusion. We can't not try and discover the Truth. But we can never communicate it. Never. So long as the illusion of time continues Truth will never be communicated. And an existence without time can also be understood as Reality. So in a sense waiting for time to stop is also a complete illusion. It has never started in Reality.

Truth and Reality are the same thing. And the only thing that is Real is Truth. The english definitions express the paradox and apparent dependencies of the words themselves.

reply to post by rwfresh


I agree with you on your critique of religion.

But we cannot disregard the ideas of so-called materialists and realists because they don't agree with our lofty ideals. Because they cannot blindly accept the fact that enlightenment is attainable, we shouldn't berate them or seclude them to somewhere other than where philosophy is discussed. On the contrary, people who show you the utter illusion and self-deception in those dreams of higher places and ulterior planes of existence, is need more today than ever as we yearn for whatever it is that is beyond life. We should be avoiding this form of nihilism.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I never sought it, it just happened.

Awesome. Is it happening now?

reply to post by rwfresh


"Because everything we see, experience, express is illusion. Everything we are is not Real"

this does not mesh with

Real - Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects

Reality- The quality or state of being actual or true.

We only know these words,,, and the idea of objects,,, and existence,, and tangibility,,, because we exist in a "reality",,,, an actual grouping of real objects, with verifiable existence,, I exist,,, a rock exists,,, in reality,,, everything that is something is something and made of something which does something,,,, this is true,,,, we made the words up after the fact.....

whats more real then the only things we can observe that are real?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I agree with you on your critique of religion.

But we cannot disregard the ideas of so-called materialists and realists because they don't agree with our lofty ideals. Because they cannot blindly accept the fact that enlightenment is attainable, we shouldn't berate them or seclude them to somewhere other than where philosophy is discussed. On the contrary, people who show you the utter illusion and self-deception in those dreams of higher places and ulterior planes of existence, is need more today than ever as we yearn for whatever it is that is beyond life. We should be avoiding this form of nihilism.

Be excellent to each other. Agreed! Nihilism is the nihilists punishment.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

Awareness in my opinion is permanent. How can a painting be painted without a canvas? The aware presence has to be before things can appear. When the alarm goes off in the morning how would you hear it if you were not aware in deep sleep? You are not aware of yourself as a person in deep sleep, you are not aware of anything, you are just pure awareness of nothing.
The video will clarify.

Hmmm... that is a good point. Do you think awareness remains after the brain ceases to exist? Or is it dependent on a brain? Even if you were to claim the former is true, then this is beyond thought, so why pollute/limit it with thought? Should it not just remain the nameless/unknowable then?

Just bouncing ideas around...

The brain does not exist, it is part of the dream. The dream does not exist it just appears to, only the dreamer is real.
Watch the video.

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I never sought it, it just happened.

Awesome. Is it happening now?

When a realization happens, like, you thought it was a snake but now you see it is a rope, it is over. It is like getting a joke.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by rwfresh

 

"Because everything we see, experience, express is illusion. Everything we are is not Real"

this does not mesh with

Real - Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects

Reality- The quality or state of being actual or true.

We only know these words,,, and the idea of objects,,, and existence,, and tangibility,,, because we exist in a "reality",,,, an actual grouping of real objects, with verifiable existence,, I exist,,, a rock exists,,, in reality,,, everything that is something is something and made of something which does something,,,, this is true,,,, we made the words up after the fact.....

You cannot verify the actual existence of anything. Ultimately every bit of knowledge is belief built on an initial acceptance of something as fact for the sake of sanity. Faith in the most common sense of the word. Sense experience is not what i consider a good tool for discerning what is real. Illusion communicating illusion. Everything we create to enhance our ability to perceive Reality is manifest from our own clouded delusions. We will never build a microscope/telescope/nomenclature that will reveal Truth. It is not possible. If we could imagine such a thing it wouldn't be required.

A rock may exist. But it "exists" as an illusion. What is a rock? It's a rock. Ok done, next. What is space? Space. Ok done. Next. What is Time. Time. Ok done. next. What is Truth. Truth. Ok done. next. All of these are forever investigated because we have yet to verify the actuality of any of them. None of them are actual. Truth and Reality are actual and we haven't discovered/communicated/expressed them yet