China will Decimate the US Naval Fleet

Originally posted by DreamerOracle
reply to post by biggilo

 

Quarters within the German Regime have indeed spoke of the "WHAT IF" Scenario.. It's been in the news keep up

P.s The What If Scenario if you need it spelling out... Greece goes rogue/ Spains QE fails/ Portugal and Italy then follow... bye, bye Euro. It is a possibility and not a fairy tale.

edit on 13-6-2012 by DreamerOracle because: (no reason given)

KEEP UP?? With what?
Obviously the 'WHAT IF' has been discussed, thats got nothing to do with what I am talking about and Germany has not discussed leaving the EURO at all. Yes, they discussed Greece leaving and maybe even Italy or Spain, NOT GERMANY.

Some IDIOT said Germany was talking about reinstating the Mark, the LAST THING Germany would ever do is this.

Maybe you do not understand what you are watching on the news when they are talking about this, if Germany reinstated the Mark they would be crippled economically.

So, unless Angela has decided Germany is going to commit economic suicide I am fully up to date with this.

Originally posted by biggilo

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Examine the battle of 73 Easting to see what I mean about that.

A tank battle against Iraqis has no relevance at all.

You do know what would happen to US/NATO/Western ground forces if they landed in China? See Battle of Imjin River and multiply it by about 1 thousand.

edit on 14-6-2012 by biggilo because: (no reason given)

The section of the UN line where the battle of the Imjin River took place was defended primarily by British forces of 29th Infantry Brigade. 29th Infantry Brigade consisted of three British and one Belgian infantry battalion (Belgian United Nations Command supported by tanks and artillery. Despite facing a numerically superior enemy, 29th Infantry Brigade held its positions for 3 days. When the units of 29th Infantry Brigade were ultimately forced to fall back, their actions in the Battle of the Imjin River together with those of other UN forces, for example in the Battle of Kapyong, had blunted the impetus of the Chinese offensive and allowed UN forces to retreat to prepared defensive positions north of Seoul where the Chinese were halted.

According to a memorandum presented to the British cabinet on 26 June 1951, 29th Brigade suffered 1,091 casualties, including 34 officers and 808 other ranks missing.[50] These casualties represented 20 to 25 per cent of the brigade’s strength on the eve of battle.[51] Of the 1,091 soldiers killed, wounded or missing, 620 were from the Gloucestershire Regiment, which could muster 217 men on 27 April.[52] 522 soldiers of the Gloucestershire Regiment became prisoners of war.[53] Of those taken prisoner, 180 were wounded and a further 34 died while in captivity.[54] 59 soldiers of the Gloucestershire Regiment were killed in action.[55] Based on estimates, Chinese casualties in the Battle of the Imjin River can be put at around 10,000.[56] As a result of the casualties suffered during the battle, the Chinese 63rd Army, which had begun the offensive with three divisions and approximately 27,000 men, had lost over a third of its strength and was pulled out of the front line.[-wiki

One thing is for sure, the Chinese are good at stopping bullets.

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot

Originally posted by Matt1951
reply to post by Binder

 

You should consider fact checking your opinions...

China has a more active space program than the US

.
China's official space budget is 1/10th that of NASA.

What the U.S. military spends separately through AFSPC, SPAWAR and various DARPA programs is classified but the amount is often inferred to be considerably more than the acknowledged civilian budget.

China is going to the moon.

Good news for anyone with an interest in human space exploration however NASA's hugely successful Apollo went to the moon 40 years ago.

I wish the China National Space Administration good luck.

China will now have its J20 super fighter deployed in 2018, well before the US ever fields the inferior JSF.

That is just silly.

The J20 is currently a prototype technology demonstrator, not a super fighter

Chinese industry is still struggling to build reliable copies of Russian engine designs (who are years away from operational deployment of the Sukhoi PAK FA themselves), operational deployment of anything resembling an indigenous 5th generation aircraft by the PLAAF in 2018 is a pipedream.

The F-22, which is the super fighter benchmark, reached its Initial Operational Capability 7 years ago.

F-35 inferior to the J20? How did you reach that conclusion? Both the J20 and F-35 performance capabilities are classified however there are currently over 60 flightworthy production F-35's versus 2 J20 prototypes using engines designed for an SU-27.

Shouldn't you at least wait until China actually manages to build a complete J20 prototype (with the correct engines) and fly it before declaring it superior to an established program?

edit on 13-6-2012 by Drunkenparrot because: (no reason given)

Where do I start with such nonsense -

Lets look at the J20. By the way, they have two flying now. Yes, they might end up using Russian engines.
en.wikipedia.org...
J20 can supercruise, JSF cannot.

There have been many discussions on JSF both at Aviation Week (on line blog is Ares), and dodbuzz.com. The failings of JSF are too well known. Are you saying China has not flown the J-20? Where do you get such delusional ideas?
Those are 60 mistake JSF jets. They are not combat ready. They would have to be substantially reworked at great expense in the future, or they will be scrap in the Nevada desert. Has JSF ever been able to fly supersonic yet? I was working as a design engineer on parts of JSF in 1991. 21 years later, how close to combat deployment are we? Does the word Vaporware come to mind?

This article says J-20 is two years ahead of schedule.
www.wired.com...

"Last year, former Defense Secretary Robert Gates was greeted in Beijing by China’s experimental stealth jet buzzing over his head. Gates didn’t sweat it: He proclaimed that the J-20 wouldn’t be ready until at least 2020. Oops.

The Pentagon’s top China official has now revised that estimate. The J-20, China’s first stealth jet, will be operationally ready “no sooner than 2018,” David Helvey, deputy secretary of defense for East Asia and Asia Pacific Security Affairs, told reporters Friday.

The new anticipated timetable for the J-20 hardly augurs the end of American military dominance. But it wasn’t the only Chinese military development that took the Pentagon by surprise last year.

According to the Pentagon’s new report (.pdf) on the Chinese military, China’s got three nuclear-powered submarines — an advance that Helvey conceded the U.S. military didn’t anticipate. China also fielded an “improved” amphibious assault vessel last year, while the U.S. Marine Corps is having trouble upgrading its own.

And that’s just the stuff that the Pentagon can see. Helvey speculated that the Chinese military keeps its research, foreign military acquisitions and nuclear modernization off its books. The report estimates that China’s declared $106 billion annual military budget is really more like $120 to $180 billion.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by Matt1951

 

Intellect is no replacement for creativity or independent thought.China has cobbled together an F22/35 Frankenstine that isn't aerodynamically as capable of operating anywhere near a generation 6 aircraft.They couldn't figure out the thrust vectoring.Not only that we are moving into the era of drones, no pilots to black out from hypermaneuvreability.That is why video games were created.
During the cold war the stats on all the Russian equipment were considerably elevated to justify funds.When you actually see one of those vehicles,you see they are absolute mass produced garbage.The world found that out ,as did Russia when we absolutely stomped the exports into the dirt when EVERYONE thought we would be hurt in Gulf War 1.You should have read it,all the "soft Americans and how the 4th largest army in the world would kill most of us,it was hilarious,Just like I read on this board currently.Examine the battle of 73 Easting to see what I mean about that.
We don't even know what sort of nightmares there are in DARPA accept what they tell us about. Look at the FEL and imagine worse,yes we do have more dangerous weapons than nuclear,probably resting smack dap in the middle of "you do NOT want to know" territory.
Not to mention in hand to hand size does matter,we eat a lot of beef that is a hell of an edge.

Iraq had castoff Russian equipment at the time of the Gulf War. Beating up Iraq in the Gulf War was no great military feat. Realize, April Glaspie, the US ambassador to Iraq prior the war, gave Saddam the green light to invade. Realize, April Glaspie is under a permanent gag order to never discuss the issue.
I believe the US Army and Navy are very capable. The Air Force, in a state of decline due to the JSF catastrophe.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by Matt1951
China is rising. The US Air Force is being put out of business, they are buying no new fighters and have not for many years. The JSF does not work and cannot be fixed. The US will have to depend on the US Navy and Marines for air power. Since China and the US each have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world many times, they will not fight each other. Conventional weapons are mainly useful for attempting to create colonies, such as the failed attempt in Iraq. Note, the primary ally who was willing to fight and die with US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan was the UK. A sad loss, stupid oligarchs and war criminals rule both countries.

Matt...Once the FEL system is installed...there will be no need for fighters or large numbers of Troops or WAR in General....I have been talking about the FEL for some time now but I can see many of you just don't get how BIG this is or how GREAT of a CHANGE this will cause for WARFARE in general.

The Free Electron Laser System which is right NOW partially installed....is a combination of Networked Super Computers....a World Wide Satellite System equipped with special reflection Systems as a Mirror will not work as a Nuclear Powered Free Electron Laser Beam would vaporize a standard Laser Mirror....FEL's will be installed on every U.S. Carrier as well as Aegis Cruisers and there are already two land version now operational. This form of Laser is not effected by atmospheric conditions....the bean can be split as many times as needed as well as expanded for large ground targets. It works at the speed of light so due to both it's speed, accuracy and power...it is powerful enough to VAPORIZE ANY AND ALL ICBM OR SLBM OR CRUISE OR GRAVITY DROPPED Nuclear Weapons to the point the Warhead will no longer EXIST! It is Self-Defending and it's Satellite System cannot be taken out as it works faster than any incoming Missile or for that matter...Particle Beam.

THIS SYSTEM MAY MAKE WAR OBSOLETE! It is that BIG OF A DEAL! Target and acquisition testing of a Non-Nuclear Powered Version showed that it's networked Super Computing ability....and this will only get better...can split the beam to vaporize multiple targets even as small as a 50 Cal Round. It has the ability to vaporize a hole through 1000 feet of SOLID STEEL in a few seconds.

Now ask yourself...who or what would want to take on such power? NO ONE! Split Infinity

I will have to look into this, I was not aware of it.

reply to post by SolaFide


The Chinese kept coming until guns were too hot to fire and it came down to bayonets. UN Forces retreated in this battle, the Glosters only held so as to allow the rest to perform a tactical retreat.

This is how the Chinese fight, they send tens/hundreds of thousands of soldiers at once until you are overwhelmed.
Professional Western Armies WILL kill large numbers of them but WILL themselves ultimately be overwhelmed.

You can bet that if this is how they think about their soldiers that they will apply the same logic to their missile batteries. ALL defenses can be overwhelmed with sheer numbers. It stands to reason that if a carrier group came into range of Chinese missiles that it could be destroyed by them. It also seems obvious that all real enemies of the US Navy, i.e Russia and China, will have some sort of plan for how to attack and destroy carriers.

reply to post by biggilo


But in the same respect, if you and I are aware of the tactics, wouldn't you think the US would be prepared for that kind of assault and have a counter-measure prepared?

Ok go ahead and try.We're already arranging a whole new chess board in the pacific.China is now being countered.They'ed better hit us quick before we reach binocular range.The Vietnamese are letting us reopen Cam Rahn bay.
We will now relive our cold war through China.But I doubt they'll be as strong as Russia was.They are a great big industrial copy machine.Maybe they'll fix the "Red Dawn" movie now. wonder how many orders are being placed for Mandarin lessons now?

You asked for it you got it.

I hate to say it, but how much longer will tolerence of US interference into other people's business last abroad? More importantly, with all that is owed by the US to China as it pertains to economical debt, how would a war between the two be profitable at all? I would assume that if the US and China do in fact go to war, and the US wins, the debt would not only be wiped clean but would reperations be in order? If China was to win, how could they profit from a country that already owes them trillions?

Can someone enlighten me on how a victory or a defeat for China would do them any good? Does that mean, besides casualties of war, the US has nothing to lose and everything to gain from a conflict with China?

Originally posted by DevilJonah
I hate to say it, but how much longer will tolerence of US interference into other people's business last abroad?

A number of reasons why this question is pretty ridiculous and therefor hard to answer:

1) Every country interferes with other country's business. Every country. All of them. The USA is not special in this regard.

2) What do you mean by "tolerance"? Most of the USA's business abroad is mutually beneficial. We're an economic power house and many countries want to be a part of that. Of course, you'll mostly hear about the times where we're not invited, because that's more exciting. "USA Arming Libyan Rebels" is far more exciting than "USA Signs Textile Export Development Pact With Philippines".

3) The USA, like every country, has been interfering with other people's business abroad ever since it was founded over 200 years ago. We've already fought wars over it. It's not like this is some new development.

So, the question is sort of like asking, "How much longer are people going to tolerate the wind blowing?" In which case most people would say "Uh, I dunno...as long as they have been already?"

More importantly, with all that is owed by the US to China as it pertains to economical debt, how would a war between the two be profitable at all? I would assume that if the US and China do in fact go to war, and the US wins, the debt would not only be wiped clean but would reperations be in order? If China was to win, how could they profit from a country that already owes them trillions?

Trillions? May want to check your facts there, good sir. China owns 8% of US debt, which is roughly $1.2 trillion, not trillions. If the USA and China went to war (which is incredibly unlikely, I'm surprised it gets so much attention here), they would both lose no matter who won. It would be an economic calamity for both sides (though, admittedly, one either could recover from after some time).

Can someone enlighten me on how a victory or a defeat for China would do them any good? Does that mean, besides casualties of war, the US has nothing to lose and everything to gain from a conflict with China?

If the USA went to war with China, it could very quickly lead to the devaluation of the US dollar, which would be catastrophic for the global economy. Perhaps you're picking up on a theme here: war between the USA and China would be economically disastrous for both countries and the entire world at large. No doubt we're going to see some heads butting and some regional power struggles here and there, but the USA and China are far more interested in having a strong economy. It's far easier and more beneficial to be the "Baddest dude on the block" these days with money than it is with weapons.

Then why is the US repsositioning forces focused on the Pacific?

reply to post by Speakeasy1981


The US needs a war with China if it wants to remain the worlds Superpower. The US economy feeds on oil (Which in reality, backs the dollar) and China has an absolute hoard of it in the South China Sea. Also, The US can turn to others form their textile and industrial products but it will cost them more. On the other hand, China can sell to other nations but it will cost them heavily unless they successfully create a counterweight to the Dollar with Russia and Iran.

China is overpopulated. It needs room to grow food and house it's ever growing populace. The easiest target would be Australia. With little over 22 million people it is ideal for Chinese 'lebensraum'.
The US however needs Australia and NZ to counter the growing Chinese power. Give it time, both empires will be drawn into conflict and it will have catastrophic consequences for the world.

If either power crashes it will create a power vacuum which smaller, harder to control nations will only be too happy to fill.

Can anyone say 'Great War'?

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Ok go ahead and try.We're already arranging a whole new chess board in the pacific.China is now being countered.They'ed better hit us quick before we reach binocular range.The Vietnamese are letting us reopen Cam Rahn bay.
We will now relive our cold war through China.But I doubt they'll be as strong as Russia was.They are a great big industrial copy machine.Maybe they'll fix the "Red Dawn" movie now. wonder how many orders are being placed for Mandarin lessons now?

You asked for it you got it.

Your government my be so proud of you! Lol

This isn't really anything to get worked up over, the US is refocusing it's geopolitical strategy to the pacific instead of the middle east and China is feeling the pressure so they are bouncing back by trying to say that the loses for the fleet will be to much for the US.

If they can destroy a ship its not as easy as just firing a bunch of missiles, they have to locate it, fool the US satellites or shoot them down, get around the f-18s and the ships missiles and get their missiles through. its not an easy task, but its just geopolitical arm flexing, nothing more.

What is worrying is that China can detonate a conventional EMP burst, that would bad if the fleet were hit by that.

Originally posted by biggilo
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Who told you the quietist subs in the world are in the US Navy? Or is this another one of your made up comments.
You know the Royal Navy and Russia claim the same? You realise trying to argue this point just makes you look stupid?

It is already clear that you ACTUALLY BELIEVE in some sort of technology gap existing between America and other first world countries lol!! Are you 16yo or something?

The 'FEL' that you so foolishly think is some sort of ultimate weapon is not in service yet, Russia, China and even your allies have 'ultimate weapons' in development too, its what is in service TODAY that counts. Who'd of thought, outside of America we have technology too, not just sticks and stones.

But, just top humour you a bit, your ultimate weapon is going to be fitted to out of date warships? i.e the Aegis? and you think this makes you invincible? Grow up!
This is China and Russia we are talking about, not Iraq or Libya.

If you want to see how China fights read up on the Battle of the Imjin River during the Korean war.

It is clear to me that you know very little about what is going on....and even less about the motivations for actions.

You bring up The Battle of the Imjin River, also known as the Battles of Kumgul-san, P'ap'yong-san and Solma-ri or the Battle of Xuemali in which the Chinese were unable to achieve a breakthrough and were stopped by U.N. Forces at THE NO NAME LINE just North of Seoul. I had TWO UNCLES who were COMBAT VETS who made it out of Korea alive.
The Chinese tactics were to Human Wave Attack U.S. and U.N. Military positions and we killed at least a Million or more of them. We would keep killing them and they would keep coming until they had trouble climbing over piles of their own DEAD. Once our Machine Guns or Morter or Cannons were too hot to shoot as they would over heat from the shear number to times they were fired...the Chinese would advance. THIS TACTIC WOULD NOT WORK TODAY!
The Korean War as considered a POLICE ACTION and seldom were U.S. Troops ever let completely loose. Do yourself a favor and try not to mix it up about History of Wars with a person who has Family members that either went through it or DIED in it!
As far as SUBS...the U.S. Subs are the quietest in the world and Subs such as the VANGUARD CLASS of the U.K. were designed by ELECTRIC BOAT...the American Sub Builder that Built the OHIO CLASS. The VANGUARD was also designed with the help of LOCKHEED as the Vanguard Class is basically a Smaller Version of the OHIO CLASS as both carry Lockheed's TRIDENT II D-5 Nuclear Missiles. The OHIO class carries 24 TRIDENT II D-5 MISSILES that have the capability to each carry 12 MIRVED Nuclear Warheads. The Vanguard Class carries 16 TRIDENT II D-5 MISSILES that have the same capability as far as number of total MIRVED NUCLEAR WARHEADS it can carry per missile which again is 12...but the U.K. usually only has 3 MIRVS per Trident Missile. And if you think that the U.S. does not have WATER JET TECHNOLOGY....or if you don't even know what that is or how it is applied...it also shows me how little you are aware of.
The FEL is VERY REAL and is talked about openly now as Maintenance Schedules have been established for the FEL and it's Nuclear Power Source as well as debate about how many smaller FEL's using a different Non-Nuclear Power Source for the U.S. Army, Marines and Air Force although breakthroughs in Micro-Reactors may allow Nuclear FEL's to be developed within Air Craft.

And...YES...the U.S. Military is DECADES to in some cases at least a CENTURY ahead in some areas of WARCRAFT. That's what happens when you spend TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS...last year...$1.3 Trillion...over MULTIPLE DECADES on your countries Military. It is not I that can be called the CHILD....the CHILD is the INEXPERIENCED...ILL INFORMED...READY TO CRY AT THE THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE WRONG.

You cry out...I am stupid. I am making things up! Really now....try a bit of research before you make such statements.

Just a little more...the SEAWOLF SUBMARINE...of which only one has been made due to cost and lack of a role in a Post Cold War World....is so quiet that even the USN is unable to detect it. A single Seawolf...which may receive the first Sub installed FEL....would be capable on it's own of destroying the entire Chinese Navy.
Split Infinity

Oh...and by the way...the J-20 is a DOG! The J-20 is the Chinese version of what the MiG-25 was supposed to represent for the Soviet Union. The J-20 is already obsolete!

The reason why the U.S. has decided not to build any more F/A-22's or build many F-35's is that the United States has dedicated it's Air Force to ROBOTIC DRONE CRAFT. There are several operational Robotic Drone Aircraft that have completed testing at Groom Lake.

They are all Very Stealthy and there is one for U.S. Carriers...one for the Air Force that will be used exclusively for Air Supremacy that makes the F-22 look like a Bi-Plane. Their is even a Robotic Chopper that does not look like a chopper at all. All of this is in line with the U.S. Armed Services plan of going 50 to 75% ROBOTIC in 10 years.

An Aircraft that does not need to take into account pilot not only can perform maneuvers that would KILL a pilot but also has an incredible range. It also allows a relatively small craft to have a larger bomb load than a larger man driven craft. The U.S. Carrier Gerald R. Ford will be the first to use these Robotic Craft exclusively. The FORD will also be the first Carrier to have an FEL. Split Infinity

Originally posted by Matt1951
reply to post by Drunkenparrot

 

Where do I start with such nonsense -

Lets look at the J20. By the way, they have two flying now. Yes, they might end up using Russian engines.
en.wikipedia.org...
J20 can supercruise, JSF cannot.

Pulling a bit of a bait and switch aren't you? Speaking of nonsense, what happened to your claim of China's superior space program? Or the J20 program becoming operational before the F-35?

Somebody has fallen for Bill Sweetman and Carlo Kopp's nonsensical anti F-35 media crusade.

First off, define supercruise... ? Here's some news that is lost on the masses, supercruise is an arbitrary marketing term.

The U.S. DOD defined super cruise as sustained speed

reply to post by DevilJonah


The U.S. Navy battle fleet tonnage is greater than that of the next 13 largest navies combined. It has the world's largest carrier fleet, with 11 in service, one under construction (two planned), and one in reserve. It operates 286 ships in active service and more than 3,700 aircraft. So i dont believe the navy is to worried about china.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Good, accurate post SplitInfinity.

I would point out that the German Type 212/214 diesel/electric untersee booten design is rumoured to be a serious contender for the current worlds quietest boat title. It makes sense as they don't require constantly operating machinery like the circulatory cooling pumps of their atom powered brethren although they are still obviously outclassed in performance and endurance by the nuke boats.

In their own littoral element, a diesel/electric sub with a sharp crew can cause serious grief for their ASW counterparts.

With that said the 3 Seawolf class boats are rumoured to be quieter doing 40knots at sea than the 688 Los Angeles class subs are when tied up dockside, I don't know about the Virginia's but I would believe they would be somewhat on par with the Seawolf class as they share a lot of common technology .

Nothing but speculation and rumours but worth mentioning.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot

Yes...The Germans....never underestimate their skills. You are right about that sub. The U.S. Navy has it's own Underwater version of Area 51 or Groom Lake where Water Jet Underwater versions of Jet Fighters are tested and deployed. I know just a Glimpse of what is and that Glimpse is astounding!

Back in the Day when I would go to Berlin and even get across to East Berlin where I had a TEAM of STASI...following my every move....I would think about how the U.S. had the advantage of getting German Scientists as none of them wanted to work under Stalin. Werner von Braum...the Creater of the SATURN V ROCKET that got us to the Moon...had said that HIS HERO was American Rocket Scientist Robert Goddard and how he could not believe that the U.S. did not take an interest in Goddard's Work which von Braum used as his inspiration from everything from the V-2 to the Saturn V. But the Germans were very advanced in the 40's...their Biggest Issue was they would build things too well and it would take more time as well as money as an example of the Transmission of a Panzer or Tiger Tank was built to last forever...when it needed only last a short while.

The U.S. Military does something very well...they LEARN FROM HISTORY and advocate way out of the Box thinking. Alot of this came from German Scientists but it was the melding of the two groups that allowed German inflexibility to mesh with American Practicality.

At this point...the U.S. Military is truly far and away out in front by possibly the largest gap that has ever existed between any group of Countries Military History. Russia is the Big Looser as they could have been a part of the proposed Missile Defense Grid but PUTIN STUPIDLY Bitched. Now Russia is out...and the U.S. has made the Breakthrough. Split Infinity