Incommensurability, Orthodoxy and the Physics of High Strangeness

Anyone on this forum who is unfamiliar with Jacques Vallee needs to get familiar. Very intelligent. Very informed. If you plan to do any serious thinking on the topic of UFOs, you should not fail to read him. Unlike most people who offer their opinions on the subject, Vallee has loads of experience actually interviewing UFO witnesses.

Here's a brief biography:

Jacques Fabrice Vallée (born September 24, 1939 in Pontoise, Val-d'Oise, France) is a venture capitalist, computer scientist, author, ufologist and former astronomer currently residing in San Francisco, California. In mainstream science, Vallée is notable for co-developing the first computerized mapping of Mars for NASA and for his work at SRI International in creating ARPANET, a precursor to the modern Internet. Vallée is also an important figure in the study of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), first noted for a defense of the scientific legitimacy of the extraterrestrial hypothesis and later for promoting the interdimensional hypothesis.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's a rather mind-bending paper co-authored by Vallee that exemplifies some of his thinking regarding UFOs. CAUTION - LITERACY REQUIRED

Incommensurability, Orthodoxy and the Physics of High Strangeness: A 6-Layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena

The main argument presented in this paper is that the continuing study of unidentified aerial phenomena (“UAP”) may offer an existence theorem for new models of physical reality. The current SETI paradigm and its “assumption of mediocrity” place restrictions on forms of non-human intelligence that may be researched. A similar bias exists in the ufologists’ often-stated hypothesis that UAP, if real, must represent space visitors. Observing that both models are biased by anthropomorphism, the authors attempt to clarify the issues surrounding “high strangeness” observations by distinguishing six layers of information that can be derived from UAP events, namely (1) physical manifestations, (2) anti-physical effects, (3) psychological factors, (4) physiological factors, (5) psychic effects and (6) cultural effects. In a further step they propose a framework for scientific analysis of unidentified aerial phenomena that takes into account the incommensurability problem.

Vallee also has several very good books on the UFO phenomenon that you can find extremely cheap on Amazon.

Fun Fact: If you've ever seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind, you know the French scientist? That character was based on him.

Enjoy!

The "problem" with valle is that he claims aliens dont come from space.

With that in mind not many are willing to follow his logic.And its a tough pill to swallow.

His theories are sound i like them,but people are more ready to accept the out of planet theory than other dimension theory

at least for the time being

I do hope we get to hear a lenghty interview here on ats

Ps the only thing i disagree with him is his classification system.I liked Ce 1-3 of hyneks better

reply to post by Orkojoker

Anyone on this forum who is unfamiliar with Jacques Vallee needs to get familiar. Very intelligent. Very informed. If you plan to do any serious thinking on the topic of UFOs, you should not fail to read him. Unlike most people who offer their opinions on the subject, Vallee has loads of experience actually interviewing UFO witnesses.

I definitely agree with you on that one; Vallee is unavoidable if anyone is prepared to get deep into the UFO enigma. He's been at it since the mid-1960s and his thoughts have changed from half-supporting the ETH to now holding a more difficult to express idea. Supernatural, dark and deceptive are the themes of this 'control system.'

The paper is essentially asking if some UFOs represent a technology that has crossed beyond our ideas of tech and into something like a hybrid psychic, dimension-straddling magical concept. In Vallee's ideas of this, we're thinking of something that might exist as a solid object, but it also exists at a level where it interfaces with the subconscious of the person experiencing the event. On that deep level, it has the power to change the person, induce psychic abilities and effectively have 'control.' In computer terms, he asks if the UFO can 'hack' our existence and take on Admin rights.

*If* they/it have this hacking capability for individuals - do they have wider, societal control too? These are the questions he asks.

I don't agree with his take on everything, but a lot of his thoughts are very interesting indeed. His arguments against the ETH don't really hold for example. At the same time, elements of the UFO enigma really are way past the simplistic notion of visiting expeditions.

Consciousness is possibly the key to understanding more about some UFOs and we're a long way from even understanding what it is yet. It doesn't make a lot of sense explaining an unknown with another unknown.

Vallee is quite brilliant and his hypotheses sound extremely tenable in most cases however I have come to believe that there are various types of abductions occurring by various parties of abductors with different agendas, different technologies and different points of origin.

Originally posted by Orkojoker

www.youtube.com...

Anyone on this forum who is unfamiliar with Jacques Vallee needs to get familiar. Very intelligent. Very informed. If you plan to do any serious thinking on the topic of UFOs, you should not fail to read him. Unlike most people who offer their opinions on the subject, Vallee has loads of experience actually interviewing UFO witnesses.

//---snip--//

Here's a rather mind-bending paper co-authored by Vallee that exemplifies some of his thinking regarding UFOs. CAUTION - LITERACY REQUIRED

Incommensurability, Orthodoxy and the Physics of High Strangeness: A 6-Layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena

//---snip--//

Vallee also has several very good books on the UFO phenomenon that you can find extremely cheap on Amazon....

//---snip--//

Enjoy!

Anyone new to the UFO topic, especially if stuck in that daily youtube video rut, would do well to shift gears and watch ALL of the videos on Orkojoker's youtube channel, actually. They're well done. (With diverse and appropriate musical choices, too; think I even heard Footprints or maybe Nefertiti on one!?) And there's something about seeing or hearing a witness describe his or her UFO encounter that reminds us of the human element to all of this. Look at Peca's neighbor (Colusa sightings) as she describes her experience. (It's in the video "Unknown - True Stuff About UFOs (part 1 and 2)") Something deep inside tells me this woman is not lying, and did not just mis-perceive a mundane object. Watch for yourselves.

As to Vallee -- the topic here!! -- I was a late arrival, at first a little turned off by his skepticism towards the ET hypothesis and his apparent endorsement of hypotheses even more "out there" than it. (Yes, I personally believe the ETH to be the most reasonable and rational of the set of 'strange' hypotheses.) But wow, how I wish I'd picked him up earlier. He's probably the most original thinker on this topic that I'm aware of, and even when I disagree with him, the quality of his insight always stimulates interesting thought. I'm re-reading "Confrontations" right now, and it definitely challenges one's assumptions regarding UFOs. Brilliant.

One or two of Vallee's books are freely (and legally) available online, IIRC? I can't remember where, but will try to find the link....

Another nice thread, Orkojoker. Yours always seem to get some interesting exchanges going, and given the content of that "Incommensurability" paper, I'm sure this one will be no exception.

reply to post by TeaAndStrumpets
Yeah, I've paid for a couple of books and poached the rest from 'various sources.'

On his own site, people can download some of his articles on UFOs. The one on physical traces is always interesting. It also ties in with your reading of Confrontations because I seem to remember he discussed the molten metals in there.

Michael Swords is also one of the most dynamic thinkers in ufology. He's like an antidote to Vallee which, in my opinion, makes them both essential. If you haven't read this already...have a look.

For anyone reading the Vallee papers and getting a taste for the higher end of ufology, this is a superb place to start looking.

Another possible cause of the whole UFO phenomenon that I just thought of and don't know if it has been discussed here or by debunkers or ufologists is what they used to call extra-low-frequency sound, which can be generated by seismic activity hundreds of miles away, make dogs bark, wild animals run for cover, and human perception to go slightly haywire. The Wikipedia article on infrasound (the modern term) covers some of that. I know there is a university research project in Japan about how dogs give early warning for earthquakes. But my neighborhood has had one 6.0 shake and plenty above 5.0 in the past year or so, and the dogs always bark before the action starts, supposedly in response to those sound waves below the threshold of human perception.

But in the past there was talk of secret research on mind control with what they then called ELF sound waves.

en.wikipedia.org...

If you are interested in these topics with a high degree of scientic application then maybe the subject of Xenology would be quite interesting for you www.xenology.info...

There are quite a lot of people working in these areas and despite not being a mainstream branch of science it is gaining a lot of public support with the growing body of public evidence surrounding these topics.

Originally posted by IMSAM
the only thing i disagree with him is his classification system.I liked Ce 1-3 of hyneks better

He created it for the main purpose of adding other non-UFO anomalies, such as some poltergeist phenomena, apports (materialized objects), and areas of flattened grass; reports of ghosts, yetis, and other instances of cryptozoology as well as elves and spirits.

It also includes as well near-death experiences, religious miracles and visions, and many cases of out-of-body experiences.

This chart was presented in its book: "Confrontations", New York: Ballantine, in 1990.

For those who don't know what this classification is, here's what it's all about:

This section provides definitions of the twenty "types" of anomalous sighting reports, indicated by two letters and a number, presenting them in a two-dimensional matrix comprising four groups with five categories within each group. Once a "type" is determined and affixed to a report, it provides for others a quickly understood indicator of the proximity and behavior of a phenomenal event, as well as its level of interaction with the witness(es) and the physical environment. Field Investigators are encouraged to learn and use this readily memorable classification system.

Vallee has proposed four groups with five categories in each group that form a neat, two-dimensional structure (see diagram). The CE group will be mostly familiar, as it has developed from Hynek's famous three categories: Close Encounters of the First, Second and Third Kinds, with a fourth category added to describe the abduction phenomenon and a fifth to denote wounds, scarring, healing or death. For distant flying objects (following Hynek's definition of 500 feet, 150 meters, or more), Vallee suggests classifying them according to the apparent behavior of the object rather than circumstances independent of it, such as daylight or night, into two groups: MA for "maneuvers" and FB for "flyby." The genius of this scheme is in the introduction of the AN group for "anomaly," which allows the classification of the full range and variety of phenomena with which we must deal, such as flashes of light illuminating the sky, detonations or shock-waves from no known source, misplaced masses of earth, persons relocated large distances in a short space of time, sounds, images or artifacts specifically associated with the flying saucer phenomenon in the minds of the reporters (with the agreement of the MUFON investigators) in situations where no flying object was actually seen.

More about it:
Jacques Vallee Classification of UFO Reports
Reality Transformation

For those not old enough to remember, Vallee lost a lot of support back when he first started getting into his "strangeness" model: His views on sychronicity were just too outrageous to even be discussed "intelligently." However, his argument made an impression on Dr. Allen Hynek who eventuallyalluded to something beyond a solely physical presence for UFOs.

The problem is that nothing is more abhorrent to the earthly scientific mind that mental magic, psi powers. That mind block is even more welded into place than believing in the reality of UFOs. But times are changing, as more and more earth-like planets are found out there, we will first accept the physical reality of alien beings and then deal with the high strangeness.

Really, folks not only are they here in some form of "transports." but they can read your mind, make you do their bidding, and change your core values. I've lived it. And THAT is the biggest horror factor the ETs bring to us because it leaves us utterly defenseless in every way, physically, mentally and spiritually. Those of you that have the even the slightest idea that we can contact with these beings on a one-to-one basis needs to fully appreciate the historical record of the UFOs involvement with us and do some forward thinking beyond being a mere human awash in self-limiting denial.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Thanks Kandinsky. Some great info there. Interestingly, I read that Michael Swords piece you reference ("Could Extraterrestrial Intelligences be Expected to Breathe Our Air?") just last week, and was impressed. He pulls no punches, does he?!? I'll definitely be reading more of his work.

As to Vallee, anyone who'd like an 'easy' introduction to him might enjoy this
audio interview, from 2008. Yes, it's from Coast To Coast A.M., and many of us surely have occasional issues with the show, but this Vallee interview is well done. It's over an hour long, and touches on many UFO sub-topics. (A heads up: I think you'll need to be registered at the C2C site in order to listen there, but I know the interview used to be on youtube also. A search for "Vallee Contact, long" should pull it right up....)

I love Vallee's dedication to the topic and his unique insights. Like others, I simply disagree with his conclusions as to the ET hypothesis. To me, the evidence for nuts and bolts saucers is much stronger than the evidence for these really strange aspects of some sightings which he latches onto. He says ETH proponents typically ignore those strange aspects, but I disagree. Most just can't give them equal weight to strong physical cases like Lakenheath '56 or Minot '68. And to me, if advanced ET intelligence is involved, I'd EXPECT some sightings to appear to have supernatural aspects. That doesn't make it truly supernatural; it just makes it ET / future science that we can't begin to comprehend. But I'm open to wherever the evidence leads, and still... love the guy!

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by TeaAndStrumpets

 

Michael Swords is also one of the most dynamic thinkers in ufology. He's like an antidote to Vallee which, in my opinion, makes them both essential. If you haven't read this already...have a look.

For anyone reading the Vallee papers and getting a taste for the higher end of ufology, this is a superb place to start looking.

Great links, Kandinsky. And I'd have to agree that Michael Swords is one of THE best writers on this topic. I was also very impressed with Thomas Bullard's book The Myth and Mystery of UFOs, a sample of which can be read here.

Originally posted by TeaAndStrumpets
One or two of Vallee's books are freely (and legally) available online, IIRC? I can't remember where, but will try to find the link....

Here's a link to Vallee's rather controversial (at the time) opus Passport to Magonia.

Hard copies of this, as well as copies of his other books from the same period -The Invisible College and Messengers of Deception - are rather pricey (although the latter was recently republished and can be had at normal book price), so this pdf is a great thing. I credit karl12 with first bringing it to my attention.

I've not read all of these classics yet, but the more recent Dimensions/Confrontations/Revelations series - which I have read - supposedly covers and updates much of the same material as Vallee's earlier works.

reply to post by Orkojoker
If you don't have the time, or just don't like reading, Vallee was interviewed for BoA by Tim Binnall. It's nearly two hours of solid, unbroken interview and Binnall asks the right questions.

BoA - Jacques Vallee - 2008

It's an excellent interview in many ways. Vallee talks about the book trilogy, Skinwalker Ranch and why he doesn't like the ETH. They talk about the effects on society and the presence of hoaxers in the field.

In arguing against the ETH, he makes the astounding suggestion that ET could be similar to the octopus...not his best idea. This is a good thing though, because as much as we admire guys like Vallee they can be wrong at times too.

Of the Trilogy, Messengers of Deception left the biggest impression on me. They're all good reads, but that one is more important. He points the finger at the side of ufology that's full of deception. In fact, he does what some of us on ATS get bitched at for doing. Yep, somehow Jacqes Vallee is able to hold two concepts in his head all at once. Two different ideas both at the same time!

1 ~ Some UFO phenomena are real
2 ~ Ufology is full of hoaxers and hoaxes - some instigated and tended by Intel of various countries

There it is!

reply to post by Kandinsky


Thanks for contributing so much to the thread! I've imbibed about every Vallee interview I've been able to track down over the last few years, and he never disappoints - despite the variable quality of the interviewers.

You make a good point regarding the fallibility of us all - including our favorites and "heroes" in this field. Vallee is definitely among my top guys when it comes to UFOs, but that's not to say I agree with him 100%. In particular, his Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of Unidentified Flying Objects leave something to be desired.

Five specific arguments articulated here contradict the ETH: (1) unexplained close encounters are far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth; (2) the humanoid body structure of the alleged "aliens" is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel; (3) the reported behavior in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race; (4) the extension of the phenomenon throughout recorded human history demonstrates that UFOs are not a contemporary phenomenon; and (5) the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives, three of which are proposed in outline form as a conclusion to this paper.

Interesting read nonetheless.

Here's a talk Vallee gave last year at the Global Competitiveness Forum: