Surgeon: Remove Kidneys for Transplant Before Donor's Death

I suppose they aren't planning on using anesthesia either. Even with those they consider "dead" they should be. And their assumptions on coma and brain death are ludicrous.

anesthesia
Some coma patients 'feel pain'

www.ewtn.com...

Mr. Cetrulo points out that most organ removals are now performed under anesthesia:

"Without sedation, such operations can bring troubling sights, says Phillip Keep, a consultant anesthetist at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital: "Almost everyone will say they have felt uneasy about it. Nurses get really, really upset. You stick the knife in and the pulse and blood pressure shoot up. If you don't give anything at all, the patient will start moving and wriggling around and it's impossible to do the operation."

He concludes, "You need to reexamine the concept of your signature on your driver's license, authorizing the donation of organs. Many organs do not survive your death, and their "harvesting" in effect causes your death. You cannot morally give them away before you're finished with them!"

Originally posted by BuggingWicked
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

I remember watching a film where rich people would have a clone made and they would harvest the organs from the clone all pretty gruesome. Hope thats not the way we are going, seems abit unethicall to me.

The film was called THE ISLAND (1995)

In 2019, Lincoln Six Echo and Jordan Two Delta are best friends in a repressive and intriguing society, where everybody expects to win the lottery. The prize is to move to a paradisaical island outside the domes that protect the dwellers against the contaminated environment. Jordan wins the lottery, and Lincoln accidentally finds the scary truth behind the Utopian award: they are clones, generated to provide replacement organs and parts to the owners of insurance policy.

edit on 6-6-2012 by BuggingWicked because: remembered film

This is somewhat the premise of "Never Let Me Go" as well, clones created specifically for organ harvesting. Very sad film!

Originally posted by kosmicjack
Every few months there is a story in the news about someone who was "as good as dead", in a coma or whatever, and yet they wake up and pull through. For instance, the baby who woke up in the morgue...

This is really just barbarism disguised as science.

Agreed. They are too quick to pronounce, and this would just give them more incentive to do so and less incentive to keep trying to save those "less valuable".

The Monty Python movie 'The Meaning of Life' had a skit in it about pre-death organ donation.

We've come for your liver.

Originally posted by PeterWiggin
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

I don't like admitting this out loud, but this and related matters are one reason I'm no longer an organ donor.

You mentioned that slippery slope? Yeah - I don't see what's much more slippery than not bothering to try resuscitating or otherwise preventing death in those who could be saved, since you can instead get yourself a new batch of fresh organs available for transplant instead.

I don't know how often that actually happens, but I've seen more than one report on it, and that's at least two more than enough for me. I'll update my will for organs to be donated or my body to go to science, perhaps, but I'm not letting some responders make that call if there's a chance they'll not fight as hard to save me as they would if I wasn't a donor.

The problem is, is that even if you are NOT an organ donor, your family will be pressed to say yes. Even if you ARE an organ donor, you still have to have a family member give the OK. Honestly, the donor cards don't really mean anything one way or another. I guess if you are homeless or have no living family or die at the scene of an accident, that is when they start to matter.

I am an organ donor. As much as I dislike thinking about the elements of the topic at hand, I think that the gift of life via organ donation is perhaps the most selfless thing one can do. Did you know that you can specifiy which organs one can and cannot harvest from you? You can simply write it on the back of your license. Also tell your family, as they will be asked. I am allowing every viable internal organ, including my eyes, but am not donating my skin. I know it could save a life, but I am really grossed out by that for some reason. I just do not want to be skinned like an animal. It is selfish, but skin is my limit, I guess

reply to post by mountaingirl1111
What you say here is good, and true - and aside from the selfishness with your skin, it's pretty much a perfect example of christian fearlessness and selflessness, your possible beliefs aside.

It's one of those things I'll have to try to come to terms with, I suppose. Thinking about it, I don't really enjoy this world all that much anyway - I grow weary since it's busted - but then again, I am also depended on and so would want them to fight for me.

Conversely, though...what sort of additional expenses would such a situation end up putting on those who depend on me?

Complex issue...requires more though. Thanks for getting me all mixed up!

reply to post by mountaingirl1111
That is all well and good. In a perfect world I would agree with you. This is not that world, and I am concerned that someone "more important" than I might just need my liver more than I do; at least in their opinion anyway. Here in the USA money trumps all. There is no way I am volunteering for it.

Originally posted by PeterWiggin
reply to post by mountaingirl1111

 

What you say here is good, and true - and aside from the selfishness with your skin, it's pretty much a perfect example of christian fearlessness and selflessness, your possible beliefs aside.

It's one of those things I'll have to try to come to terms with, I suppose. Thinking about it, I don't really enjoy this world all that much anyway - I grow weary since it's busted - but then again, I am also depended on and so would want them to fight for me.

Conversely, though...what sort of additional expenses would such a situation end up putting on those who depend on me?

Complex issue...requires more though. Thanks for getting me all mixed up!

I'm not a Christian, just spiritual in a non-new-agey way It is a complex issue, one I have gone back-and-forth with for years. It wasn't until I was debating a green burial over cremation did I really think about it and I just figured they'd be going to waste either way. I don't know, guess I believe in Karma more than anything and I think that maybe it's good on that kind of soul level.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
reply to post by mountaingirl1111

 

That is all well and good. In a perfect world I would agree with you. This is not that world, and I am concerned that someone "more important" than I might just need my liver more than I do; at least in their opinion anyway. Here in the USA money trumps all. There is no way I am volunteering for it.

I totally get what you mean, I do. I'm just thinking of family as a safety net, they do have to be asked and questioned first. I guess if they start lying about my situation in order to speed things along, that is kind of wild. However, I'm DNR anyway, so life support and comas aren't going to happen for my anyway. If I was in some kind of car accident with my family and no one was around to dictate my wishes, I'd probably just want to die anyway.

Did you know that there are avenues for organ donation outside of traditional death-bed style or where receivers aren't specified by hospitals? There are plenty of live donors who meet up with receivers who are too far down the list (i.e., broke) via certain websites. I think that's a great idea and it has started to become more popular. You get to see people and their stories, etc., and I think that's the most selfless way, although live donation does carry an inherent risk, obviously.

reply to post by DarthMuerte

Let me relate an event to you that might add an element for discussion. Some years ago I attended a local sports meeting where cultural hotheads got even further wound up and became increasingly loud and defiant until someone actually passed around a bottle of aspirin. The woman who presided and who presented the more encompassing viewpoint was stunned by the merciless attack that people were about to stand their ground even if it meant a cultural war in the community. Whoever came to the broader idea's defense was also subjected to loud ranting diatribes. I won't go into further details.

However, since the president had asked me for a ride home, I had to stick around until the end. I was walking towards the exit with someone when she approached from behind and upon reaching us, collapsed into unconsciousness. To make a long story short, I picked up her sister and daughter who lived nearby and followed the ambulance to the ER. There the hospital asked for her ID and the sister showed that the woman clearly wanted to be an organ donor. Within an hour we learned that she has suffered a major stroke, but not the clotting kind. Rather she had had a brain hemorrhage, a kind that is always fatal within 72 hours. Clearly there would be a scramble to find and prepare the recipients. I remained at the hospital while the daughter and sister visited for a couple of minutes every hour. After six hours, the woman's limbs, hands and feet were quite discolored. Her body was clearly shutting down. She was unable to breathe on her own. It was her sister who discussed with the surgeon how her organs would be used to help up six recipients. The surgeon explained that with every passing minute, the organs were also dying and would be unusable. All this to say that timing can be vital. The woman was finally moved to the OR where she was pronounced dead as soon as the respirator was removed. Two of her organs were transplanted. Her orphan daughter is consoled by the thought that her mom helped someone else to live.

reply to post by aboutface
A very moving story. The point I get from it is that they did not take the organs until she was dead. It was entirely voluntary and her family knew of and validated her decision. I have no problem with that. I want us to stay off of the slippery slope of harvesting from the still living. I do not want to go where that will end up.

reply to post by mountaingirl1111

I'm not a Christian, just spiritual in a non-new-agey way

Now you've got me curious - slightly off-topic, but could you clarify? No judgement, love from me regardless. Just wondering what non-new age spirituality is like.

It is a complex issue, one I have gone back-and-forth with for years. It wasn't until I was debating a green burial over cremation did I really think about it and I just figured they'd be going to waste either way. I don't know, guess I believe in Karma more than anything and I think that maybe it's good on that kind of soul level.

Hah...that's actually kind of where I started out with the organ donor thing, and then I started hearing horror stories. I guess time will tell where I come down on it eventually - if done properly, I love the idea...but I can't stand the thought of unnecessarily ending up in an early grave and being taken from those who love and rely on me.

Why does it seem like humans always find a way to screw up a good thing?

If you are good as dead , and if you read the article , the only thing keeping you being from clinically dead are life support machines , then i don't think you would care very much if they take your organs. You also still have to give permission.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Thanks, Darth Muerte. Where money is involved, as I,m sure it is in organ transplants in the USA, this proposed practice would be wide open to abuse for profit, and as someone else has said it,s a slippery slope.

Example.: A citizen may come into A and E following a car crash, badly injured, but potentially survivable. Who could challenge the consultant / surgeon, that let this person die, because they could make money out of organ sales ? Who would be any the wiser ?

It,s wrong. I dare say there,ll be objections from a variety of religious faiths, too....

Originally posted by milkyway12
If you are good as dead , and if you read the article , the only thing keeping you being from clinically dead are life support machines , then i don't think you would care very much if they take your organs. You also still have to give permission.

Then you misread the article, or missed part of it. THEY DECIDE when you are as good as dead. Now it is when there is "no hope" of recovery(How many people have woken up on the autopsy table, or just before embalming lately?), later it might come down to "quality of life" or relative contribution to society. Read between the lines. They always push the envelope "just a little bit" and then some hairy dude has his hands down your daughter's pants(or your son's) just because you wanted to go to grandma's house for Christmas.

As usual, old news. It has been going on for a while in other parts of the world and now it is getting some attention in the US. Even despite the tough laws in US, people find a way to remove organs without authorization. Ofcourse the world of organ trafficking is a big market so you will only see more and more of such cases.

Organ_Trafficking_1
Organ_Trafficking_2

Originally posted by DarthMuerte


Here is the part that worries me most.

Though not dead yet, they are 'as good as dead' from an ethical perspective," wrote Franklin Miller, a bioethicist at the National Institutes of Health, along with Dr. Robert Truog, a professor of medical ethics, anesthesiology and pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. "No harm or wrong is committed by procuring vital organs prior to stopping life support

To me this is the first step down a slippery slope. "As good as dead" means still alive. So now they want to start harvesting based on "quality of life" in that you will soon be dead so why not get those organs now? When does it become "The recipient will contribute much more to society than the donor ever could"? Thank God I never signed up to become a donor. I plan to revise my will specifically stating my intentions to never donate. Eventually, we may not get the choice. We may all just become "organ farms" for the rich and powerful and to me this is the first step on that path.


gma.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

This is basically one step away from having a pretty woman dressed like a slut seduce a man and drug him and then steal his kidneys, leaving him a huge gaping wound while he wakes up in icewater.

Want to solve the problem? Take yourself off the organ donor list. China has hospitals built right next to prisons that way when an order for an organ is placed on the blackmarket it stays fresh until the "donor" is executed. The U.S. is probably on the way towards doing that and not just with prisoners. Someone comes in with a concussion just send em on back, they'll cure that headache by taking all your organs and leaving you a hollow shell of meat.

This is going to get alot worse man, grusesome.

reply to post by DarthMuerte

Wow! I was just reading this:

“Bioethics” Journal Pushes Organ Donations on Living Patients
www.lifenews.com...

Here we go again! The push to transform the most ill and disabled living human bodies into so many organ farms continues among some bioethicists and within organ transplant ethical discourse. Now, an article in the American Journal of Bioethics, written by organ surgeon and medical professor Paul E Morrissey, urges that patients who are going to have life support removed and then become organ donors after death, instead have their kidneys harvested while still alive. From the Abstract:

Welcome to the future where bioethicists play God and we are supposed to go along with their ideas.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


You know, this is quite important now that I consider it more.

I heard a discussion on the radio last week about who should be the ones to decide whether to remove life-saving machines. There are of course good arguments to be made on both sides, but if families cede that most important right, that slippery slope would be already in use. It's all tied together and we must not forfeit our values even though there is a lot of intimidation yet to come.

So kudos to you for this thread. It's made me think a lot more than you might have believed.

reply to post by aboutface
Thank you for that. Awakening even one more person to what is going on makes starting this thread worthwhile.