Commandos Raid Tampa, Dept Demands Power to Declare War

reply to post by CagliostroTheGreat


If you want to believe in that pacifist nonsense, then that's your perogative. But to me, pacifism is cowardice, pure and simple. It's the unwillingness to stand up and defend the innocent, even when their lives are being threatened. A person who doesn't have something he or she is willing to fight for doesn't have a soul. And it's easy to renounce violence and fighting until your own loved ones are the ones whose lives are risked. If someone can still renounce violence in that kind of situation, then they're the greatest kind of coward, in my opinion.

Pacifism is an excuse, an excuse to avoid risking your own life for the sake of others.

Originally posted by Gauss
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or not seeing the full picture...

But. Firstly, it's adviseable in my opinion to leave counter-terrorism to special operations forces of the military variety, rather than police "Counter-terrorism units". Experience, superior training and weapons are the main reasons for this, but also because most of the time, police is forced to negotiate with terrorists before taking action - and everybody knows negotiating with terrorists is a big no-no.

.

Makes a lot of sense,todays fundamentalist Islamic extremist is not really open to negotiation,therefore sending in a force who are trained to negate the threat as quickly as possible might be the only option,a head shot in this case being more prudent than a law enforcement official with a megaphone.

Originally posted by Gauss
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or not seeing the full picture...

But. Firstly, it's adviseable in my opinion to leave counter-terrorism to special operations forces of the military variety, rather than police "Counter-terrorism units". Experience, superior training and weapons are the main reasons for this, but also because most of the time, police is forced to negotiate with terrorists before taking action - and everybody knows negotiating with terrorists is a big no-no.

And I'd say what you are saying is a load of hogwash ...

A. What is terrorism?

ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun:
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

And, what? that somehow ##SNIP##, is a picture of Islamic Arabs, or south American communists, claiming "release our brothers in prison, or we blow ourselves up"?

After, what ... a whole century of terrorism, and "non-negotiating-with-terrorists" policy, don't you think that the Arabs would get it by now?

Maybe you're one of these supremists, who thinks all Arabs are idiots ... and only you AMERICANS have brains, right? right? ... yo MAMA.

Now, you TRY for once in your puny life to make some logical conclusions between cause and effect ... ##SNIP##

IFF terrorism IS "The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." AND terrorism IS INCREASING. Then it must mean that these political aims are being obtained ... at least partially, or in a greater part than lesser part.

And if you cannot make the connection, that perhaps it's your own government that is making the intimidations, for the purpose of getting it's own political aims ....

##SNIP##

Who is benefitting from all these terrorist acts?

Who is getting all their political aims?

Who is being intimidated, and by what?


And the answer to the first question is, that it sure as hell isn't Saddam Hussein, and sure as hell isn't Ghaddaffi, and it sure as hell isn't Usama Bin Laden.

The answer to the next question is, the western powers ... the US and, at least partially, it's allies. Althgouh this could also include countries such as China, as it's getting a lot of power through failing western economy. And it would also say it benefits partially Iran. But it doesn't benefit N.Korea. Does it benefit Russia? Assuming political does not mean economic ... the answer to this question would be US & Co.

The answer to the last question is YOU and ME ... I am being intimidated. I am being intimidated by threats of terrorist acts in my home, on the streets, in the air terminal. And the political aim, is APPARANTLY, to be able to limit my freedom.

So, if the true terrorist act ... if we assume, that the true terrorism in the western world is to intimidate you and me, to be fearful and that the true aim of our own government, is to limit our freedom and to ensure it's own power over us ...

Then the political aims are being fullfilled all over the world, and it's the logical answer to why terrorism is not decreasing and why our freedom is not being given back to us.

Saying that terrorism is being done by Usama Bin Ladin, or any of his cohorts ... who, with this terrorism is losing power over almost all of the middle east. That the supporters of this terrorism is Ghaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Khomeini and Usama Bin Ladin and claiming that they are continuing their crusade after their death ... or as a revenge for their death ... is about the most ignorant, and dumbest bull anyone can think off ...

It must ALWAYS be conducted in any investigation, that in a crime there is a benefactor ... and the people who benefit, must be ... AND I DEMAND THAT THEY MUST BE THE PRIMARY SUSPECTS.

reply to post by bjarneorn


Well, I'm glad we disagree on that...?

Anyway, between all the angry insults and the ranting and raving of your post, what I could figure out was it boiled down to - terrorists -> innocent. US government -> Terrorists. We -> Slaves. Yes? Sorry, dude. I'm a pragmatic person, and I don't play that game. The terrorist is the person that holds the gun to the head of the civilian. Then along comes a soldier and puts a bullet in his brain, regardless of if he's working for Al-Qaeda or CIA. The people who back him is someone else's headache. I'm just worried about him, and his hostage. And while he needs to die, his hostage needs to survive.

Also, there's reasons that the terrorists keep doing what they do. Because not everybody in history have followed the "Don't negotiate with terrorists" doctrine - many times because of weak-willed politicians. Now, I'm done talking to you, because I find no pleasure in talking to someone who needs to resort to insults and angry ravings. I'm also alerting the mods to your post. While I can take insults towards myself, "mah mama" does not deserve your petty ravings.

reply to post by SoulVisions


Well, If the President were to get kidnapped and held somewhere in the US. You can bet your bottom dollar that it would be Special Ops guys that went in to get him.

I see no problem here at all. We also conduct training exercises in the US all the time. It is what we do here, we train.

Wow! Talk about sensationalizing a story. There is no violation of the PCA by what happened here, it was a mock training exercise. Even if this weren't a drill and it was an actual scenario in which our DEVGRU Counter Terrorism Force was deployed to neutralize an actual terrorist threat it would not violate the Posse Comitatus Act since they were being deployed to neutralize an enemy terror cell within our borders. Your logic would seem to dictate that if Chinese troops suddenly airdropped into downtown Tampa our military could not defend us from them.

I have had this discussion on many occasions regarding our borders and people always want to cite the PCA as a reason that our military is unable to perform their constitutionally stated duty. I can only speculate that this is due to a general misunderstanding of the PCA. The Posse Comitatus Act is governed under US Code 18 section 1385 and is intended to prohibit law enforcement agencies from using federal military force to enforce civilian law. It does not however prohibit military branches from performing duties to "keep the peace" if that duty is constitutionally granted or enacted by congress. It also does not prohibit the military from exercising their duties to secure our borders or provide for the defense of the nation as prescribed in the US Constitution.

The idea that terrorist activities within the US should be left for law enforcement is asinine. I am not trying to insult our law enforcement agencies but they are in no way equipped, nor do they have the training for extensive counter terrorism roles. Hell half the time they are so afraid of Sunday school teachers and handcuffed teenage drug addicts that they have to resort to shooting them 6 times or tazing them.

The members of DEVGRU, Delta, Force Recon, etc are well trained in CQC and counter terrorism so lets please allow them to do the job they have trained to do, trust me we will be much better off.

Now with that said, if this had been a situation of bringing in SEALS or Rangers to diffuse a hostage situation stemming from a random statutory crime I would be the first one on the phone to USSOCOM and SECNAV, as well as the representatives from FL.

reply to post by Nucleardiver


"It does not however prohibit military branches from performing duties to "keep the peace" if that duty is constitutionally granted or enacted by congress. It also does not prohibit the military from exercising their duties to secure our borders or provide for the defense of the nation as prescribed in the US Constitution. "

Is the cold water numbing you? Why don't you give some links or any factual information that even relates to a possible TERROIST VILLAGE in the USA??
The premise is total insanity. ERR maybe in a secret gobment location. But then how the heck would know?
To costly to have them under water.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by Nucleardiver

 

"It does not however prohibit military branches from performing duties to "keep the peace" if that duty is constitutionally granted or enacted by congress. It also does not prohibit the military from exercising their duties to secure our borders or provide for the defense of the nation as prescribed in the US Constitution. "

Is the cold water numbing you? Why don't you give some links or any factual information that even relates to a possible TERROIST VILLAGE in the USA??
The premise is total insanity. ERR maybe in a secret gobment location. But then how the heck would know?
To costly to have them under water.

Normally when someone replies to one of my posts with the amount of arrogance and insulting attitude that you have displayed I will ignore them, however since you seem to thing that we are at pre-school and you are incapable of doing any of your own research I will provide links and tell you how I know.

How would I know you ask? Because I attended the US Naval Acadamy and was an officer in the United States Navy for 16 years, 12 of which was spent under the command of NSWC and USSOCOM and attached to a SWG assigned primarily to counter terrorism activities for the entirity of those 12 years until I took a round and shrapnel to the right side of my head resulting in the loss of my right eye, hearing in my right ear, as well as my upper and lower teeth on the right side of my jaw.

Subsequently in 2007 I received a medical discharge with commendations. That being said I am quite certain that I am much better versed on the rules of engagement/combat as well as the federal laws governing the use of the Armed Forces than you will ever be. Of course the fact that my father was a Rear Admiral that was assigned to JAG during the last 15 years of his 37 year service helps with my knowledge because he and I had many discussions about a lot of things political, military, and legal.

The Posse Comitatus Act has limitations on its scope and use, primarily being that it only describes the United States Army and Air Force as being bound by the act. However the DOD does have discretion to include the US Navy and Marine Corps under control of the act, at their discretion.

The US Coast Guard is immune under the PCA because they are governed by the US Dept of Transportation unless there has been an actual declaration of war by the congress then command is turned over to SECNAV. The National Guard is under command of the Governors of each individual state and therefore is not considered a federal force so the PCA does not ever apply to The GUard, even during a declaration of war and even if they are under DOD command. When The Guard is deployed under DOD command they are considered a reserve unit even when active and are still immune from PCA constraints.

Here is a brief summary of the limitations of the PCA for you:
The Posse Comitatus Act
•Applies only to the Army, and by extension the Air Force, which was formed out of the Army in 1947.
•Does not apply to the Navy and Marine Corps. However, the Department of Defense has consistently held that the Navy and Marine Corps should behave as if the act applied to them.
•Does not apply to the Coast Guard, which is part of the Department of Transportation and is both an armed force and a law enforcement agency with police powers.
•Does not apply to the National Guard in its role as state troops on state active duty under the command of the respective governors.
•May not apply to the National Guard even when it is called to federal active duty. The Posse Comitatus Act contains no restrictions on the use of the federalized militia as it did on the regular Army.9 It is commonly believed, however, that National Guard units and personnel come under the Posse Comitatus Act when they are on federal active duty, and this interpretation is followed today.
•Does not apply to state guards or State Defense Forces under the command of the respective governors.
•Does not apply to military personnel assigned to military police, shore police, or security police duties. The military police have jurisdiction over military members subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. They also exercise police powers over military dependents and others on military installations. The history of the law makes it clear that it was not intended to prevent federal police (for example, marshals) from enforcing the law.
•Does not apply to civilian employees, including those who are sworn law enforcement officers. The origin and legislative history of the act make it clear that it applies only to military personnel. In those days, there were no civilian employees of the Army in the sense that there are today. In particular, no one envisioned that the Army would hire civilian police officers to enforce the law.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Title 18 U.S. Code, Section 831, provides that if nuclear material is involved in an emergency, the Secretary of Defense may provide assistance to the Department of Justice, notwithstanding the Posse Comitatus Act.

Title 10 U.S. Code, Chapter 18, authorizes military support for civilian law enforcement agencies for counterdrug operations and in emergencies involving chemical or biological weapons of mass destruction. The Secretary of Defense may provide information, allow the use of military equipment and facilities, train law enforcement officials in the operation and maintenance of military equipment, and maintain such equipment. Support for law enforcement agencies may not impair military readiness, and military personnel shall not participate in searches, seizures, arrests, or similar activities unless such participation is otherwise authorized by law.

Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1385

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

It is important to pay attention to the wording in Title 18, Section 1385 where it mentions "or Act of Congress". Since Congress is prescribe with the regulation of the military in the US Constitution if Congress passes any law authorizing the use of the Armed Forces for certain duties, even if they are within the US and are in support of law enforcement then those duties are exempt from PCA regulation since the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land and no treaty or law trumps the Constitution.

This is the dangers of the patriot act as well as the NDAA and NDRPA, since if congress makes it a law it will trump the PCA.

Now for links for you since you are incapable of using a search engine to educate yourself:
United States Army Combined Arms Center

Washington University Law Quarterly

NYU School of Law PDF

If you need more education let me know.

ETA1: Asking for "links" to information regarding any possible terrorist villages in the US is, well......asinine. Even if I had access to that intel it would be classified and would result in serious charges and punishment up to and including death for treason. I have been out way too long for anything I knew to be viable concerning current intel.

ETA2: You are obviously oblivious to deepwater diving. We have hot water circulated dry suits that keep us a toasty 80 degrees when in cold water, plus our hats which stay nice and warm so no the cold water has had zero effect on my thought process. However you may want to check into what makes you so combative on this forum.

reply to post by Nucleardiver


Well honestly I have changed the diapers of guys like you.
Here is my education for you and your like.
Please defend the citizens of MY/ OUR country. AND never team up with these COWARDS

Massacre at Ruby Ridge
www.[hate-site-nolink]/ruby.htm - Similarto Massacre at Ruby Ridge

Massacre at Ruby Ridge. ATF agent I suspect few government officials realized in 1992 the widespread anger and resentment their actions in a remote area of ...

Trans Ocean should have sent you down with a cork
lol lol ljb

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Uhm, okay........

Well I did my service, maybe you should enlist and do yours since you have so much experience with changing diapers. They could use a good man like you, there's plenty of blue canoes that need cleaning.

Insults huh? What are you 15 and experiencing a sudden surge in testosterone?

reply to post by Gauss


okay i agree with that. too bad thats not what i was talking about.

what i WAS talking about i thought was fairly obvious.

this: humans in general simply should not act violently towards one another. essentially what i am saying is that there is no excuse for any human to act violently toward another, this will obviously never happen so therefore it is nothing more than a pipe dream...

however, what is violence itself if not an excuse?

as i said, violence is an outdated concept, something, as intellegent humans, we should simply do away with not propagate as so many seem all to apt to do.

imagine a world with no violence whatsoever. can you honestly tell me you would not like to live in such a world?

reply to post by Nucleardiver


CG's immune because they're under homeland, their Officers & NonComs also have police powers per 19 U.S.C. § 1589a, 14 U.S.C. § 143, 19 U.S.C. § 1589a. This thread should really be hoaxed on account of the title alone.

reply to post by EyesWideShut


You are correct, I forgot about the acquisition of the CG into DHS in 03 when numerous agencies were placed under the newly formed DHS. And yes even before that they were immune since the were primarily a law enforcement organization, combined with the DOT command. Good job catching my mistake.

I also agree that this should be moved to hoax bin due to the purposefully misleading title I was ready to call a buddy at MacDill/USSOCOM to find out what was going on when I realized it was actually a training exercise. I still have a lot of family on the west central FL coast and was about to get worried as to what was going on.

I really don't understand why people feel the need to sensationalize, is there not enough bad # going on so they have to twist facts?

reply to post by Nucleardiver


If they didn't twist up what we do, they'd have nothing to complain about. In all seriousness though, I never understood the "Mysticism" that is associated with the military on this site.

"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."

reply to post by CagliostroTheGreat


Of course I would. But as you say, it's a pipe dream. So instead I'm opting to do what I can to protect the innocent and the weak, with violence if I have to.

Just wanted to post a few videos about the original post. The demonstration in Tampa was a joint international demonstration of special operations forces from various "allied" countries. It's about 25min long.

www.youtube.com...

Here are a few video of recent unexplained military "drills" in urban populated areas. The Chicago video was shortly before the NATO summit. I'm sure you all have seen these but I felt it was important to the above subject matter. The videos are short news reports from local stations.
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...
Here is a Wired article about how the NSA is tracking everything we are typing here.
www.wired.com...

Originally posted by Nucleardiver
reply to post by EyesWideShut

 

You are correct, I forgot about the acquisition of the CG into DHS in 03 when numerous agencies were placed under the newly formed DHS. And yes even before that they were immune since the were primarily a law enforcement organization, combined with the DOT command. Good job catching my mistake.

I also agree that this should be moved to hoax bin due to the purposefully misleading title I was ready to call a buddy at MacDill/USSOCOM to find out what was going on when I realized it was actually a training exercise. I still have a lot of family on the west central FL coast and was about to get worried as to what was going on.

I really don't understand why people feel the need to sensationalize, is there not enough bad # going on so they have to twist facts?

I was not trying to be insulting. I was letting you know that I have actually changed the diapers of a youngster that became a Navy Seal. There is way more to it than just that.
As in your post you were concerned when it came to you and yours.
As a citizen it is best if you are concerned for ALL.
Unless you agree that the folks at Waco and Ruby Ridge got what they got BECAUSE they deserved it.
Then you will understand that it is totally improper to bring that brutality against your countryman.
Now as for all the legislation , rules and alphabet org's. you tout--
Are they not there more or less to just cover someone's ass and indoctrinate folks like you?. And little or no regard for the taxpayers.
The military is trained to do as ORDERED. I assume you follow them to the T.
This is dangerous in city streets.
The government that has sway over the active and reserve are a cadre of infighting and ineffective loose cannons . Just look at 0 grade job they did for 911.
Can you justify this--
Kent State shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings - Similarto Kent State shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre—occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and ...

Is the FBI and the CIA and the bla bla bla people incapable of doing their job?

Why would there be or should there be a VILLAGE of terrorists in America??

Totally assinine

reply to post by longjohnbritches


I try HARD to understand your posts, I REALLY DO! But I can't for the life of me pick up what you're laying down....EVER. I try to understand what your point is so I can counter it, but all I get is semi coherent OCD ramblings. I'll try to reply to something you say and your reply to me is something high and to the right like "yeah, when those spidermonkeys come a knocking, you best get your kibbles and bits ready for the show, they're not taking my supper kelly! And I'm left thinking "WTF is going on here?!?"