Hawaii to Arizona "Prove You Need It"

Originally posted by Ahabstar
He released a short form to FactCheck which was examined and certified by a PhD in Political Philosophy and a MA in English Literature. Not exactly high end document experts.

But the birther 'experts' who declared it fraudulent are?

The only experts that really matter are the officials who authenticate and verify Hawaiian birth certificates on a daily basis, which are those officials of the Hawaiian health department.

But then a second different looking short form was released by the Obama Campaign some time later.

That second one was a long form birth certificate, not a short form one. My original one at home has roughly the same amount of information as Obama's long form, and mine is a long form. There are birth certificates that exist that consist of two pages, but not all.

Then the pdf on WhiteHouse.gov which is also a bit suspect

Yes, it's a digital copy of Obama's original birth certificate, not the actual birth certificate in your hand. Aside from the information contained on the birth certificate, you can't declare it fraudulent because you found digital anomolies on the image. Maybe this is how it works for birthers, but not in the real world. The only way you will know for sure, on a personal level, it's an authentic birth certificate, is if you held it in your hand.

It all comes down to whether you believe Hawaiian officials, or the birther 'experts' who have no relevant credentials concerning Hawaiian birth certificates. If you are one to believe Hawaiian officials are the ones lying, then you'd better be prepared to carry the burden of a 49 year old conspiracy.

Well that and know that if should have been transfered to microfiche

A microfiche isn't going to change the minds of birthers because it won't change what is contained in the birth certificate. It's another excuse to make a demands.

Maybe you can explain to me why you want a microfiche in the first place? You can't use those at the DMV, you are aware of this? California for example:
www.dmv.ca.gov...

Microfiche birth records are purely for souvenir purposes, so why make a demand? Oh excuses.

no one has publicly seen that information, nothing has honestly collaborated

What do you mean no one? You have Hawaiian officials who have verified his birth. What, you don't believe them?

Please tell me that you believe Hawaiian officials are lying.

Bill Clinton was up on impeachment proceedings and even was voted by the House to be impeached over publicly lying about his involvement with Lewinsky.

Yep, and we wasted tax payer money on a GOP witchhunt, instead of sticking to the relevant matters in this nation. And look, we're doing it again, courtesy of the rightwing.

who's response to public requests to prove his eligibility has been three suspect birth certificates.

Three birth certificates? Where's the third one?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Yes, we do have a problem with vetting. George Romney ran for POTUS and was born In Mexico. He formally announce his nomination 11/18/1967 and dropped out after being behind in the polls on 2/28/1968. He submitted years of income tax records for vetting, but upon their return to the U.S. when George was a toddler, everyone just took their word that the family never renounced their U.S. citizenship when they fled Utah and moved to Mexico.

But were they U.S. citizens??? Did they ever swear allegiance to Mexico??

naturalborncitizen.com...

And even if they were citizens at one point, they may have relinquished their citizenship rights when they left the country. Many Native-Americans and Hispanics also left the Utah Territory for Mexico before it became a state. If those individuals or their decedents attempted to return to the United States like the Romney family did in July 1912 would they be citizens capable of running for President? In March 1907, a few months before George Romney was born Congress passed and the President signed a law that expatriated US citizens living abroad who became naturalized citizens of or swore an allegiance to a foreign country. Has anyone other than the person who maintains this website bothered to research whether George Romney's father (Gaskell) or his grandfather (Miles) done either of these things such that George Romney was not born to a father with US citizenship? Miles was even prosecuted in 1885 under the Edmunds Anti-Polygamy Act (for polygamy). This act allowed certain citizenship rights to be stripped of those convicted. Shortly after that he left for Mexico, taking his family with him. What impact did this have on his citizenship and that of his decedants born in Mexico?

Questions asked about his eligibility should have been answered. Why bother to have the requirement "natural born" if nobody makes sure the law is followed. It is another rip in the process of shredding the Constitution. If Obama isn't held accountable, what about the next guy, will he?

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
Yes, we do have a problem with vetting. George Romney ran for POTUS and was born In Mexico.

No we don't have a problem with vetting, birthers have a problem with the fact that nobody is listening to their nonsense about Obama.

As for George Romney, he was indeed eligible to be president and officials were well aware of his birth in Mexico well before he decided to run for the presidency:

Congress declared in 1790 that "the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

www.michiganlawreview.org...

You are either a natural born citizen by birth on U.S soil, or by birth to two American born parents, or military serving parents.

In addition to this, there is nothing in the constitution that prohibited ineligible person(s) from running to become president. Once they become the president elect, then this is where their ineligibility comes into play.

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

www.usconstitution.net...

It says nothing about running for the presidency.

Here's another tidbit regarding the eligibility of children born abroad to two U.S parents. The only time their child's future eligibility to become president comes into play is when they choose to continue residing outside the United States for a certain period of time:
www.legalzoom.com...

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
naturalborncitizen.com...

And even if they were citizens at one point, they may have relinquished their citizenship rights when they left the country.

There is no evidence to show that George Romney's parents gave up their American citizenship prior to George's birth. Only speculation exists. Now even if they did so following Romney's birth, they could not do so for George Romney. If you are under 18 years of age, you cannot relinquish your American citizenship, neither can your parents do that for you.

Why bother to have the requirement "natural born" if nobody makes sure the law is followed.

You say there's a fire, but I see no fire or smoke.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


These would be the same Hawaiian officials that once said that they don't have a copy? Then they do. But maybe they don't. I think the most amazing part is it took a number of years to determine which hospital he might have been born at. Which is amazing since there were only two choices. Good thing Obama was not born in Chicago or NYC as there might have been too many to nail that one down this century.

But since you didn't comment on it, was Nixon guilty of Watergate when the only evidence of involvement or knowledge was a few newspaper reporters and some blank tape? Afterall it is kinda the same situation here.

Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

These would be the same Hawaiian officials that once said that they don't have a copy?

Where did they say they didn't have a copy of Obama's? Former director Fukino confirmed that they held Obama's records. Hawaiian officials did say that they no longer issue long form birth certificates upon request.

So I'll assume you believe Hawaiian officials are part of the cover up?

I think the most amazing part is it took a number of years to determine which hospital he might have been born at.

Determined? Kapiolani Medical Center was always the hospital stated by the campaign and Hawaii department of health. There have been some who incorrectly believed it was Queens Medical Center, which is normal, because I would not be able to tell you what hospitals the last 5 presidents were born at.

But since you didn't comment on it, was Nixon guilty of Watergate

I didn't comment on it because it's not relevant at all to the topic at hand. Birthers have a really bad habit of going off topic when arguing on this matter. They do this because when they run out of excuses on explaining away their conspiracy, they use strawman arguments to suppliment it. You want to discuss watergate? Create another thread and I'll meet you there.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


The answers to your questions are easy to find online and also have been posted her over and over on various threads over the years.

I think it is unreasonable to ask people to educate you on this. If you are really interested in the truth, dig in, read books and articles from both sides, and when you have read and heard it all, make your own decision.

What you are asking for is "spoon feeding". You can do some research, yes?

A link for you

In addition, from memory... New Gov in Hawaii made all kinds of promises about how he would find it, and then in radio interviews had to admit he had failed.

The keeper of the vital records there stated that there was a hand written entry in an old log book, but no long form.

The document that was posted on line is a digital image that many suspect to be a forgery, for good reasons. The original paper document has never been seen, the state of Hawaii has dodged the question of its authenticity.

Dig in, go find the truth. The WND guy wrote a pretty good book with everything all in one place, "WHere is the BC" was the title.

www.amazon.com... /dp/1936488299

Read that book and then do some more research. You will find the truth.

reply to post by kawika


Really? Birthers are still relying on Adams? His story has changed numerous times and is full of holes. Not to mention that he originally made his claims on a radio station associated with Stormfront and he has made racially motivated comments in the past.

The Foxbow: Time Adams,, Senior Elections Clerk
Birthers' New Bright Shining Object Dims

As for the governor the reason he failed is because he doesn't have the authority to request someone else's birth certificate. Just because he is governor does not mean the law doesn't apply to him.

Originally posted by kawika
The answers to your questions

If you are going to make an accusation or a claim, it's your responsibility to source the evidence, not the other way around. This is how it works in the real world, ok?

You claim the Hawaiian health department stated Obama was born at Queens Medical center? Prove it.

You claim that Obama released 3 birth certificates? Show the source.

It's not my responsibility to prove your accusations for you. Do you now understand how it works?

You can do some research,

That's rich, considering that you're linking me to World Net Daily, a well known birther website. Research you say? Did you actually bother to read the source you linked?

Former Hawaii elections clerk Tim Adams has now signed an affidavit swearing he was told by his supervisors in Hawaii that no long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate existed for Barack Obama Jr.

www.wnd.com...

Not only is Tim Adams making a baseless claim, but to make it worse, he is basing it further on second hand information. Tim Adams does not work for the the Hawaiian health department, he isn't an authorised Hawaiian official by any stretch, he was just an elections clerk. Tim Adams claimed that he was told by his supervisor that there was no birth certificate on record, to date this supposed supervisor of his has not come forward, he might as well not exist. Further more, Glen Takahashi, the elections administrator, stated that they do not have that kind of access:

Elections administrator Glen Takahashi: "We don't have access to that kind of records"

www.politico.com...

Do research you say? Just how much research have you done?

New Gov in Hawaii made all kinds of promises about how he would find it, and then in radio interviews had to admit he had failed.

This is a lie, a very old one at that. Governor abercrombie also isn't authorised to access those documents, only Hawaiian health officials.

The document that was posted on line is a digital image that many suspect to be a forgery,

Yes, many birthers believe and/or suspect Obama's birth certificates are fraudulent, what else is new?

You gave me Tim Adams? Really? His claims are baseless, why on earth are you using him as a source? Because you personally believe him? You take his words?

I love this, keep em' coming folks.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Hawaii has put out several news releases regaring the COLB. However, they have never released anything as "officiall" which would subject them to penalties of perjury.

Now is the time somebody is going to have to unzip their pants and "stand tall" for inspection.

I am still leaning towards a Birth Certificate by Affidavit from his grandparents which means he didn't have to be in the country to receive it in Hawaii at that time. But, I am also leaning a bit towards there is something else on the COLB that Obama doesn't want anyone else to see. Perhaps it is the paternal side which he is hiding.

The birth certificate the Forgers claim is authentic was put out by the White House so it is not "official" in the sense that anyone swore it was authentic. Until the State of Hawaii puts it out under their letterhead, it will still remain a speculative issue. All the Big O has to do is tell Hawaii to release it. Then it becomes and official document from the State. Situation resolved. But... for some reason, he is not doing that and neither are they. Nobody is subject to perjury yet; not even Nancy Pelosi who prepared the eligibility form which differed from past forms. Romney will give up his BC. I don't know about RP. If not, then he knows something and doesn't want to cause a civil insurrection so he may back Obama's decision. In any case, I feel we are still swirling around inside the porcelein throne and are about to go SWOOSH.

The Forgers are always saying prove it. They know full well the evidence is hidden and beyond any one individual's control for discovery. That is like saying prove you farted. I can't see it but I can tell you it stinks but I can't prove it was you until you drop your shorts. If you refuse to be "transparent" then you are hiding behind the stink and laughing. However, when you drop your laundry off, the truth becomes apparent. We may just have to wait. With luck, Obama can look forward to some more free federal low income housing at Club Fed.

Originally posted by Nite_wing
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Hawaii has put out several news releases regaring the COLB. However, they have never released anything as "officiall"

What do you mean official? Hawaii releasing the birth certificates themselves, not the whitehouse? The Hawaiian health department released both the short form and long form birth certificates to the whitehouse. Numerous statements from the Hawaiian health department confirm this:

Here is a statement from Hawaiian officials regarding Obama's short form birth certificate:

To verify we did indeed have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.
"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said June 13, 2008.

www.politifact.com...

"They're just words," said spokeswoman Janice Okubo. "That (what was posted on the Internet) is considered a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii."

"When you request a birth certificate, the one you get looks exactly like the one posted on his site," she said. "That's the birth certificate."

www.politifact.com...

Here are corrosponding emails between the whitehouse and the Hawaiin department of health requesting the release of the long form birth certificate:
hawaii.gov...

Here is another official statement from current Hawaiian department of health director, Loretta Fuddy, confirming the long form birth certificate that they released to the whitehouse, and confirming it's authenticity:

The Hawai„i State Health Department recently complied with a request by President Barack Obama for certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “long form” birth certificate.

hawaii.gov...

So what exactly was your point in claiming that Hawaii 'never released anything official'? What does this mean?

Are you of the theory that the whitehouse created these birth certificates themselves, released it, and the Hawaiian health department somehow isn't aware to this day that there are two fraudulent birth certificates floating around? Is this your theory? Why don't you elaborate with us more on your view over what's really going down, thanks.

All the Big O has to do is tell Hawaii to release it.

They've already released it. Denying it has been released isn't going to get you anywhere.

Romney will give up his BC.

How do you know this? Are you a psychic? I'm not aware of any of the presidential candidates this year who have thus far released any birth certificate? Not even back in 2008, McCain never officially released his, contrary to birther assumptions that he did. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe you can post the birth certificates of all the other presidential candidates.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Hawaii released a copy to the White House, perhaps.
The White House released a copy on the internet.
Was it the same document released by Hawaii?
Would Hawaii use a Photoshop/Illustrator document or a scanned copy? It is obvious the White House document was computer generated.
Hawaii gave a press release that it had been sent to the White House.
Hawaii has never "officially" declared under penalities of perjury that this was Obama's COLB; only unsworn press releases. Arizona is asking for "official" confirmation which would place someone liable for perjury if it was proved to be a false statement from a government official. Perhaps it will come and perhaps it will not. Obama wants to be on the ballot. The burden is his in this case.

My question to you is why are you using the same language as Outkast? The word "psychic" appears in your posts to discredit those who respond. Are you using the same game book? Are you getting the same directives? Are you simply plagarizing someone else's posts to bolster your own? I know their are trolls here but using the same language is quite a coincidence. I don't really believe in coincidence. So, I believe you are either in collusion with Outkast or reading from the same book. Quite intersting actually. Outkast already to me it was none of my business about the past of the the Leader of the United States. If that is your position, then I guess I will have to ignore you too as a troll.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Nite_wing
Hawaii released a copy to the White House, perhaps.
The White House released a copy on the internet.
Was it the same document released by Hawaii?

Why wouldn't it be? I've already provided you sources demonstrating that Hawaii fully acknowledged both the long form and short for birth certificates that were released. Both Hawaiian directors authorized the release of those documents to the whitehouse, I linked you a source regarding the mail responses between the Hawaiian health department and the whitehouse:

www.politifact.com...

www.politifact.com...

hawaii.gov...

hawaii.gov...

So why would Hawaii acknowledge and verify the authenticity of both Obama's long form and short birth certificates if you are so insistent they aren't from the Hawaiian health department?

Is the Hawaiian health department part of some cover up in your eyes? Or are they totally clueless that there are short form and long form birth certificate out in public under Obama's name? You seem reluctant to clarify what you're really getting at.

Which is it?

Hawaii has never "officially" declared under penalities of perjury that this was Obama's COLB; only unsworn press releases.

They don't have to specifically mention 'penalties and perjury' for it to be official, where on earth did you come on this idea? Simply because they didn't do it your way doesn't mean that they didn't verify both documents.

Arizona is asking for "official" confirmation which would place someone liable for perjury

And again there are already statements from Hawaiian officials verifying the authenticity of both Obama's birth certificates and his birth records, I've already linked them for you, so why are you pushing them aside? And please stop insisting that they should personally verify anything with Bennett, it's pritty clear that this wouldn't end the birther conspiracy and you know it.

Here is another official statement from the Hawaiian health department website, by current director Loretta Fuddy:

"We hope that issuing certified copies of the original certificate of live birth to president Obama will end the numerous enquiries related to his birth in Hawaii"

hawaii.gov...
hawaii.gov...

Is this statement fake as well? Or did Loretta lie in her statement? Was she suppose to specifically say 'prenalities and perjury' in that statement?

My question to you is why are you using the same language as Outkast?

And my question to you is, why are you going off topic making personal remarks about the way I post? Why don't you just stay on topic.

Outkast already to me it was none of my business about the past of the the Leader of the United States.

He's right, it is really none of your business. Obama was never required to release a birth certificate in the first place, but he did so because in the end he was the bigger man, and birthers were whining. Likewise birthers continue to complain, and you will continue to complain and attack and spread misinformation, because when it comes down to it, demanding Obama's records has little to do with the constitution, and you know it.

You just don't get what I am trying to say.
The statements released by Hawaii are nothing more than that. Siimple unsworn statements.
Arizona wants somebody from Hawaii to be on an official hook with a sworn statement, an affidavit if you will, that carries legal authority and sanctions for lying.
As for the White House releasing the same document supposedly sent by Hawaii, you will have to ask Obama about that. I am not "psychic." I do not know if it was the same document and neither does anyone else. By saying it was the same document, you are making assumptions and giving opinion, not facts.

And, I see you think I have no business wanting to know the background of the Leader of the United States. Interesting point of view. To me, then, you are a simple Obama Zombie and troll. You and I have nothing further to discuss. Flame away.

Originally posted by Nite_wing
You just don't get what I am trying to say.
The statements released by Hawaii are nothing more than that. Siimple unsworn statements.

No I get what you're saying rather clearly, you are just trying very hard to limit the conpiracy theory aspect of your position. Essentially Hawaiian health officials have made numerous statements confirming Obama's birth on U.S soil and the authenticity of his birth certificate, but you don't believe them or their statements, you don't trust their statements. So now what? You don't trust them on this matter yet you want them to confirm Obama's birth your way, and then what? You expect me to believe that you'll stop birthing after that?

Arizona wants somebody from Hawaii to be on an official hook with a sworn statement

Hawaii has already released statements confirming Obama's birth and the authenticity of his birth certificates. If birthers, like yourself, refuse to believe those statements, then clearly you've clearly made up your mind on this issue.

Just like birthers demanded, Obama released both birth certificates, and now they have a new list of demands. They aren't interested in verification, you aren't interested in verification, all you're interested in is bringing punlicity to your conspiracy theory.

I do not know if it was the same document.

Hold on, it's not a matter of whether you do not know, you just don't believe it. You seem to have this idea that the whitehouse pulled these birth certificates out of thin air, and Hawaiian officials are just 'going with it'. You refuse to believe the numerous statements from Hawaiian officials, so now what? Clearly you think there is some cover up going on, so why are you making more demands when you've made up your mind already?

Originally posted by daddio
Really, that is all that you have

Funny how you avoided the question - so just why did you get your records sealed? You must really be hiding a dark secret...