Is love Iogical ?

reply to post by Wonders

Originally posted by Wonders
Response to 1st paragraph.I do believe that those who know Jesus know God also, but hearing the Word is different from understanding it, and understanding the Word and adhering to the Word are two different things, it does me no good to hear Jesus if I don't practice what Jesus taught.

Yes, this is very true…Jesus makes the distinction many times in bible, about those who only listen, and those who hear…and by those who hear, he means those who understand what he is saying…

Originally posted by Wonders
I know that God knows about me just as I can know about him, but two can't walk together unless they agree.

Seems like the next logical step, would be to just agree lol

Originally posted by Wonders
A sparrow can't fall to the groud without God knowing about it, and we are more valuable than sparrows.
Let me put it to you this way, I can know about Barak Obama, but to personally know him is a different matter entirely wouldn't you say?

Yes, I see what you’re saying it takes time to get to know someone.

Originally posted by Wonders
That was the time I came to terms with my own death, you just have to let go when you know that death is imminent, it's the only logical thing to do. It's just the same with being alive, I'm alive..so, I'll just have to accept that fact, come to terms with it, and keep moving forward no matter how unmotivated or unappreciated I feel.

Anyway, I’m glad your feeling a bit better…just going on your above post, from your thread, ”This is for you”.

And don’t be in too much of hurry, or put to much pressure on yourself, to learn everything about God’s word. When you just let God guide you gently, without trying to force anything, you will be surprised how many truths God will reveal to you, just let the Holy Spirit guide you, and look for the signs.


Peace be with you…


- JC

Apologies Randy, I accidentally posted in the wrong thread. Doh!

Originally posted by randyvs


Wait what ? You said there isn't an accurate definition of what love is ? My fellow member, I have a definition of what love is.

Love
To care about the health, well being of body and mind. And life, both physical and spiritual, of someone else more than your own.

It is to care for someone else more than you care for yourself ? Simply put, someone you would die for.

Do you know anyone like that ?

Jesus does.

Yes. Nature seems replete with such examples.

Crocodiles will defend their young against any threat and will certainly lay down their lives for them if necessary. Are crocodiles also caring, loving beings, like Jesus?

Silverback Gorillas will think nothing of laying down their lives to defend their group. Are they like Jesus?

I noticed one youtube clip where a water buffalo saved another one who was under attack by a pride lions. Certainly risking his life and with some likelihood of becoming a meal himself. Are some water buffalo loving like Jesus? Will this buffalo now go to heaven?

Chimps can forge lifelong friendships and even display similar complicated social structures and emotions to humans. They even wage war like humans. They have been known to aid their friends regardless of dangers faced. Are they loving like Jesus? Can we expect to find the more benevolent type of Chimps in heaven (the few of us who make the grade, that is)?


God of popular belief is extremely unlikely to exist, so seems irellevant to love. Though IMO love can also be something separate and distinct from the instincts of nature. If there is a divine aspect/possibility for us, this may well be it. Similar to intuition (which I also think happens), it seems to bypass logic as if it were a different mental process entirely. I doubt it needs Gods or books. Would be a far more interesting thread regarding the human condition, without the simplistic Jesus cultural myths.

Originally posted by randyvsWhen the prospect of a life without a certain person is so horrible. That it becomes a natural reaction, absent of all thought, requiring no decision at all, you would lay down all of your own. To save all or any of theirs.

This may be quite a noble action. Yet, at it's basis, wouldn't it be the result of putting our own feelings first, selfishness. Based (at least in part) on a self centered fear simply because we couldn't bear living with the loss, rather than from selflessness, which love is claimed to require as a basis, underneath it all? Those who claim to know, often say that love and fear, are like oil and water?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Well thanks for the bump then Jean.



All good !

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

I noticed one youtube clip where a water buffalo saved another one who was under attack by a pride lions. Certainly risking his life and with some likelihood of becoming a meal himself. Are some water buffalo loving like Jesus? Will this buffalo now go to heaven?

Sometimes Cog you just get a lil out there.

But that's where the truth is right ?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

 

I noticed one youtube clip where a water buffalo saved another one who was under attack by a pride lions. Certainly risking his life and with some likelihood of becoming a meal himself. Are some water buffalo loving like Jesus? Will this buffalo now go to heaven?

Sometimes Cog you just get a lil out there.

But that's where the truth is right ?

I have nothing against water buffalo. I want heaven to be available to them also. What can I say, I like a little equality in my religion.

Originally posted by randyvs

But that's where the truth is right ?

I'll be happy to let you know when and if I find it, if you like. As long as you're not in a hurry.

Originally posted by Wonders
I am not a Christian because I am a sinner, I do not know God but I want to but it's very much likely that I won't be able because Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven but will not be able. I don't want to be a sinner and I believe that Jesus came to set us free from our sins by giving us the truth and we, by knowing the truth can practice what Jesus teaches.

This is taken out of context, love:

"21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

The context is far greater than this, but at least this is the full "verse". Yes, there's a lot of people Christ will have to turn his back on, but it's not merely being Right or Wrong. It's about doing God's ultimate will.

So, what of God's will was being thwarted to cause Christ to say this? Well, right before this is:

"15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Followed by a description of how fruit grows on trees and not thistles, and how we compare to a fruit tree, as an example.

What you are quoting is the conclusion of what's going to happen to people who are out to hurt God's people.As long as you are not setting out to deceive the world as a whole, this comment about "some who call upon God will not be in Heaven" has NOTHING to do with you.

Frankly, there's whole swathes of scripture devoted to Mercy and Grace. Neither would be needed if we were to remain sinless of our own accord. So yes, a Christian going to heaven is GOING to sin and still go. Read the whole of Romans for how this works, specifically.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

I'll be happy to let you know when and if I find it, if you like. As long as you're not in a hurry.

No hurry at all my friend !

As long as you have a full report disclosing all details of Buffalo Heaven in my PM by 9:00 am monday morning I can assure you, your status at ATS will not come under review.

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Originally posted by Wonders
I am not a Christian because I am a sinner, I do not know God but I want to but it's very much likely that I won't be able because Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven but will not be able. I don't want to be a sinner and I believe that Jesus came to set us free from our sins by giving us the truth and we, by knowing the truth can practice what Jesus teaches.

This is taken out of context, love:

"21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "

The context is far greater than this, but at least this is the full "verse". Yes, there's a lot of people Christ will have to turn his back on, but it's not merely being Right or Wrong. It's about doing God's ultimate will.

So, what of God's will was being thwarted to cause Christ to say this? Well, right before this is:

"15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Followed by a description of how fruit grows on trees and not thistles, and how we compare to a fruit tree, as an example.

What you are quoting is the conclusion of what's going to happen to people who are out to hurt God's people.As long as you are not setting out to deceive the world as a whole, this comment about "some who call upon God will not be in Heaven" has NOTHING to do with you.

Frankly, there's whole swathes of scripture devoted to Mercy and Grace. Neither would be needed if we were to remain sinless of our own accord. So yes, a Christian going to heaven is GOING to sin and still go. Read the whole of Romans for how this works, specifically.

I don't think we are talking about the same bit of scripture when I said, "Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven but will not be able.", I wasn't refering to the verse you shared but this one:
Luke 13:24 Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
You said that "As long as you are not setting out to decieve the world as a whole,"....I think that the Pharisees and Saduccees believed that they were righteous, I don't think that they knew they were decieving others but Jesus said to beware of their teaching.
Still, in light of what Jesus spoke, I will not want to consider myself a Christian if "a Christian going to heaven is GOING to sin and still go."

reply to post by Wonders

Let this be a lesson to all who understand what is written.
Psalm 4:4 In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Selah

James 1:20 for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

Proverbs 16:12 Kings detest wrongdoing, for a throne is established through righteousness.

Proverbs 16:13 Kings take pleasure in honest lips; they value a man who speaks the truth.

Proverbs 22:11 He who loves a pure heart and whose speech is gracious will have the king for his friend.

Proverbs 16:14 A king's wrath is a messenger of death, but a wise man will appease it.

John 18:37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Matthew 12:6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him--the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--

Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

Deuteronomy 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

Matthew 3:10 Even now the ax of God's judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Luke 13:7-9 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it take up space in the garden?' "The gardener answered, 'Sir, give it one more chance. Leave it another year, and I'll give it special attention and plenty of fertilizer. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'"

Luke 14:35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

1 John 2:29 Since we know that Christ is righteous, we also know that all who do what is right are God's children.

Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Lamentations 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

James 5:11 As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

Those who break God's law sin, accept trouble from God, love your enemies, forgive them, do not lie. Do not say that those who are going to heaven are GOING to sin and still go. Love.

reply to post by Wonders


John the baptist said, " behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the whole world ".

If John the Baptist knew Christ was a sacrificial lamb. I'm sure he was also right about the sins of the whole world.

You don't have enough faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by Wonders

 

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this be a lesson to all who understand what is written.
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A measure of what a primal goddess Leto was can be recognized in her father and mother. Her Titan father is called "Coeus," and his obscure name[13] links him to the sphere of heaven from pole to pole.[14] Leto's mother "Phoebe" is precisely the "bright, purifying" epithet of the full moon.[15]

en.wikipedia.org...

Let, a name binding construct in computer programming languages

en.wikipedia.org...

For bound variables in mathematics, see Free variables and bound variables.

In programming languages, name binding is the association of objects (data and/or code) with identifiers.[1] An identifier bound to an object is said to reference that object. Machine languages have no built-in notion of identifiers, but name-object bindings as a service and notation[disambiguation needed ] for the programmer is implemented by programming languages. Binding is intimately connected with scoping, as scope determines which names bind to which objects - at which locations in the program code (lexically) and in which one of the possible execution paths (temporally).

Use of an identifier id in a context that establishes a binding for id is called a binding (or defining) occurrence. In all other occurrences (e.g., in expressions, assignments, and subprogram calls), an identifier stands for what it is bound to; such occurrences are called applied occurrences.
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Wonders

 

John the baptist said, " behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the whole world ".

If John the Baptist knew Christ was a sacrificial lamb. I'm sure he was also right about the sins of the whole world.

You don't have enough faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

edit on 21-5-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Leviticus 17:11 for the life of the body is in its blood. I have given you the blood on the altar to purify you, making you right with the LORD. It is the blood, given in exchange for a life, that makes purification possible.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

John the baptist said:
Luke 3:8 Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones.

I will say it again, I am a sinner, therefore there is no denying your last statement. One can not be a righteous sinner, you are either righteous or you are a sinner, you can not be both. Jesus came to make us righteous by teaching us the truth, and we by knowing the truth can work out our own salvation. We will be judged by our deeds, deeds of righteousness, or deeds of sin.

Placing blame for your unrighteousness on your own flesh does not justify your unrighteousness. Jesus was so serious about not sinning that He advised people to chop their hand off if it causes them to sin, to gouge their eye out if it causes them to sin. So there is no exuse to sin since we are capable of getting rid of that which leads us to sin.

Matthew 3:14-15 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

"It is fitting for US to fullfill ALL righteousness."

Originally posted by Wonders

All very nice, but what do you personally think of the question put forward in the op? From your own life experience, interaction with people, personal reflection, from delving within etc. Do you have any observations, aside from scripture based ones?

reply to post by Wonders


Ah, that one. Sorry, just so used to people using the other one. That one continues with the consequences of people deciding to enter too late.

But it may still be the same story, just from a different context. Each of the 4 Gospels don't have all the same details because of who the book was written to. Some things are not pertinent to all groups.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

All very nice, but what do you personally think of the question put forward in the op? From your own life experience, interaction with people, personal reflection, from delving within etc. Do you have any observations, aside from scripture based ones?

Thank you Cog.

Nii

That video was chilling. Scared the crap out of me !
No joke by the time it finish I was whiteknuckling the arms of my chair.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by Wonders

All very nice, but what do you personally think of the question put forward in the op? From your own life experience, interaction with people, personal reflection, from delving within etc. Do you have any observations, aside from scripture based ones?

Thank you for asking. I don't believe that you can disconnect the Word with life.
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
By the prompting of the Holy Spirt, I have had prayers answered, I have spoken in tongues, I have commanded a thing to move and it did, I have felt God's love and peace, I have heard the voice of God, my observations are very much connected to scripture based ones.
The only reason I am alive today is because God's Word is True.
My interaction with people confirms my belief that God is real.
I shall admit, my beliefs aren't like the those of many people, but that is nothing new.

reply to post by randyvs


Love is highly illogical. It defies logic, and it conquers logic.

Love is God, and God is all powerful. God defies logic, just as love defies logic.

reply to post by randyvs



Is love logical? To me it depends on the organism and its environment and other factors that influence how it survives. If love exists, in however fashion you determine to define it, it is logical. The mind of creation is perfect no matter which direction it takes, even though it seems far from it. That is because it isn't always promotional to its individual manifestations, it ebbs and flows, creates and destroys- only to create again and anew. Love is a perception, not a fixed definition. Love may mean the way organisms promote one another in an effort to survive, or to survive with a certain benefit that enhances what we determine to feel good. In the end we choose, always. You can choose to make love un-useful. There are many ways that people say love is to be this, and in the end, it is quite destructive. We can love our way into death, yes. We can love our way into bliss. Love to many means the unconditional rule that life 'is'. What is more important is that you make sense of life in a way in which you determine, with all of its nuances - the most awesome aspects and the most terrifying, a spectacle of grandeur to behold. And most of it will never make sense. (to you)