Is love Iogical ?

Originally posted by randyvs
Take the man who logically would sacrifice himself for the many. A man who would jump on the hand grenade to save his friends ?
Is it really a logical thing to do seeing that he upon his death will no longer have his friends ? Yet out of love there are many that would do something so illogical. So if love is not logical ? Does that mean when we say," God is love"
we are saying God is not logical ? If God is not logical ? What does that say for logic ?
What about the many that would sacrifice themselves for the good of one ?
Is love logical ? If not does that make God illogical? Should human beings toss logic altogether ?

Jesus said: There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. -John 15:13

John (a diciple of Jesus', the same guy who said, "God is love") said: This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 1 John 3:16

From these two verses that I've shown thus far, we can believe that the use of the words 'friends' and 'brothers' can be used interchangeably.
We can also believe that Jesus laid down his life for his friends, those whom he considers His brothers. So how does Jesus define friends and brothers?

You are my friends if you do what I command. -John 15:14

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. -John 15:15

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. -Matthew 12:50

From these three verses we can understand that those who Jesus laid down his life are those who do what Jesus commands. "OUR Father who art in heaven, blessed is your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...Jesus honored His Father, He did what His Father wanted Him to do.
Jesus could not have known what His Father wanted Him to do unless His Father made known to him everything He learned from His Father. We can not know what God wants of us unless we take heed to Jesus' teachings, because He has made known to us everything He has learned from His Father.
Jesus never claimed to be the sole heir. Jesus never kept any knowledge for Himself but told His disciples everything He Himself knew. I hope that each of us knows that if we love someone, we do not lie to them, nor would we keep them in ignorance of the truth. That is the reason that He was born, to learn, to put what He learned into practice, and to teach that which He learned so that others may put what they learn into practice.

Pilate said, "So you are a king?" Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true." -John 18:37

But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. -John 14:26

Jesus was born into the world, learned, did, taught and departed according to God's will, that we may learn to live and depart from this earth according to God's will. Jesus does not leave us ignorant of what God's will is, the purpose of the Holy Spirit is sent to remind us of everything Jesus has spoken, and Jesus spoke everything he was taught and left nothing to the imagination.
Now, that leads us to the question, If many people will not be able to enter heaven, does that mean that God does not love them, that God won't teach them? Matthew 13:9 He who has ears, let him hear."

Jesus made it clear that there are people who are granted to know and people who are not.
Matthew 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Now why do you suppose this is? We look to the previous verse to see:
Matthew 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

I will then ask you this, you logical minds, would you trust someone if they told you they loved you if you don't even know them?
And he will reply, 'I tell you, I don't know you or where you come from. Depart from me, all you who do evil.' -Luke 13:27

I believe that God is the most logical being in existence. It takes two to tango.

I'll leave logic to the robots, computers and sociopaths...

I love the chaos of emotion... You will not find beauty in cold logic.

Logic? one's and zero's, soulless and cold absolutes that completely miss the intricacy of what lies between them.

Peace


Oh... btw... great thread as always Randyvs

Originally posted by Muckster
I'll leave logic to the robots, computers and sociopaths...

I love the chaos of emotion... You will not find beauty in cold logic.

Logic? one's and zero's, soulless and cold absolutes that completely miss the intricacy of what lies between them.

Peace

Interesting that you say that you walk by faith and not by sight.
In order to have faith you must have sight no?

Are these sayings familiar to you?
If the blind lead the blind both fall into a ditch.
Without vision the people perish.
Man looks at the outward appearance but the Lord looks at the heart.
If they are not familiar to you then they should be, they are from the bible.

Have you any knowledge of psychology?
Is not your logic just as much a part of you as your emotions?
Do you not know that the brain is comparable to a computer?
If there's anything anyone might want to ask, please do so and I will do my best to answer.

reply to post by Wonders

Interesting that you say that you walk by faith and not by sight.
In order to have faith you must have sight no?

So a blind person cannot have faith?? A blind man cannot be pious??


Your eyes are easily deceived... You only have to watch TV to know this...

Also, unless you have seen the movie "The book of Eli" you will be reading the quote out of context.

Are these sayings familiar to you?
If the blind lead the blind both fall into a ditch.

Yes... and it’s a metaphor for those who do not know god leading those who do not know God.

Without vision the people perish.
Man looks at the outward appearance but the Lord looks at the heart.
If they are not familiar to you then they should be, they are from the bible.

Hmm... err... yes, life would be difficult without vision

Yes God looks at the heart

Yes i know they are from the Bible

Have you any knowledge of psychology?
Is not your logic just as much a part of you as your emotions?
Do you not know that the brain is comparable to a computer?
If there's anything anyone might want to ask, please do so and I will do my best to answer.

Psychology?? Only that its normally practiced by people who are normally very annoying and think they know what others are thinking, and why they are thinking it, when 9 times out of ten they don’t.

Yes, logic is part of me... but it doesn’t rule me... and, on its own, it is cold.

Yes, i know that some people compare the Brain to a computer (even if they are very different)

I only have the following to ask you... Are you deliberately trying to sound condescending? Because that how you come across, with the many simple questions.

Also, with a subject such as this there is no real right and wrong... all people can say is what’s in their heart at the moment of asking... unless, of course, they rely totally on logic and will then give you the exact same answer every time. Which kind of reinforces my initial post.

Peace

Love is logical and Intuitive and many things to many people
The example cited of one who would sacrifice his/her life for the benefit of Humanity as a whole is noble.
Love is what we make of it
Yet how would the sacrifice of one's life benefit others - There are many examples of those who stood and spoke out for truth - Someone sure needs to.
Love is what you understand it to be and the word love is not necessary to describe itself

Remember Spock…probably the most logical guy in TV history…





Now I guess Spock, would argue that he did what he did, to save the ship and his friends, because it was logical, and that the “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” etc. But what he did, can also be seen from another perspective, in that he did it, out of love for his friends.


Kind of reminds me of these verses….

John 15:13

13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

John 10:11

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 10:17

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life —only to take it up again.

- JC

Logic is the application of reason.

Why isn't love logical?

I mean, when I look at a test, I see items in terms of more or less correct. The most correct is deemed to be a "logical" choice because the most frames of reference converge.

When we see the root of love, and what it's meant for in the context of our species progression, it's most logical. Nature has given way to our application of counterbalances in equilibrium with each other.

I think love only seems irrational, or illogical if we aren't paying close enough attention.

Now, individual acts of love, I can't answer so generally. Crazy things happening in the name of love!

Originally posted by Muckster

I only have the following to ask you... Are you deliberately trying to sound condescending? Because that how you come across, with the many simple questions.

Also, with a subject such as this there is no real right and wrong... all people can say is what’s in their heart at the moment of asking... unless, of course, they rely totally on logic and will then give you the exact same answer every time. Which kind of reinforces my initial post.

Peace

I'm sorry if you feel that I've asked you simple questions, my problem is that I happen not to like when people claim to be following God and yet have no problem lying about the little things, Jesus said that he who is faithful with little is faithful with much and that he who isn't faithful with the little he has, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.
I'm sorry, but I firmly disagree, there is a "real right and wrong", it's when people start to think that they've learned everything they need to know that they stop searching for the truth when the little "innocent misunderstandings" happen. The OP said God, four times, this subject very much includes God. People will either lie about him or about themselves to save face, but unless YOU see that this is about God and you personally, your integrity could be lacking.

reply to post by Wonders

I'm sorry if you feel that I've asked you simple questions, my problem is that I happen not to like when people claim to be following God and yet have no problem lying about the little things, Jesus said that he who is faithful with little is faithful with much and that he who isn't faithful with the little he has, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.
I'm sorry, but I firmly disagree, there is a "real right and wrong", it's when people start to think that they've learned everything they need to know that they stop searching for the truth when the little "innocent misunderstandings" happen. The OP said God, four times, this subject very much includes God. People will either lie about him or about themselves to save face, but unless YOU see that this is about God and you personally, your integrity could be lacking.

LOL - what i have lied about?

You know nothing about me, my background, how deep my faith is... yet you choose to judge me on a post that you didn’t even understand in the first place.

Judge not, that ye be not judged

I am a Christian... and I have many many faults... I sin every day, make mistakes, say things i shouldn’t... No person is perfect but those that think they are, are the probably the furthest from God.

I see it all the time in many Christians... claiming to be christlike while looking down their noses at the people who can’t recite the bible from begging to end... cannot have a conversation without throwing some scripter in, just to prove how pious they are. Not realising that all they are doing is demonstrating their own pride and arrogance. It’s sad really.

Scribes and pharisees my friend... scribes and pharisees!

reply to post by Muckster


Always good to hear from you Muckster. I must say it's been awhile.

You know nothing about me, my background, how deep my faith is... yet you choose to judge me on a post that you didn’t even understand in the first place
I am a Christian... and I have many many faults...

Me to Muck Save me some of that ? I have so many cracks and warps ? If I were in any shape at all ? I'd be an oblong ancient egyptian pyramid. Tell you the truth, I can't believe anyone dares to love me. People do.

Love is giving someone the power
to destroy you,
but trusting them
not to..

It is only love that gives a vision of beauty. It makes facts.. Not only facts but mysteries. In the hands of love everything becomes a mystery, in the hands of logic everything becomes a naked fact; and if the whole world is full of facts and there is no beauty, man cannot live significantly. Life becomes meaningless. Life has meaning only if the vision of beauty remains in your heart.

God can't be perfect and be illogical cause being illogical is a mistake, and God being perfect wouldn't make mistakes...
peace,sugarcookie1

Originally posted by Muckster
reply to post by Wonders

 

I'm sorry if you feel that I've asked you simple questions, my problem is that I happen not to like when people claim to be following God and yet have no problem lying about the little things, Jesus said that he who is faithful with little is faithful with much and that he who isn't faithful with the little he has, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.
I'm sorry, but I firmly disagree, there is a "real right and wrong", it's when people start to think that they've learned everything they need to know that they stop searching for the truth when the little "innocent misunderstandings" happen. The OP said God, four times, this subject very much includes God. People will either lie about him or about themselves to save face, but unless YOU see that this is about God and you personally, your integrity could be lacking.

LOL - what i have lied about?

You know nothing about me, my background, how deep my faith is... yet you choose to judge me on a post that you didn’t even understand in the first place.

Judge not, that ye be not judged

I am a Christian... and I have many many faults... I sin every day, make mistakes, say things i shouldn’t... No person is perfect but those that think they are, are the probably the furthest from God.

I see it all the time in many Christians... claiming to be christlike while looking down their noses at the people who can’t recite the bible from begging to end... cannot have a conversation without throwing some scripter in, just to prove how pious they are. Not realising that all they are doing is demonstrating their own pride and arrogance. It’s sad really.

Scribes and pharisees my friend... scribes and pharisees!

Well, I don't consider myself a Christian, nor do I side with any religion. I do believe God lives and sees the heart.

1 John 3:4-10

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Bible

reply to post by randyvs


Love is the logical response to fear. Fear is illogical, unless you view yourself as being nothing more than an organic body and all that you are, all that you do is purely a biological function, and even then, love remains logical, it is just that under that paradigm, fear is also logical. This brings us to a contradiction. In my experience of the world, and my limited understanding of the universe, there are no contradictions, and when we find a contradiction all we need to do is reexamine the premise.

The premise that brought this contradiction was the idea that all who we are, all that we do is purely biological. Since that premise brought us a contradiction, perhaps there is something wrong with that premise. If we are more than just our biology, however, then this suggests a duality to us. That duality explains our language in many ways, so when we look inward and use this language to describe a specific action, all understand that we do not mean that we are turning our eyeballs inward to gaze upon our guts, we all understand that we are being retrospective, or if not retrospective, being futurespective. This looking inward is something other than biology and the "we" now becomes something that inhabits a body, but is not specifically that body.

If dualism is on to some sort of truth, then we have to contend with this "we", or "I" that becomes a separate substance than this physical stuff we call our body. What is this other substance? Under a physical paradigm we cannot seem to devise any tool to effectively measure what this substance might be, and so for those of us who require measurement as a barometer of truth, this dualism must be false. For those of us who do not require measurement as an indicator of truth, we look for other ways in determining what this substance might be, and in doing so, many of us, and quite logically so, deduce that "we" must have preexisted that substance "we" call flesh, in order to inhabit that flesh. Less logically, some of us then presume that perhaps "we" are immortal and exist always, only sometimes inhabiting physical states.

In a physical state, there seems to be a biological imperative to survive, but if "we" are immortal than this biological imperative becomes almost a contradiction. I say almost because if "we" chose to inhabit these physical bodies, we must have had a good reason for doing so, and that reason most likely was to live, and dying before we've even had a chance to live seems pretty pointless, so we function under an imperative to survive, even though if we are immortal there is nothing to survive.

What does all of this have to do with the logic of love? Love is the logical response to fear. It is our biology that fears, it is our true state that loves.

In terms of "sacrifice", Spock, in The Wrath of Khan did not sacrifice himself for the crew of the Enterprise. Spock, being logical, understood that if no one acted to stop the engine from melting down that all of them would die, including Spock. He also understood, being imminently logical, that he was the one best suited to withstand the overwhelming radiation coming from the damaged engine. Rather than sacrifice himself, Spock logically understood he was all ready dead, but his love for the rest of the crew compelled him to do what he could to save them so that they could continue to live.

Originally posted by sugarcookie1
Love is giving someone the power
to destroy you,
but trusting them
not to..

It is only love that gives a vision of beauty. It makes facts.. Not only facts but mysteries. In the hands of love everything becomes a mystery, in the hands of logic everything becomes a naked fact; and if the whole world is full of facts and there is no beauty, man cannot live significantly. Life becomes meaningless. Life has meaning only if the vision of beauty remains in your heart.

God can't be perfect and be illogical cause being illogical is a mistake, and God being perfect wouldn't make mistakes...
peace,sugarcookie1

I think I just fell in love with sugar cookie.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Jean Paul

What can I say to such a mega response. Awesome and thank you.

God I love this place.

reply to post by randyvs


OP asked Is love Iogical ?

I say, no, it cannot ever be logical, else, it would not be love.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I have two answers

First, love is a biological event, a mix of hormones. Pure and simple. It is an emotion designed to help protect and continue our species.

Second, love is an emotion. Emotions and logic are, IMO, opposites. What I might choose to do after a deliberate calculation is logical. How I act in a moment of crisis is emotional.

if both are mere chemical reactions in the brain that have physiological affects, then what is the significance to begin with? What objective point of reference do you base your logic-illogic on?

reply to post by randyvs


Well being a guy who doesn't subscribe to the whole "god" thing, i'll leave that out.
This is a very good question, I can't think of an answer to this.
I guess i would agree it is illogical, mostly because love can make a man do some crazy stuff.
However, a mans eternally burning love for his family is very logical.

It is the definition of the phrase "double-edged sword"

reply to post by randyvs




(Second Line)

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


That scene does seem to get to me. Points Index finger to eye, flicks tear and then points at NaGia.