I refused to disclose my annual income to PAYPAL and they froze my funds !

reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe


The whole contention that Paypal rightfully froze the O.P.'s account over "fraud" steadfastly and seemingly purposely ignores the excellent point wdkirk made, which was that the O.P. sold silver and apparently this against public policy in Australia if that silver was exported out of the country. If not, then that point is moot. Given that Paypal has refused to explain why they froze the account, and it is hard to believe that exporting silver would be one of those super secret spy directives alluded to by another member, it very well may be a contract dispute and have nothing at all to do with the product sold.

To fight corporations you have to act like them. Type out a letter stating that A) they are in possession of your $320 and are refusing to return it. 2) that you are giving them 30 days to transfer your property or explain why they have kept your property. 3) state if they do not contact within 30 days you will charge them holding fee of 10% of the fee per day for every day over 30 days until the total amount is payed. 4) advise also that if they do not contact within the 30 day time limit you will forced to begin legal proceedings which will not only involve a suit for the $320 but for damages and court costs.

once typed up email this to every paypal department email address you can find (including sales, merchant etc), also search linkedin for paypal executives / managers and CC them in it as well. Also post this letter to the company address listed for country and make sure you track it so you have legal confirmation it was delivered and they can see it was tracked.

you both know you will not go to court over $320 however, you now have a solid starting foot for legal proceedings that paypal cannot side step around or wave away. As well by contacting a proper manager via the cc'd email you WILL get action instead of contacting a outsourced call center that has minimal accountability.

Lastly if you're feeling really fired up get on twitter, make sure their account responds to people and then rip into them asking why they have stolen your money.


i guarantee you will get a proper response if you do this.

I have had my own run ins with Pay Pal, Op has really touched a nerve:

- I had purchased a hotel room using payal and then cancelled it. I had electronic proof of the cancellation and expected the money to come into the account the next day - it did not not the next day not day after that nor week after that. I went to their Pay Pal web site to complain.

- Their web system had aged HELP text that was useless
- Annoyingly I had to fill out a form on their web page which meant I could not include my evidence as an attachment. So I waited and waited for a reply...

In the end they e-mailed me back so I could send the attachment and they "awarded in my favour." (how very big of them) - no they were in the wrong. They never explained why.

I got so cheesed off, I asked them to send me all the personal data that they have on me. They never got back to me on this (I believe that they broke the law in the UK by not providing this - I wish I could take them to court but life is too short).

Absolute amateurs and rob dogs - but that is a very personal opinion and I hold no grudges

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Oh yes, they most certainly have. A contract requires a meeting of the minds:

The potential Auctioneer clicking the check box that says "I have read and consent to PayPal's Terms of Service" satisfies this requirement.

A contract requires an offer and acceptance:

Paypal got their consideration, the O.P. did not.

PayPal offered to post the Auctioner's items on a very popular site, which almost guarantees a sale at a reasonable price in exchange for a nominal fee. They simplify the payment process while simultaneously removing a large portion of the risk involved in an online transaction. Both parties agreed to the contract when PayPal offered him this service and he accepted, again by clicking the box that says "I have read and consent to PayPal's Terms of Service" this requirement is satisfied. .

A contract requires mutual consideration

The buyer (The OP) received a popular platform with which to post and sell items for profit. The seller (eBay) received fees to list the option, and additional fees to transfer payment from the Auctioneer to the Auction Winner.

A contract requires performance or delivery:
***

The O.P. amended the initial contract and made a counter offer. The account was activated. Paypal failed to perform its end of that contract. This is a breach of contract.

This is a hilarious stretch. No, the OP accepted PayPals terms of use, again by clicking the box that says "I have read and consent to PayPal's Terms of Service" satisfies this requirement.

Specifically, he agreed to this portion of the Terms of Service:

You will not use the Business Service, the website or any of the services offered therein for any unlawful, fraudulent or improper activity. If PayPal or Wells Fargo has reason to believe that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, unlawful, or improper activity, including without limitation any violation of any terms and conditions relating to the Premier/Business Service, the website or any related services, your access to the Service may be suspended or terminated. You will cooperate fully with PayPal or Wells Fargo to investigate any suspected unlawful, fraudulent or improper activity.

Good faith also comes into play:
***
The O.P. acted in good faith, Paypal did not.

The OP violated Good Faith when he gave false information after accepting the Terms of Service.



If you're trying to make this a legal issue, you don't have a leg to stand on. I assure you eBay didn't become the giant it is by having a legal policy that could be destroyed with five minutes of research by an amateur virtual attorney.

Fight the power, OP! Let us know how that goes for you! I have no doubt you'll eventually get your money, and yes you deserve it.. But you brought this upon yourself by being abrasive and dishonest with a company you were trying to do business with. Maybe if you take a friendlier stance you'll get your $302 sooner.

I'm not sure why someone wants to go to such lengths to argue this FACT, but again seven years of experience with eBay and the only problems I have had have been with buyers, and in every single case eBay/PayPal has done more than I ever expected to rectify the situation.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


He may very likely never get a straight answer about why his account was frozen. In my experience I had a verified checking account registered with paypal for quite a few years. I had made many purchases from Ebay on that account and always paid as soon as the auctions closed. Out of nowhere paypal holds a payment sent to a seller for a .99 cent pandora bead leaving me trying to explain to the seller that I was trying to rectify the situation. It took me over a week to get it straightened out. They asked for anything from a utility bill, to me waiting for a letter to arrive through snail mail with a code on it that I could call in when I received it.

They never came out and gave me a specific reason for freezing my account. I had only one account that had been verified, always paid promptly, never changed account settings, etc. I promptly closed the account because there was a lack of any excuse on Paypal's part.

Hopefully the OP can find the exact reason and rectify it. You have given him good advice along with other's here.

Paypal is NOT a bank and, as such, is not bound by any regulations regarding banking transactions. In order to utilize Paypal's "service" you had to agree to the terms of the user agreement. If you actually read the agreement you will see that it defines plenty of "rights" for Paypal while at the same time limiting your "rights" with respect Paypal.

I cancelled my paypal account many years ago when I started to read about complaints from users.

Money orders or bank checks for ebay transactions only, or no deal. If you state the terms in the item listing then that's the deal.

Hope it eventually works out for you.

-SC

Originally posted by SkullCreek
Paypal is NOT a bank and, as such, is not bound by any regulations regarding banking transactions. In order to utilize Paypal's "service" you had to agree to the terms of the user agreement. If you actually read the agreement you will see that it defines plenty of "rights" for Paypal while at the same time limiting your "rights" with respect Paypal.

I cancelled my paypal account many years ago when I started to read about complaints from users.

Money orders or bank checks for ebay transactions only, or no deal. If you state the terms in the item listing then that's the deal.

Hope it eventually works out for you.

-SC

PayPal is indeed subject to the laws and regulations of a bank, when you are a seller.

By receiving payments through the Service, you appoint PayPal as your agent to cause the funds to be deposited on your behalf in the Pooled Accounts until you further instruct PayPal with respect to the transmission of your funds. Through the PayPal website, you may provide instructions to withdraw the funds, enroll in an automatic sweep of the funds into the PayPal Money Market Fund or transfer the funds to a third party, in each case subject to the terms and restrictions of this Agreement. If you receive a notice that a payment has been sent to you through PayPal but you have not registered for the Service, PayPal will not become your agent and you will have no claim to those funds unless and until you register for the Service and indicate your acceptance of the payment. If you register for a Premier or Business account and intend to accept credit card payments, you will be receiving services provided by Wells Fargo Bank, N.A. and Wells Fargo Merchant Services, LLC (collectively "Wells Fargo"), and the terms of Article VIII (Additional User Agreement for Premier and Business Accounts) will govern your rights, obligations and liabilities with respect to such credit card transactions.

reply to post by dawnprince


Open a Corporation - and write the bi - laws in which you will subject yourself to. and Viola~! that is law. you can even write laws that you know are illegal under other laws. I think someone figured this out -- a few years back.

reply to post by woogleuk

As someone has previously mentioned, Paypal is now owned by Ebay, yet they still charge twice for their services.

I'm not really a big fan of paypal.....but that point isn't really relevant, I have a friend who owns a manufacturing company and a haulage company, so if someone buys his product, by your reckoning, he should ship it for free

reply to post by tauristercus


Oh try closing a PayPal account. Getting an audience with the head of the Greys is easier.

I created an account about 6-7 years ago for my wife selling on ebay. They froze my account and I still can't get back in. I have given up on the $30ish they still have. Paypal can go (insert term I probably could get banned for here).

All I can say is I will never use them again. I'd rather take the risk of a personal check. I am in the US btw.

reply to post by TinkerHaus


Not true. The Feds have ruled that PayPal is NOT a bank and NOT subject to banking regs:

news.cnet.com...

And in most Paypal stories this would be the end of it. The OP would never, ever see his money again and Paypal would continue doing whatever it is they do with money they seize (probably illegally). In a fair world, they would return the money to the purchaser after making them return the item that was sold.

In the US, quite a few people have had decent results by writing to the State banking commission for whatever state they live in. While it's true the Feds do not define Paypal as a bank, they are required to get approval from every state banking commission and comply with their policies in order to operate in that state. This seems to be the one thing they are actually afraid of and a lot of people who had exhausted every other avenue were able to get their money back this way.

Based on the replies from Paypal it looks like they think you've had a prior account under your own name or another. This is becoming more and more common also as criminals who use Ebay and Paypal to defraud people are starting to use stolen identities to set up accounts.

I run a small web hosting business on the side and we've seen a huge uptake in people from E Europe signing up for US based servers then using those to set up Ebay and Paypal accounts. They will create a fake sale to establish good feedback and then sell one expensive item, collect the money via paypal and then vanish into the night. While it seems like a lot of work to go through for a few hundred dollars or so, if you have an army of people doing this 24 hours per day it probably adds up.

So, once again thanks to certain Countries and the wild west of Internet commerce, places like Ebay and Paypal end up creating draconian polices to try and stay in business. The problem is they are not seeing a lot of growth with new users - this because there are so many fraud schemes out there mostly new users are victimized. People with long histories of using Ebay / Paypal know not to buy from anyone with 0 or very few transactions and some of us even have ways to try and verify the person is actually where they say they are (hacking good accounts and using them is the other way people steal via Ebay / Paypal). Unfortunately the problem will just continue to get worse before it gets any better (if it gets any better). You're going to see more and more efforts by Paypal to verify identity as time goes on - otherwise people will stop using them. Something about being ripped off on Ebay via Paypal kind of sours the willingness to try it again...

reply to post by tauristercus


I have used PayPal for years and never have had a problem. I also have never had them "take a cut", of course I generally only use them for payment our instead of payment in. I have also never had to fill out any form other than my bank account or debit card info.

It almost seems like you have been scammed. Have you tried contacting them through a different number or e-mail. I have received many very official looking emails from people claiming to be PayPal who were running fishing scams. It is very hard to tell the real from the phony.I am not saying this is what happened to you but it is certainly suspicious.

Good luck with your problems. I hope it works out for you.

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I admit, I have had nothing but good experiences with paypal, but I have not used them in a few years now. More and more stories like this pop up, makes me less likely to do business with them in the future. Sounds like complete bull# what they are pulling here, I would be pissed too. 300 bucks is a big chunk of change for me.....

reply to post by Argyll


No, because it costs to transport goods, it does not cost Paypal to transfer virtual money between accounts, I am talking commission, not bank transfer fees, not postage and packaging, etc.

I understand that it is a business, but charging people twice when it isn't costing them a penny is scandalous. This is where you come back and say "oh, employees wages, the electric bill...yada yada", trust me, they make enough. It's all about money grabbing, greed and being on one of them top 500 rich lists.

I had a PP account 4 or 5 years ago, then one day they sent me an email saying something about they were freezing my account (over 4000 pounds inside) because of EU tax rules and I had to prove to them how I was getting my money, I basically had to show them all my auction sites I visited and sold my second hand goods on.
I got my money back eventually but closed my account the very same day. It was a little too big brother for me.

Here's some tips to avoid losing your money to Paypal / Ebay:

Sellers of items:

1. Make your shipping policy x number of days after the payment clears your bank, not upon receipt in paypal.
This way you have the money in your bank and it will discourage stolen account frauds from buying your item. This is the easiest way to prevent being ripped off by someone using a stolen account but hardly anyone does it.

2. It's a good idea to set up a separate bank account to transfer Paypal funds into, once they clear transfer them out of the account into another - this will prevent paypal from reversing the transfer (which they can do at any time).

3. If you have the ability, set up a page to host your item photos or put up a shipping info form buyers have to fill out where you can track their IPs. Using whois you can see where they are, etc. If you see a hosting company, VPN or proxy service you're probably dealing with a fraud and should cancel the sale to be safe.

4. Don't ship to high risk countries, ever no matter what, period. (Hi, I'm a Dr in NYC and I want to buy your laptop and ship it to my son in Nigeria....)

Buyers:

1. Don't just look at the feedback %. You can have 1 sale and 100% positive feedback. You want to see a long standing account with lots of good feedback, not a brand new account with 1 sale. Better to lose that great deal than get nothing or a box of rocks.

2. Set up your own shipping account, then ask the seller to use it for shipping and have them use a form you host to set up the shipping (don't give them your UPS / Fed Ex account number). Again, you can track and check IPs to see if the seller is where they say they are or if they are using a hosting server, proxy or vpn.

3. If you have suspicions about a seller, ask them to call you on the phone. Look up some info about the city they live in and ask a few questions. If the old lady in San Diego has a Russian or African accent, you might want to find another item (not that a stolen or fraud account user would get on the phone with you but anyway...)

I realize it takes some tech ability to do some of these things but if you do a lot of online commerce you should probably learn or pay someone who can do it for you.

Originally posted by wdkirk
reviews.ebay.com...


Interesting read about gold and silver items on Ebay.

Take a look. It might explain something.

Re-quoted because many of the folks still commenting seem to have missed opening the link...

If you're selling gold, silver, bullion, coins, etc., to clients in other nations be aware that some nations like Germany, Australia to name a couple do not allow these items to pass through customs. They will either return the items to you or they will keep the items and sell them at auction or otherwise dispose of them. If this happens you're out your item, the mailing costs and will more than likely have to refund the purchaser his or her money. At the very least you will get a black mark on your sales record if you do not refund the funds. You can check which countries accept these items and which do not by going the the USPS website on line and look up which nations prohibit these items from being sent to their countries. Its well worth your time to look them up. England and Canada accept these items to name two. Shipping to Germany, Australia, etc., is asking for trouble with customs and the loss of your item.

Now I've been able to ship silver and gold to Germany and Australia but you must be totally up front with the discription. They will allow silver items and gold if they are collectors items like old coins and items from the Franklin and Washington Mint. So you label them collectors items with an excellent discription and you should do fine.

Please take a minute and indicate (below) if this information has been helpful to you. I do appreciate it. Thanks

If you found this helpful please vote on it. Thanks :-)

Obviously the OP's national laws raised heightened scrutiny over the transaction which seem to have conspired with the OP's glib response to the income question to cause this problem.

While this is clearly another prime example of idiotic bureaucracy and poorly thought out financial regulation, I believe the Op shares some culpability.

My two cents...

reply to post by woogleuk

I understand that it is a business, but charging people twice when it isn't costing them a penny is scandalous. This is where you come back and say "oh, employees wages, the electric bill...yada yada", trust me, they make enough. It's all about money grabbing, greed and being on one of them top 500 rich lists.

How are they charging twice?.....eBay is an online auction site that takes a commission from sales.
Paypal is a money transfer company that takes a commission on transfers they make.

I fail to see where anyone is being charged "twice" for one service

You answered the main question yourself really though when you said "charging people twice when it isn't costing them a penny"....then going on to state that they do indeed have overheads to pay for both companies, I'm sure that they make "enough" but that is just business I'm afraid.....it's been going on for millennia!

And as I said earlier, I'm no big fan of eBay or paypal......I just know how business works.