The president and God

�I belive God wanted me to become the president�. In Sweden such a statement would sink any politician. In the USA it is exactly what million of voters would like to hear from their leader. George W. Bush is the most openly religious president in the united states for several generations. In his fourties Bush, who was on the verge of becoming an alcoholic, was saved and reborn as an evangelist.

[program name]: �The Jesus factor� is about a U.S.A which is hard for many of us in Sweden to understand, but that you must understand to be able to grasp the nation in an adequate way.

Evangelists takes the Bible literally, as they believe it to be written by God and therefore views it as flawless. The presidents religious conviction is obvious in both his politic and his rethorics. And rethorics, that we might find difficult to digest, finds its way straight into the heart of the evangelist, from whom Bush receives a massive support. And they are many. Evengelists and reborn christians constitutes about 40 % of the voting population. It�s such an important group of voters that Bush could lose the jewish, the catholic, the black and the latino votes and still win the election with the support of the christian right wing.

Above (roughly translated from swedish) is an exerpt from the presentation of a documentary that will be sent on swedish television tonight. I will watch it if I can, as I�m rather intrigued by this phenomenon, being kind of profane myself. What is the non-religious american citizens opinions about the strong influence of religion in their politics and the policies of their presidency? Is it just us, Europeans, who get the chills when we hear religious rethorics being used by political leaders, be it Bush or the Ayatollah or whomever?



[edit on 2004-9-30 by EyesOfTheFuture]

Well, judging from the amount of replies on this post I might as well go find some litterature on the subject, if I can find any Or maybe this was just the wrong forum. It was just that I've always thought of religion and politics as a somewhat unholy "alliance". And surely, there must be some americans who aren't christians and therefore alienated by the rethorics used by politicians?

EOTF (please excuse the abbreviation)...

The Americans like to preach the seperation of the church and state, but in reality they are a religious republic (like Iran, but maybe not as strict and with alot more freedom)...

The government there supports prayer in school, which here in Australia would cause an absolute uproar, as it is imposing on young children a certain religious belief, and children can be very impressionable. If they are told to pray in school, they will assume that the religion they are praying for is the correct one.

I for one feel very incomfortable when religion and politics get mixed up, because it gives me images of the middle ages where religion dominated politics and progress (artistically, scientifically, etc etc) was brought to a stand still... I realise that this would not come to pass in such a way now, but i see religion as lacking in progress as they are trying to hold on to antiquidated ideals and trying to hold the world back from further advancement in a new idea may be proven true, thus proving the church wrong.

Originally posted by specialasianX

The government there supports prayer in school, which here in Australia would cause an absolute uproar, as it is imposing on young children a certain religious belief, and children can be very impressionable. If they are told to pray in school, they will assume that the religion they are praying for is the correct one.

I hate to break this to you but we dont have prayer in school here.

And the reason you havent got very many replies about this is it has been beat to death in half a dozen threads

we do have prayer in school jsut not teacher led prayer.

They LET them pray not MAKE them pray there is a BIG difference there

well if God wanted bush to be pres. then i am going to have no religion anymore

There's a lot of prayer in school today...

Face it, with achievement scores like we have now, there's more praying for good grades than studying for them...

I for one prayed before each test I didn't study for.....

Well, unless it is a private school, there is no prayer initiated by the staff at any school. Now, to not allow a child to bow its head before it eats a meal is tyranny and we have no right to impose such dogma. If we have Hindus, Muslims, and Jews that are free to practice their religion such as deviation from the dress code of grounds of religion, then we cannot prevent a child from silent prayer so long as it does not disrupt the rest of the class. I know a lot of you wish for such a thing, but until we're well under way to learning the hard lesson that socialism doesn't work (like so many before us), you're going to have to accept the fact that people are free to have their own beliefs in their hearts and minds.

Most leaders and indeed the majority of the population around the world have some sort of religious leanings. Most US presidents have been of Christian faith just as most arab leaders have been of Islamic faith. It is from religion that most people gain their moral compass which sets their mindset of right and wrong to a higher level than does our governing laws. Unless Bush or any other leader sees fit to force the popluation under their leadership to subscribe to their same beliefs, I can see only good coming from decisions made using a value system influenced by faith.

For a better understanding of religion with respect to our government and its influence, merely do a search for posts in Religion by Thomas Crown. I won't begin to try and relay all his writings and I dare say he probably won't want to re-type it again either.

Originally posted by astrocreepMost leaders and indeed the majority of the population around the world have some sort of religious leanings.

Yes, but it seems to me it is not common by political leaders to use such a strong emphasis on religion, accept in the US and in the countries of the middle east. This could just be a misunderstanding on my part, but it is the impression I have.

I can see only good coming from decisions made using a value system influenced by faith.

Can you really? I disagree. I prefer a system influenced by high moral standards, but without religious dogma.

For a better understanding of religion with respect to our government and its influence, merely do a search for posts in Religion by Thomas Crown.

Thanks, I'll do that.

Originally posted by Amuk
I hate to break this to you but we dont have prayer in school here.

We do. My Christian child was as free to pray as my Wiccan child. What was NOT allowed was either of them leading prayers (in essence, having one religion's prayers aired one day and another the next.)

Although we don't have complete freedom of religion here, we are moving away from an atmosphere of "the only acceptable form of praying is if it's Protestant and Christian." We still have a long way to go -- the only Chaplains permitted for Congress are Protestant (there's never been a Catholic or other religion permitted and the few times other religions have been proposed it has been shot down solidly.) We do finally have SOME pagan chaplains in the military, but I have yet to see pagans commonly leading prayer at public events (football games, council meetings, government sessions) and I would be completely surprised to find out that anyone has permitted a Satanist or Voodoo priest (both valid religions) to offer the opening prayer anywhere.

The fundamentalist religion seems to be a response to a feeling of threat while at the same time promoting a "you don't need science/let's go back to the Idylic Times (which never actually existed)" mentality. In the US (unlike other areas of the world such as Japan) technology is often viewed as some sort of Frankenstein, perpetually on the edge of turning and savaging its master.

We've seen that culturally, as religion becomes more important, science and scientific advances fall behind. The more secular Middle East/Arabia made many advances while Europe was wallowing in the Dark Ages. And as fundamentalism rises (with its very anti-technology stance) we are seeing the US falling behind other countries. Our math and science scores are failing, and I fear that our universities will soon be eclipsed by other nations' institutions.

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture

Can you really? I disagree. I prefer a system influenced by high moral standards, but without religious dogma.

But where do these moral standards originate? If we are to believe there is nothing past our own minute lifespans, why allow morality to play a part in the way we treat each other or ourselves? These standards of what constitutes moral behavior came from somewhere in each society..and I think you'll find most were derived from religion maybe not neccesarily Christianity but some belief in something greater than we are. My point is, its a good trait for a leader to have these in his/her moral infrastructure rather than to see no evil in any action they do so long as it benefits them. Now, I'm not saying I think Bush exeplifies this but merely making a blanket surmise.

I don't think that the major focus here is morality of a leader.

Although our moral values originate in judeo-christian tradition, we have created a society where religion is no longer neccesary for leading a righteous moral life. That has become more of a question of sociology and laws of society.

I just watched this documentary about Bush and religion on german TV and I have to say it is downright freaky. It is not about morals, it is about Bush believing he is sent from GOD to fight evil and bring justice. The people who have influenced him also think we are in endtimes and Bush leadership is a god-given thing. Bush goes on quoting Bible, Jesus, COMPLETELY out of context to justify KILLING people. Jesus was by all standards a tree hugging hippie, Bush is a conservative gun-loving trigger happy neo-con who made money on misery of others.

To put so much power in hands of a former alcoholic who thinks that GOD has chosen him to do God's justice on Earth (deffinition of this justice is variable and depends on current mood of preachers, priests, corporations etc, etc) is dangerous and foolish. Any other normal everyday person would be sent to a psychiatrist and treated properly, but Bush is on his way to win elections again, so he has another 4 years to do "God's bidding". Freaky, just freaky.

As somebody already mentioned, to talk like Bush in Europe is political suicide. Even religious people don't want to hear politicians talk about God leading them to do something. CDU/CSU (christian democratic party) in Germany never talks about God, although they are called CHRISTIAN democratic union.

America is all about "God bless us", "In God we trust", God bless this and that. God is everywhere. There are different forms of religious states. America is one form of it.

I don't want the leader of our country to allow his religious beliefs to interfere with actually running the country. If he wants to be religious, fine. If he wants to partake in religious ceremonies, and read the Bible, fine. But when he allows religion to sway his decisions on national matters, that is a problem. Unfortunately Bush seems incapable of separating the two, whether it's matters concerning abortion, stem-cell research, gay marriage, etc.

What is the non-religious american citizens opinions about the strong influence of religion in their politics and the policies of their presidency?

I'm not religious, and an American.

I say to each their own, unless it interferes with others' rights. In the case of THIS administration, it often does however. Whether it's abortion, euthanasia, marriage, stem cell research, etc. it seems that Bush's religion has had a profound impact on government policy. I certainly oppose this, and is simply one of MANY reasons the administration will not have my vote this year either....

Originally posted by they see ALL
well if God wanted bush to be pres. then i am going to have no religion anymore

The question is, which God is Bush referring to? It's obviously not the same I God I believe in.

Let us remember that Al Gore was the option in 2000. Gore is a Vietnam veteran, as well, albeit, not a combat vet. I don't know if there was divine intervention in the last election, but clearly, in my mind, at least, Bush was by far the best choice.

Has anyone seen Gore, lately. The man is a lunatic and makes Bush appear to have super-human judgement. Just as Giuliani said on 9/11, "Thank God, George Bush is President."

Originally posted by mrmulder

The question is, which God is Bush referring to? It's obviously not the same I God I believe in.

isn't there only one God

who can tell now-a-days

Originally posted by astrocreep
..and I think you'll find most were derived from religion maybe not neccesarily Christianity but some belief in something greater than we are. My point is, its a good trait for a leader to have these in his/her moral infrastructure rather than to see no evil in any action they do so long as it benefits them.

So in your opinion, not following any religion equals having a complete lack of humanity and morals?