To the Skeptics

Originally posted by D.Wolf
When someone comes to a notbeliever showing a radarscreen with a blimp on it with direction and unbelieveble speed indication, asking what it is, All a notbeliever can put in that gap is..

I don't know.

Why is that wrong?

I'll tell you why that is wrong.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

The simplest explanation is aliens, since this phenomenon goes back decades.

Originally posted by D.Wolf
I however am not looking for evidence. I don't expect to see that in my lifetime.

Radar returns ARE EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by D.Wolf
When someone comes to a notbeliever showing a radarscreen with a blimp on it with direction and unbelieveble speed indication, asking what it is, All a notbeliever can put in that gap is..

I don't know.

Why is that wrong?

I'll tell you why that is wrong.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

The simplest explanation is aliens, since this phenomenon goes back decades.

Originally posted by D.Wolf
I however am not looking for evidence. I don't expect to see that in my lifetime.

Radar returns ARE EVIDENCE.

edit on 6-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

The simplest explanation... let's see... We are on a planet with life on it.. The simplest explanation therefore: it's from this planet. So.. ehm hollow earthers might be onto something? How about time travelers... you know, the future being like way more futuristic and stuff. Or is it god... It seems god goes back a few decades too. What about secret stuff being tested. Maybe a weird fluke of nature.

You have a phenomenon on a radar screen and the simplest explanation is...

aliens...

I don't know...

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
Explain what happened in Kecksburg, PA.

This incident had definitive American military involvement among other agencies.

By the way, someone should ask the White House about it as well.

Ah, you must be one of those type of people. One of those people that thinks anybody who doesn't believe something you believe was alien are all in league with each other, members of some super secret "debunking" club or something. I propose your ignorant thread is nothing more than a childish and moronic attempt to troll. Plain and simple. Your 3 line post should have been identified by the mods (there only like a million of them around here I see all the time) and you should have been warned not to troll (as you can read warnings about this in the stickies posted in this forum)

That being said, yes, something did happen at Kecksburg. While I can't say for certain what it was, I can say I talked with enough people (yup, firsthand, not internet surfing). The last man I tracked down and spoke to about the event was living in Washington state. His thoughts on it matched two others, and they didn't know each other, nor were their thoughts and descriptions parroted from the web (the web wasn't a thing back then, lol). My conclusion was that is was conventional military technology, and pretty mundane at that. The cold war was a big thing at the time, so keep that in mind concerning the activities of the authorities as well.

Two people I spoke to claimed to actually see the object and the authorities involvement, while the third person only saw it come down (and he said it wasn't under control, simply falling). I don't believe the third guy though, he seemed a bit shifty.

I think what PROBABLY happened is that a spy satellite (theirs or ours) came down unexpectedly and the military went and picked it up. To go much beyond that, you have to accept as fact that the witness observations were all completely accurate, and knowing how lousy my own perceptions are, I prefer not to do that.

I can however tell you exactly how much the Kecksberg incident ultimately contributed to our understanding of UFOs.

Nothing.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by D.Wolf
When someone comes to a notbeliever showing a radarscreen with a blimp on it with direction and unbelieveble speed indication, asking what it is, All a notbeliever can put in that gap is..

I don't know.

Why is that wrong?

I'll tell you why that is wrong.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

The simplest explanation is aliens, since this phenomenon goes back decades.

Originally posted by D.Wolf
I however am not looking for evidence. I don't expect to see that in my lifetime.

Radar returns ARE EVIDENCE.

edit on 6-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

Sorry. Not all radar returns are evidence. Nor is the simplest answer: they are aliens.

Having been a radar tech in the US Navy, I've seen some strange things on the screen in my day. But not everything we saw can be called evidence.

I've had many things show up that were either reflections from thermals, which adjust the refraction index took care up. Spurrious noise in the receiver. Intermitent faults in the front end system. Bad data in the tracking system (symbol was there, but no video), etc, etc.

When does it become evidence? It becomes evidence when you have visual confirmation.

Visual confirmation can be 3 things: ground based (people on the ground, or cameras on the ground see something), air based (again, pilots of other craft see something), or multiple radar bases (more than one radar system is picking it up).

So you have the "evidence" now........that means it's aliens, right? The simplest explanation? Right?

Wrong.

What you have is a

Unidentified

flying object. You do NOT have proof that it is aliens, nor is that the simplest answer.

It's called "Unidentified" for a reason. You can't assume (or you can if you want to be foolish, and unscientific about it) that it's aliens.

Something crashed in the woods while I was hunting! It MUST be aliens!
The phone rang and there was no one on the line! It MUST be aliens!

There's some strange thing growing in my tupperware bowl in the fridge! It MUST be aliens!

See how foolish it sounds?

You can not use "Occam's Razor" with this, all due to the fact that no one, and I mean NO ONE has proven that aliens exist!

The principle is often incorrectly summarized as "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one." In practice, the application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[1] The razor asserts that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers point out also that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.[2]

Occam's Razor

So again, you're going to have to PROVE that they are aliens. Right now, the only thing that ANYONE can PROVE is that they are: Unidentified

More simple explanations would include:

1) Natural Phenomenon
2) Something of earthly origin but is kept secret from the public (IE Government / military Programs)

Does this rule out aliens? Nope. Didn't say that. Just showing how aliens is NOT the simplest explanation.

Nor are radar returns always proof of anything.

Just for the record, I do believe that life is out there. Whether or not it's intelligent or able to travel interstellar distances remains to be seen and PROVEN.

Originally posted by eriktheawful
More simple explanations would include:

1) Natural Phenomenon
2) Something of earthly origin but is kept secret from the public (IE Government / military Programs)

1. Like a super fast bird the size of a football field?

2. In the 1940's governments had technology that greatly surpasses the F22 raptor?

Oh yeah those are MUCH simpler explanations than aliens.
***SARCASM***

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by eriktheawful
More simple explanations would include:

1) Natural Phenomenon
2) Something of earthly origin but is kept secret from the public (IE Government / military Programs)

1. Like a super fast bird the size of a football field?

2. In the 1940's governments had technology that greatly surpasses the F22 raptor?

Oh yeah those are MUCH simpler explanations than aliens.
***SARCASM***

edit on 7-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

Sarcasm and Insults are what many people resort to when they are loosing an argument. Remember that.

Again, you have no proof that they are aliens. That's the reason for the word "Unidentified".

I could just as easly say: "they are time travelers from the future." or "they are interdimensional beings visiting our universe" as the "simplest" answer.

What makes your "aliens" more valid that my two statements above? Nothing. Because I have no proof either.

The technology to travel in time, or between dimensions is just as above our heads as interstellar travel.

ETA: and BTW - I didn't say that EVERYTHING could be explained by my 2 simplest explanations, did I? Another good example of why resorting to insults and sarcasm makes you look bad.

Time traveling now? Come on.....

All your explanations are ridiculously more complicated than the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
Time traveling now?

Come on.....

All your explanations are ridiculously more complicated than the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

edit on 8-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

Really? Then please educate the rest of us:

What is the secret of interstellar travel?

How do we completely cancel out an object's inertia? (all those right angle turns)

You see? You're laughing at my suggestions. But really if you stop and think about it, my suggestions of time travel or dimensional travel are just as valid as your suggestion of intelligent alien beings using interstellar travel to buzz people here on Earth, since neither of us have proof of anything.

The only thing any of us really DO know is that: they are Unidentified.

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
Time traveling now?

Come on.....

All your explanations are ridiculously more complicated than the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

edit on 8-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

Really? Then please educate the rest of us:

What is the secret of interstellar travel?

How do we completely cancel out an object's inertia? (all those right angle turns)

You see? You're laughing at my suggestions. But really if you stop and think about it, my suggestions of time travel or dimensional travel are just as valid as your suggestion of intelligent alien beings using interstellar travel to buzz people here on Earth, since neither of us have proof of anything.

The only thing any of us really DO know is that: they are Unidentified.

Travelling back in time is not a valid hypothesis and never will be. There is no such thing as time even at the scientific level. Atomic time is based on the movement of atoms such as caesium.


In other words, time is a human construct. There is no time in actuality. This is not my opinion, this is the scientific opinion. Research atomic clocks.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by eriktheawful

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
Time traveling now?

Come on.....

All your explanations are ridiculously more complicated than the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

edit on 8-5-2012 by NotReallyASecret because: (no reason given)

Really? Then please educate the rest of us:

What is the secret of interstellar travel?

How do we completely cancel out an object's inertia? (all those right angle turns)

You see? You're laughing at my suggestions. But really if you stop and think about it, my suggestions of time travel or dimensional travel are just as valid as your suggestion of intelligent alien beings using interstellar travel to buzz people here on Earth, since neither of us have proof of anything.

The only thing any of us really DO know is that: they are Unidentified.

Travelling back in time is not a valid hypothesis and never will be. There is no such thing as time even at the scientific level. Atomic time is based on the movement of atoms such as caesium.


In other words, time is a human construct. There is no time in actuality. This is not my opinion, this is the scientific opinion. Research atomic clocks.

Here you go, let's actually show the REAL scientific opinion, which has time being a very real thing.....

Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future. Time is a component quantity of many measurements used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change of quantities in material reality or in the conscious experience.[1][2][3] The temporal position of events with respect to the transitory present is continually changing; events happen, then are located further and further in the past.

Time

Here's a link for the physical definition of Time:

Time in physics

As for researching the Atomic Clock, atomic clocks themselves are used for temporal measurement. Not to prove or disprove whether time exists or not. For that, refer back to the link on the physics of time or the link for time itself.

As for "time is a human construct", I see that and raise you:

Since there is absolutely no proof what so ever at this time that UFO's are aliens, the suggestion that they are aliens who have traveled across interstellar or intergalactic distances to visit earth.............is a human construct.

QED: Aliens don't exist (because they are merely a human construct).

Whether they are actually aliens, or time travelers, or interdimensional travelers, the point persists that there is no proof and those suggestions are just that: suggestions. Theories. Assumed things.

You suggest that time travel is a much more complex answer than aliens from another world, because "time travel is impossible".

However, it's a very well known fact that time travel to the future is very much possible. It would be a one way trip however as far as we know how to do it right now.
Past time travel is thought to not be possible, because the only way that we know how to do it with a worm hole, and Stephen Hawkings believes that the moment you loop a worm hole to achieve this, it would destroy itself due to the radiation involved. But again, that's his theory. No one really knows, because at this point in time (yes pun intended), we can not make worm holes with the tech that we currently have.

Guess what? Same goes for FTL (Faster Than Light) travel. We have a lot of theories on how this might be achieved, but not the tech to actually do it. Some scientist believe it might actually not be possible to achieve FTL. So that goes right up there with your "time travel is not possible" statement.

Again, the only thing we really know, is that we DO NOT KNOW.

Would it be cool if they were aliens? Hell yes! Be cool as hell in my book......unless they're here to enslave/erase /biologically mutate us. But it would certainly be cool.

Would it be cool if they were time travelers? Again, Hell yes! It would be cool to know what's in the future....unless the guy that steps out say: 'Wow! So this is what it was like before everything almost ended. you guys are SO screwed!"

Originally posted by eriktheawful
Since there is absolutely no proof what so ever at this time that UFO's are aliens,

Its the simplest explanation. Now you are shifting the goal posts.

Originally posted by eriktheawful
Guess what? Same goes for FTL (Faster Than Light) travel. We have a lot of theories on how this might be achieved, but not the tech to actually do it. Some scientist believe it might actually not be possible to achieve FTL. So that goes right up there with your "time travel is not possible" statement.

I said traveling BACK in time is not possible. Time doesn't exist. Its a social construct. Seconds, minutes etc. are artificially defined.

Originally posted by eriktheawful
QED: Aliens don't exist (because they are merely a human construct).

Actually scientists agree they exist, simply because of the mathematical probabilities. Thats the rational behind SETI. The controversy is whether they are coming here or not.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by eriktheawful
Since there is absolutely no proof what so ever at this time that UFO's are aliens,

Its the simplest explanation. Now you are shifting the goal posts.

No, I'm not shifting the goal posts. I'm debating with you on what you are declaring is the "simplest answer to UFO's"

The simplest answer is normally something that is actually "known" or concrete. "Aliens" is not a simple answer is what I have been trying to show you. I listed what some of the simplest answers are:

1) Natural things
2) Government / military things.

BTW - I should have also thrown this one in: 3) Hoaxes

I also did state that not ALL of them can be answered that way. But you decided to answer back with a snarky post about birds being the size of a football field. because you assumed that I was saying ALL UFOs can be answered that way. That right there shows your tendency to assume things without reading carefully or thinking about what was said.

Consider this:
A man is laying on the street dead. We can not get any closer than 20 feet to him. but we can see him laying there, not breathing, with blood on his chest and pooled around him. What is the simplest answer to what killed him?

He was either stabbed or shot. If we could get close enough and look at the evidence better, we could determine not only which it was (stabbing or gunshot), but also exactly what kind of stabbing instrument or fire arm.

Your answer of "Aliens", for the above scene would be:

"A molecular particle beam was used to rupture his skin and muscle tissue, allowing him to bleed out."

Because we are so far away from the victim, I can't call you a liar. Somewhere in the realm of possibilities, what you suggest could, maybe, possibly be the answer.

But it's hardly the simplest one.

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by eriktheawful
Guess what? Same goes for FTL (Faster Than Light) travel. We have a lot of theories on how this might be achieved, but not the tech to actually do it. Some scientist believe it might actually not be possible to achieve FTL. So that goes right up there with your "time travel is not possible" statement.

I said traveling BACK in time is not possible. Time doesn't exist. Its a social construct. Seconds, minutes etc. are artificially defined.

I'm afraid you're confused. Time DOES exist. Without it, physics would fall apart.

The measurement and perception of time is a human construct, yes. It's how we perceive time.
But as for time itself not existing: citation please?

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret

Originally posted by eriktheawful
QED: Aliens don't exist (because they are merely a human construct).

Actually scientists agree they exist, simply because of the mathematical probabilities. Thats the rational behind SETI. The controversy is whether they are coming here or not.

Ah yes! I apologize and misspoke. Let me correct that:

QED: Aliens visiting Earth don't exist (because they are merely a human construct).

That is what I meant to say. I'm fully aware and support the idea behind life existing elsewhere in our universe. I just have not seen any absolute proof that they have interstellar travel and are bothering to visit here. I was trying to show how your statement of "time does not exist, because it's a human construct" sounds.

If you really believe that time itself does not exist (that's time, not the measurement or perception of by humans), then you need to email Causality and tell it to stop mucking about so things stop happening, as it's being extremely inconsiderate.

trying to refute aliens with time travel? For real?