Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

They have come a long way. Today, Christianity is banned from our government schools. Instead, students are immersed in the new global spirituality -- a contemporary, idealistic blend of all religions -- through classroom myths, rituals, symbols and multicultural experiences. This new spiritual synthesis has been adapted to fit the amoral, religious standards outlined by UNESCO's Declaration on the role of religion in a culture of peace and Declaration of Principles on Tolerance.

Christianity being banned from public schools, is an issue that comes up frequently, especially when it comes to tolerance related issues.

But, in fact, if you go back and read what historical documents are available religion was not intended to be taught in public school, I have an entire pdf file of Thomas Jefferson quotes etc so I will demonstrate this via what he wrote regarding religion in public schools.

"The want of instruction in the various creeds of religious faith existing among our citizens presents... a chasm in a general institution of the useful sciences. But it was thought that this want, and the entrustment to each society of instruction in its own doctrine, were evils of less danger than a permission to the public authorities to dictate modes or principles of religious instruction, or than opportunities furnished them by giving countenance or ascendancy to any one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1822. ME 19:414

"After stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there and have the free use of our library and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other. This fills the chasm objected to ours, as a defect in an institution professing to give instruction in all useful sciences... And by bringing the sects together, and mixing them with the mass of other students, we shall soften their asperities, liberalize and neutralize their prejudices, and make the general religion a religion of peace, reason, and morality." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1822. ME 15:405

Way back then it was expressed that no religion was to be taught in public schools, and that religious sects should establish their own schools, where their specific religious doctrine could be taught to students of such religious sects, without the risk in public school of elevating one sect's belief's above the beliefs of all others, but to ensure that all students had the same opportunities academically whether in a private school or strictly public school, it was suggested that the religious schools be located near the public schools so that those students who attended religious based schools, still had access to the same educational materials, libraries etc to obtain an education equivalent to that offered in the public schools.

Original source

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


My favorite subject, math was totally ruined in the NY school system.... Instead of teaching how to actually do the math problems, they wanted to teach us how to punch the buttons in the scientific calculator....

Maybe before that no idiot left behind stuff came up it was a valid practice. By the time you got to high school level math, you already knew enough basics to use a regular calculator to save time on stuff you already learned. At least 3/4 of my graduating class, including the teacher, could barely multiply, let alone figure out complex formulas. It's sad but true, I had to teach the teacher most of the time, how she made it through college, I don't know. Maybe her parents knew the right people, or greased the right palms. When a teacher is supposed to be able to teach stuff they don't even know themself, something has horribly gone wrong.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

While you were talking about trolls in here, I was actually at Church. God and several other people are my witness. The joke is on you. Have a nice night.

That was all you wrote, and speaking of snotty remarks, even added your own little "neener neener" to the end of it with your "The joke is on you" comment,and you added no qualifiers, like it some how meant something that you were at church, I simply pointed out that solely attending church does not make someone a Christian, or anything else, any more than attending the bakery makes you a loaf of bread, or attending a garage makes you a car. If I had know your faculties were so delicate, i would have refrained, My bad.

Theology? Pointing out that it takes more than attending church, a lot more, to be a Christian is a theological argument in it's simplest form, I feel bad now that you missed it.

The "saints" as appointed by the Roman catholic church may be important to RC's, but they can hardly be called Christian Mystics any more than the authors of the apocrypha. Generally, the Vatican is very picky, and biased I might add, about who gets to be a saint.

So churches that meat in a band hall are not as close to God as those in a nicely appointed cathedral?

The building has nothing to do with your relationship with God, that is as about as shallow a thing I have ever heard to be honest.

Most of my conversations with the good Lord, happen while I drive, they tend to be informal, and friendly chats. I don't need an altar to facilitate any part of my relationship with God.

Of course my pastor gives sermons on scripture, but I ALSO can think for myself, I study what he brings to his flock, and try to see past any personal biases or subjectivity he or she (team pastoral charge) might have let slip into it, I don't rely on what other people telling me what to think to have an opinion, I form it from many sources and from the wisdom shared with me.

Originally posted by MidnightTide
reply to post by Annee

 

So indoctrination is ok as long as you agree with the message? As you have said, school isn't the place to teach religion, well - neither is pushing a political agenda.

Where exactly did I say I agree with either? Or disagree with either?

Don't interpret posts. Take them at face value.

Originally posted by arielburns
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Geez. Where have you been all my life? La luna, my reflection.

This is a compliment I assume?

I have been studying up on the NWO all this time.

reply to post by RyanFromCan

Theology? Pointing out that it takes more than attending church, a lot more, to be a Christian is a theological argument in it's simplest form

Yes it is, and I have not seen you move much beyond this simple thinking, and pushing the Dan Savage model of ethical behavior. Like I said before, I posted some of the great works of the Saints, and your answer is to whine about the Vatican being picky about it's saints. Yep, and I I pulled material from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Let me know when you studied it.

So churches that meat in a band hall are not as close to God as those in a nicely appointed cathedral?

It's meet and not meat.
You seem to have missed half of my post stating that one can worship the Divine at home or anywhere and focus on the heart. I said that I have a private altar at home. If you choose to worship in a band hall, as long as your heart is in the right place.....right? I merely said that Church was more than just socializing.

reply to post by TKDRL


hmmmm interesting story. Yes, it is better not to have to rely entirely on a calculator. I was one who didn't take to math too easily. I did have a college professor who made algebra really fun and interesting. He used humor and that made a huge difference for me. He remarked once that most ways of grading the problem grade you what you did wrong, not what you did right.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Meet, not Meat, yes, mea culpa, damned spell check got me again, oh how I hate everything I ever say being deemed irrelevant because of one small spelling mistake, please forgive me, and here is a red pen for you to go back and check all my previous posts too.

Yes, i have not moved past the most simple of theological arguments, because many, if not most of the supposedly devout here, don't even get the simple stuff, and to progress they would need to understand the most basic of concepts, before they could build on them, and that isn't happening.

Like I said before, I pay no attention to the teachings of the Catholic Church, there is a long history of violence, conspiracy, double dealings, and subterfuge in the Vatican, one I do not subscribe too, and it has more to do with politics. I have read a fair bit on the "saints" as the RC's see it, but put not much weight on them at all, I will read those links you posted earlier some time when I have some time to waist, and need a good belly laugh or two, maybe I should keep my laptop by the can.

The atmosphere of a beautiful Church always makes me feel worshipful and reverent. I seek to duplicate that feeling by having a personal altar at home. One can worship God on the Altar of the Heart wherever one is, but sometimes an atmosphere of reverence can help.

Funny, that sounded an awful lot like you were saying a beautiful church makes you feel worshipful and reverent, and you try to recreate that feeling at home, with your own altar.

I only have to walk out my door the feel the reverence of God's creation, and feel worshipful

reply to post by RyanFromCan

Funny, that sounded an awful lot like you were saying a beautiful church makes you feel worshipful and reverent, and you try to recreate that feeling at home, with your own altar.

And what exactly is wrong with that? I wouldn't be the only person to do such a thing.

www.google.com... IHmiAKrvrW0BA&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=1076&bih=606

www.google.com... IHmiAKrvrW0BA&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=1076&bih=606#hl=en&rlz=1T4ACGW_enUS459US463&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pictures+of+Christian++altars+at+home&oq=pictures+of+ Christian++altars+at+home&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=img.12...19986.21608.0.23783.10.9.0.1.0.1.123.674.7j2.9.0...0.0.TlYeTFig4Lo&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf., cf.osb&fp=41f1fe34fe659a8b&biw=1076&bih=606

reply to post by RyanFromCan


Buddhist altars at home

www.google.com... IHmiAKrvrW0BA&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=1076&bih=606#hl=en&rlz=1T4ACGW_enUS459US463&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=pictures+of+Buddhist++altars+at+home&oq=pictures+of+B uddhist++altars+at+home&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=img.12...207996.209182.2.211573.8.8.0.0.0.0.145.771.7j1.8.0...0.0.tk7uKJ-YjWg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf., cf.osb&fp=41f1fe34fe659a8b&biw=1076&bih=606

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


I actually did not say anything was wrong with that, I did however question the impression I got from your "initial" post as to whether you were suggesting that a "nice" home or Church altar was needed to worship, or feel the need or want to worship. I simply pointed out that not all people, and that would include me, find this a need, and some places that congregations meet would be considered anything but luxurious.

No need to get so defensive, almost gives the impression of a conscience not at ease or something.

ETA: I have to be somewhere in 9 hours, so I have to get to bed, talk at you tomorrow afternoon possibly.

This makes me sick, it started with the confederate flag, than it went to the american flag, than no prayers, than no singing nat. anthem in the morn and now Jesus.. what next. you know what makes me very sick..its ok for a guy or girl to wear a Lady Ga Ga shirt with her nearly naked and thats ok? how about we cant wear a cross but yet Muslim folks can wear a scarf....Why is everythin a Muslim do is ok but a Christian can't?
I am really getting sick of all this crap, it needs to end.

We have our freedom of rights that gives us the right to be American and do American things, the big dam problem with that rule though is they forgot that anyone who comes and be american can practice their beliefs which means it can be our downfall because if our religion bothers them or our laws its bias or racist to their beliefs, another part i really hate, every time i see a black man he always say wassup nigga' iam white thank you and if i said that to them they have me for racism and I hate no religion,race or color, I just don't like the additude they put against our rights to wear and worship and beliefs...in caps this is my message- IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE OUR LAWS, RULES AND WAYS OF LIVING AND SPIRITUAL BELIEFS THAN GO BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY WHERE THEY BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND LEAVE AMERICA THE HELL ALONE.

I already starting to see the new system taking over, we have those religions getting top seats in law medical and political and they make our laws no good, they make our beliefs so bias and they make fun of us and they are tearing America apart and doing a good job ruining Americans lives... The same sex marriage is happening, you watch, Pedophile will be a religion and anyone says something a law suit comes in your face.
This is the price of Democracy, if the foreigners cant wage war on us and attack us, than they will come in and be American and hack the # out of our system to the point of no America..This is the new Democracy A terrorist has the right to do whatever he likes because he now is an American and have the right to appose us and he knows it and he will use Democracy as the new Weapon of Mass destruction against us and we can't do a damn tthing because we believe in Democracy too. This world is messed up we are so doomed.

reply to post by Starchild23


Hold on. Religion is an innate part of our country...our country was founded based upon Christianity. Christianity plays a key role in a huge part of our history. Religion plays a key role in the whole world.

So we're going to teach about ancient Egyptian gods, but not about Christianity? That's discrimination.

Are you suggesting discrimination in our educational curriculum?

Haha if everybody took your stance on this subject there would always be discrimination. What about Hinduism? Buddhism? WHAT ABOUT THE JEDIS?! :O Not that I'd ever ever believe or follow any of these religions but to not teach them in school when members of the populace are followers is technically discrimination.. if one was to take your view on the matter

Personally I believe religion should be left out of school, except for history classes where students could learn the implications of religions. School is for teaching not preaching

reply to post by Pixiefyre


Pixie, I don't know what happened with that post but it looks like I posted all that stuff you said, too bad it is too late for you to reformat it, but I just wanted to point it out so that others did not mistake that stuff for mine.


And not that Thomas Jefferson and the US Constitution has any jurisdiction over Canada....but I did find this interesting

Jefferson viewed the "wall" as limiting the Federal government from "intermeddling" in Church government, as explained in his letter to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808:

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prohibited] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States [10th Amendment].

Jefferson continued:
Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General [Federal] government...Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets.

The Federal Government was not limited, though, from spreading religion in western territories, as April 26, 1802, Jefferson extended a 1787 act of Congress where lands were designated:

For the sole use of Christian Indians and the Moravian Brethren missionaries for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity.

And again, December 3, 1803, Congress ratified Jefferson's treaty with Kaskaskia Indians:

Whereas the greater part of the said tribe have been baptized and received into the Catholic Church...the United States will give annually, for seven years, one hundred dollars toward the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for said tribe the duties of his office, and also to instruct as many of their children as possible...And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars, to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church.

Jefferson also said: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - "Yes, we did produce a near perfect Republic. But will they keep it, or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction."

...The director of the Center for Christian Statesmanship says the men who founded America never intended to remove God from public life. Dr. Frank Wright says quite the contrary, most were devout Christians who applied their Christian faith to everyday life, including government. He says President Thomas Jefferson is a good example. He notes that at the same time Jefferson served as president, he was the chairman of the D.C. public school system -- and mandated in 1804 that two books be taught in those schools: the Bible and Watts' Hymnal. Wright calls that "an extraordinary thing to do" for someone who believes in the "separation of church and state." Wright believes anti-Gospel forces like the American Civil Liberties Union have twisted the working of the establishment clause and developed their own false interpretation about separation of church and state -- which he says the founding fathers never intended.

www.earstohear.net...

In other words, the ACLU and the Progressives are full of it.

Thank you, I don't know how I did that! I haven't yet figured out how to nest quotes let alone come up with formatting like I did there!

Ok I have to comment here, I live extremely close to this school, I know people involved, I've talked to parents at the school, etc. It wasn't the T Shirt that caused it, this kid had a long history of doing everything in his power to preach at the other kids, regardless of their faiths, have no respect for the fact that there are hindi, muslim and jewish kids at the school, the school finally got fed up with this kid's fundamental holier than thou in your face attitude as he was instigating far before the T Shirt incident religious intolerance for other students.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Annee

 

You can interpret a lot of things as hate. The fact schools don't teach religion can be called hate too...educational discrimination. But see, there's a choice of how to view it.

Always a choice.

No public school should be teaching religion.

Belief - non-belief is personal and individual. That is why you Choose which church to go to.

Hard not to when it is so tied to history. All forms of religion should be taught in school as history, it is belief in said religions that should not. That is when it is up to the individual.

Would be curious to see if anyone there wears a headscarf or yarmulke, and if so, if it is allowed.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Pixiefyre

 

...The director of the Center for Christian Statesmanship says the men who founded America never intended to remove God from public life. Dr. Frank Wright says quite the contrary, most were devout Christians who applied their Christian faith to everyday life, including government. He says President Thomas Jefferson is a good example. He notes that at the same time Jefferson served as president, he was the chairman of the D.C. public school system -- and mandated in 1804 that two books be taught in those schools: the Bible and Watts' Hymnal. Wright calls that "an extraordinary thing to do" for someone who believes in the "separation of church and state." Wright believes anti-Gospel forces like the American Civil Liberties Union have twisted the working of the establishment clause and developed their own false interpretation about separation of church and state -- which he says the founding fathers never intended.

www.earstohear.net...

In other words, the ACLU and the Progressives are full of it.

It seems much more likely that Dr Frank Wright is full of it. Jefferson's own words:

To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense he wished anyone to be, sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others…”

ie he wasn't opposed to xianity at all, and thought Jesus had a great message which he followed - but to heck with the concept of an actual church.

Several of teh founding fathers had similar ideas - they were deists - beleivers in a god, but not beleivers in any of the christian churches - in the 1830's they weer sometimes labeled as infidels - eg

Rev. Bird Wilson had this to say about them in a 1831 sermon:

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity."

from here