Possible solution to Global meltdown

I was thinking today about a new political ideology. Lets call it socialist capitalism.
The way I see it is like this. Socialism more or less forces or compels the humanbeing into being co-opted into working for the good of the state. In order for this to work, a person has to feel huge patriotism towards "his or her country", basically an overwhelming love e.g. North Korea. This love, which like all love is an emotional state, so therefore irrational for the most part, is manipulated into forming within the person by a huge propaganda machine.
The machine promotes only one "good and true" way of life, and points out all the good points in the system and benefits of working towards a united goal. it also points out only the flaws in any competing system, like capitalism. This system is also reinforced, the same as other political systems, especially U.S. capitalism, when an outside enemy is created to threaten your way of life and the security of the system in which you and your family live. So in may ways already we can see that socialism and Capitalist countries use many of the same tactics to garner the support of the worker, at the base of the pyramid.
therefore the cold war in fact hugely benefited both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. Coincidence, I doubt it.
the main difference in U.S. capitalism as not as significant as you would believe. we already know that communist state run media, was a propaganda tool directly controlled by the cap stone. Where as much of U.S. media and western media in general is also really run by the state. This is done indirectly however, through a series of middle men, who operate as multi billionaire media tycoons, eg Rupert Murdoch, who has basically chosen every British prime minister for the last 30 years due to his almost total ownership of the "free press" within Britain.
Another similarity between Capitalism and socialism is this one.In socialist countries we are told repeatedly in the media (one of the main flaws to the counter system) is that socialist countries do not allow the people to choose who leads their country. Where as in Capitalist countries, the people are told they are the ones who choose the leader, through the "democratic" process, however once again the leader is not in fact chosen by the people. This is again done indirectly by making sure the people are given an extremely limited choice of a democrat "capitalist" or a republican "capitalist". Not only that but if another political ideology tries to emerge withing the system it is stifled due to lack of funding and not being promoted or even discussed in the media or worse attacked and discredited by the media eg Ron Paul (Libertarian)..leaving the population completely either unaware of any other way forward or convinced that any other way is bad..In essence no different to how communism or Fascism does not allow any other political viewpoint, they just do it more directly. So we see within a capitalist system there is about as much choice in who leads you as there is in a socialist or communist or even a Fascist system. Its like saying you can have Coke or Pepsi but never water or beer.
the main difference between Capitalism and socialism used to be the differences in what compelled the workers to contribute towards the system.
In socialism models, the worker was convinced into working for the state, for 3 main reasons.

1. Is the principal reason anyone works, to support themselves with food, clothing and a roof over their heads.
2.Out of either blind patriotism and rivalry between what the system they have been conditioned to love and the rival system,
3. The threat of war from a rival system and the destruction of their homes and families.

However in the U.S.A. the exact same manipulative controls are used on the population.
the only difference compelling the capitalist worker to continue working, was the added incentive of getting "rich".
This is the only difference in real terms between capitalism and communism.
The extra added bonus of the individual being able to have "freedom through working" is what has sustained the Capitalist model so far. Also the fact that even in socialist states TV and magazines and now the internet have leaked through to help show socialists "the freedom" of the capitalist worker. This supposed freedom based on money, has no doubt helped to bring about the collapse of the socialist model in most of the world and even in China the people are converting to a capitalist mentality of "self interest", in other words, Ill get mine, even if it means me having to climb over you to get it.
because this element in the "freedom of the capitalist model", supports the system but also undermines the whole system if left unchecked eg. the Housing boom and the Global Economic Collapse. Notice how the collapse hardly impacted China though, this is because its people in large are still working under a socialist mindset..however as I stated in the big cities of china, the mind set is changing to the capitalist model of self interest. In other words China is slowly becoming Americanized. However if China was not a communist state right now, there would have been no breaks within the whole global system. In essence China has saved the west and capitalism up til this point as it has not participated in the global borrowing, pyramid scheme, instead it loaned money to support Capitalism in the west. How ironic.
So now China owns the Wests debt, particularly the U.S.A's debt. as everyone knows, the money isn't worth the paper its printed on and if the west simply create a new currency, it would wipe that debt out, especially if they falsely inflated the value of the new currency. This would not surprise me one bit, as many people seem to think the dollar will collapse, well if it does, TPTB will simply create a replacement currency, with a different picture on it, but still worthless paper. it will allow the U.S. to unfairly escape from its debt, or the vast majority of it at least this however would p155 off china no end and could result in a new cold war or an all out WW3.
For all I know America has deliberately got into this debt with China in order for it to advance its own black projects, which are speculated to cost trillions of dollars If this is the case the U.S. may be confident it can escape its debtors due to some huge leaps in military technology. However if this is the case and China backs down, then China will also stop being the worlds factory and lender.
So i propose a new idea.
Socialist Capitalism. Read my next post for an explanation of how it might work.

reply to post by splitlevel


Socialist Capitalism aka State Capitalism is what China does, so your idea is already being tried and it isn't working out very well. Socialist Capitalism is an oxymoron because capitalism can only exist with maximum individual liberty and minimum government influence, and socialism is minimum individual liberty with maximum government influence. America has been mixing socialism and capitalism for decades and look where that has gotten us. It also seems that you fail to understand the difference between true capitalism and crony capitalism.

First imagine a country like Britain for example. What you need to get from the worker, is a joy for working and a genuine love for their country. this can be achieved with no propaganda or brainwashing.
1. Take note of what self interest is. It is the first primary driving force in what compels a person to do anything, unless they are a complete religious extremist who will sacrifice themselves for the belief.
Using the slefintrest of the individual, almost in the same way capitalism does, you allow the worker to accumulate more money that they need to live, therefore giving them a sense of expendable income and "freedom". however go further than this and scrap all income taxes on the worker. this creates a supercharged worker, who is more productive and has a genuine love for the system he /she works for, as it allows the persons work to only be done for the persons self interest and not the systems. however in a crisis the worker will fully support the system that has given him so much freedom.
2. Scrap all taxes on imported goods. this enables the economy to get supercharged, where workers have more expendable income and prices on imported goods are slashed. This would also encourage tourism, to buy cheap goods. of course you can tax services and flights.
3. Tax employers to make up for lost income tax on workers. in other words tax the mega rich, mega amounts. This would work, as the mega corporations would bend over backwards to get access to an unlimited market, where every worker has masses of expendable income.
4. Import a work force. Self interest may drive the worker to work more, but once they have their pockets over flowing with money they may well get lazy. So allow immigrant workers to come into the country on a set time limit and do not tax them. This will encourage high quality workers into the system, who can come and go and revitalize their own countries economies with their new wealth.
5. Allow workers to donate towards the up keep of the system and infrastructure. It may be surprising to know but humans do in fact give loyally to systems without being forced into it, if they "love" the system they are participating in. Eg donations to the church has made the church extremely wealthy.
6. Through taxing corporations, and through worker donations, infrastructure and a health service can be built. Workers who have obtained enough wealth can pay for themselves and their own families to have health care. Other workers get the exact same treatment but pay less or nothing depending on how much they have financially.

If you think this is a bad or good idea..or have any other solution's please add them, as I'm sure the world needs a new idea. rather than continuing limping on as we are doing.

Also, I forgot, the rules of the system should be not changed. Therefore is would be considered undemocratic. the leadership simply stick to the rules. therefore any official is simply a figurehead, but not a decision maker. the rules therefore have already made all the decisions.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by splitlevel

 

Socialist Capitalism aka State Capitalism is what China does, so your idea is already being tried and it isn't working out very well. Socialist Capitalism is an oxymoron because capitalism can only exist with maximum individual liberty and minimum government influence, and socialism is minimum individual liberty with maximum government influence. America has been mixing socialism and capitalism for decades and look where that has gotten us. It also seems that you fail to understand the difference between true capitalism and crony capitalism.

edit on 24-4-2012 by OptimusSubprime because: (no reason given)

State Capitalism, in China, has so far led to the building of mega cities within a few years. It has also led the Chinese to expand into Africa, Brazil and God knows where else. It has led China to buy up quite a bit of America. Id say it's working pretty well actually.
However still a far bit short of running perfectly as we know, corruption is rife in China, but its also rife in Capitalism in the west..Lobbying isn't exactly a good way to encourage elected politicians, id call that corruption or bribery.

Also if Capitalism means maximum individual liberty..then why can you be arrested for Jay walking? That kind of law belongs in a Fascist state, yet its been a well used law in the states for a long time. there are many laws in the U.S. that are anti individual freedom in fact, more so than in any country I can think of outside of a totalitarian state. Yet the U.S. is Capitalist. I would definable not say it is open to individual liberty however as most laws restrict actual freedoms.

"Possible solution to Global meltdown"

Forget possible solution because we already have two solutions that has been tried and tested.

China is not going bust and they hang bankers that commit large scale fraud.

Number two solution is to follow Iceland and throw the bankers in jail and to forgive all debt.

We had laws to hold the bankers in check but they bribed the politicians to remove these laws as they are writing millions more for everyone else or the police and judges fail to enforce or police the few laws remaining.

Anyone thinking they are going to get the 401k carrot needs only look in the mirrow to see a fool.

To expand further. My actual belief is self interest is at the core of all animals, including humans. However because other animals live as a law unto themselves or within small groups, then if their family unit breaks down, perhaps due to the leader of the heard dying or being replaced by a challenger, its not the end of their species.
However human beings who build civilizations have designed a system on such a large scale that when it collapses, the entire species is under threat. Either by mass starvation of nuclear war or a combination of both.
The main problem with socialism was the repression of individual self interest, witch generated feelings of resentment within the population, especially when they got to see how westerners were, supposedly living it up . And the main problem with Capitalism, especially in the U.S. is not unrestricted freedom, because there definatley is not unrestricted freedom in the states. the main problem is unrestricted egotism.
The kind of mass self interest that has gone way beyond housing and feeding yourself and been ramped up into a nation of endless greed. as we see this drive to go way beyond what the individual needs in order to fulfill its survival, has been promoted by the culture and media, in order to generate massive profits for the unrestricted Capitalist machine. Things such as the housing bubble and subsequent debt crisis, were brought about from greed in the individual and in all walks of life, from the bottom to the top.
This culture of greed is almost entirely the product of the USA, by design, even amongst capitalist models, like all of Europe, no other country has pursued greed as the ultimate model, well not until about 10 years ago, when other countries decided, if the states can get away with living on credit cards, so will we Eg Ireland and Greece. This is because any other country knew unrestricted greed leads to collapse of the system.
Countries everywhere know this, yet many recently adopted the USA's model of unrestricted greed and individual self interest because the real belief was the USA was getting away with having the rest of the world pay for its free lunch. So other countries began to copy it, thinking we should also have such wealth as long as the developing world make our cheap TV's etc and international banks loan us the money we can too party and forget about tomorrow because our generation isnt the one paying it all back.
The system I propose, is based on the fact that people in the west are now so indoctrinated in self interest, it would be unrealistic to try to convert them to a different mind set, even though everybody now knows, greed leads to collapse.
So my idea, it to allow people to pursue self interest, with no income tax. Some people would rise to dominate different sectors of business, but most would be satisfied to have a decent comfortable standard of living. Not everyone wants to be a billionaire.
If socialist principals were also implemented, such as state owned property, it would mean that people could not buy up large parts of the property market or artificially inflate the cost of housing. Something that should be the right of ever person, a home to live in.
What I would suggest is a land based system, where individuals are granted a large building plot with a basic home on it, No multistory tower blocks. people would then be allowed to build whatever house they wanted on the state owned plot. The house would then be in the possession of the tenant for as long as they lived or as long as they chose to live there. After the house has been vacated it goes back into the hands of the state.
Housing and land would need to be state owned due to what happens when it isnt. Such as housing bubbles, and what we have in the UK, a generation of people who cant afford a home and instead pay all their income to landlords, keeping them in perpetual poverty and substandard housing conditions.
Particularly desirable areas would be designated to people who work in those areas.
My final idea to boost government revenue, would be to tax all money that leaves the country.
So if a citizen wishes to emigrate with a fortune 30% of the money would be taxed as an exit tax. I think 30% is a fair figure, not too as to much discourage emigration and not to less to make it pointless.

Corporations have too much negative influence over the world, the rich choose who runs it. the environment is getting destroyed continually in pursuit of profits and noting else, and the mentality is the same. No care for the future just today.

As corporations are here to stay, I say let them reap profits but also let them have zero influence of the media and politics. in other words, allow the market to choose the very best products instead of the very best marketed products. we would then have fast healthy food instead of junk food etc etc etc. So the advertising industry needs to go, as it is a propaganda machine designed only for the purpose of profit and at the expense of everything else, including the promotion of greed and brainwashing people to buy things because they are brightly colored or have a sexy woman beside them. This type of capitalism generates profit and greed and it also generates, obesity, lack of innovation, badly designed products and a stagnant lowest denominator culture. Where the biggest selling art for is gangster culture.

Originally posted by Master_007
"Possible solution to Global meltdown"

Forget possible solution because we already have two solutions that has been tried and tested.

China is not going bust and they hang bankers that commit large scale fraud.

Number two solution is to follow Iceland and throw the bankers in jail and to forgive all debt.

We had laws to hold the bankers in check but they bribed the politicians to remove these laws as they are writing millions more for everyone else or the police and judges fail to enforce or police the few laws remaining.

Anyone thinking they are going to get the 401k carrot needs only look in the mirrow to see a fool.

I partly agree. but as long as money is introduced to state positions like judges there will be corruption. I think a better solution to that particular issue, is to make the role of judges and other powerful positions be low paid, second jobs. there fore the only people who would chose to take those positions would be either already wealthy or unconcerned about money.

We already tax corporations, so for this to work, the 'donations' received would have to match or exceed the current total of our income tax and import tax, and any other tax you want to abolish. That's asking a lot. Currency is also relative, so if your average Joe has massive amounts of expendable income, the products and services they purchase will also increase in cost, resulting in the economy leveling out, only at a different level. If everyone has loads of cash, no-one has loads of cash... you understand?

Originally posted by splitlevel
in other words, allow the market to choose the very best products instead of the very best marketed products.

Is this not what the internet is doing?

Originally posted by Faulks
We already tax corporations, so for this to work, the 'donations' received would have to match or exceed the current total of our income tax and import tax, and any other tax you want to abolish. That's asking a lot. Currency is also relative, so if your average Joe has massive amounts of expendable income, the products and services they purchase will also increase in cost, resulting in the economy leveling out, only at a different level. If everyone has loads of cash, no-one has loads of cash... you understand?

Yes I understand, if everyone had loads of cash, goods and services go up in price, but I already said scrap tax on imported goods, so that would mean you could buy every thing you need to live comfortably.
As for services. Service charges would be high. This would make sure you would still have to work in order to buy services. However most services are not essential. Only hospitals and things such as, are essential services. The cost of these essential services is paid for by the rich and by corporate tax.
Any other service is paid for by the consumer. this would mean the economy is basically a service based economy, but I would make sure a large part of the economy returned to manufacturing.
The service industry model is already the model we have in the UK for the last 20 years or more, as all the factories and manufacturing jobs were sent overseas.
The problem with the current service based economy model, is that people do not have enough expendable income to buy lots of services. Another problem is that there simply are not enough service jobs to employ everybody. A big part of the current service industry model, was the banking sector and the stock market selling business services and banking services internationally and as we see , this model is wide open to corruption of self interest and collapse.
So part of the economy can be service based however a huge chunk of it needs to be manufacturing based. manufacturing high end, high quality goods and the luxury market. Germany is good at this , as even the Chinese recognize Mercedes as a superior quality car, as most of the communist party drive them or BMW's.

Originally posted by Faulks

Originally posted by splitlevel
in other words, allow the market to choose the very best products instead of the very best marketed products.

Is this not what the internet is doing?

Well, the billionaires who call the shots and prop up whatever politician they wish to use as a puppet, won't agree with you on this point. The car you drive still runs on oil products, for instance. So not much choice in that.