Afghanistan

I was recently engaged in a thread regarding the behaviors of US Servicemen in Afganistan, specifically what they had done to the body of a suicide bomber. The link is HERE.

My belief was that the reason for the post was to engage in argument regarding the morality of the actions of those service members.

Of course, the discussion took on a life of it's own and morphed into multiple conversations relating to the context of the war, the rationality of the war, the reasons for the war, etc. Peppered with comments relating to whether the acts of the servicemen were immoral or not. In my view, some were rational, some were irrational.

But listening to some of the posters really made me think about some things. Three points in particular.

Point 1 - Why are we in Afghanistan and do we need to remain there?

A - I believe that this country went to war in Afghanistan because mostly Saudi Arabian nationals operating under the banner of Al Queda committed an act of terrorism against the United States.

B - I believe those Saudi Arabians and their cohorts were trained by Al Qeada in Afghanistan.

C - I believe the Taliban were the authority in that country and that they were working in collusion with Al Qeada and also providing them safe haven in that country.

D - I believe the Taliban are a virulent form of Islamic extremism, as virulent as Al Qeada, and are completely destructive to the citizens of that country and should be opposed at all costs.

E - I believe that we have two too many Islamic nation states already that fund, train, and otherwise support terrorism against this country ... carrying the flags of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

F - I believe we should not allow the Taliban to return to power in Afghanistan.

Point 2 - There is no dignity in War.

A - I believe these acts by individual soldiers are going to happen and no one can stop it from happening.

B - I believe there is nothing new in this behavior. It has been going on for as long as men have been killing each other.

C - I believe that these folks should be assessed to determine whether they are psychopaths, are under too much stress, or were just following the herd mentality.

D - I believe that the UCMJ should be utilized as appropriate.

E - I believe no one should judge them except their PEERS, their peers being other combat soldiers serving in the same theatre of operations. Not you, not me, their peers.

F - I believe that if treatment is required, they should be given treatment and every attempt should be made to reintegrate these folks back into society. Unless, of course, one or all are truly psychopathic.

Whether in the civilian world or the military world, people are people. And we all have problems. And no one knows where the breaking point lies, or even the bending point.

Whether in the civilian world or the military world, a few will act nobly, with concious, and dignity. Others will not. They will cheat, lie, steal, and exhibit either stable or unstable behavior. It doesn't matter if they are military or civilian, the same behaviors are present.

The difference is in the stressors. Civilians have stressors with their everyday life, thats true. And military personnel have those same stressors ... PLUS, someone is trying to kill them, or they are trying to kill someone ... EVERY DAY.

When you think about this, do you really expect that some people who, under normal circumstances, might exhibit slightly abnormal behavior .... begin to exhibit bizzare behavior? Or just break?

Are we to exhibit no mercy for the human condition. No empathy?

Have you taken a good look at your Emergency Department Doctors or Nurses lately? They see horrible things everyday as well, and they grow a hardshell. Some people think they are callous, they are not. They are just attempting to save their own humanity. And do you believe that they don't deal with it in unhealthy or bizzare methods?

Of course, others do not believe as I believe.

I was wondering if someone could provide compelling information that would cause me to change my beliefs regarding the first two topics?

Point 3 - Compare and Contrast

Now, I am not really into the eye for an eye routine ... as Ghandi said, "It only makes the whole world blind".

But, I am for purchasing a level playing field. So, I thought I would, as a reminder, start posting some of the little things that the Arab/Muslim extremists have been perpetrating on the western world for the past thirty plus years ... in no particular order.

Lets start with my good friend here who died with dignity,

Robert Dean Stetham

It seems back in 1985, Bob was on a plane flying home from Athens when something terrible occured. Read on.

Birth: Nov. 17, 1961
Death: Jun. 15, 1985

United States Navy Sailor, Murder Victim.

While flying home from Athens, Greece, Lebanese terrorists hijacked his airplane, Trans World Airlines Flight 847, and he was murdered solely because he was an American sailor. His body was dumped on the tarmac below the airplane and left there for several hours before the terrorists allowed authorities to remove it.

On the return flight, TWA 847, members of the Lebanese terrorist organization Hezbollah hijacked the flight and forced it to fly to Algiers, where they demanded the release of 435 Arab prisoners held by Israel. When their demands were not met, they forced the airplane to fly to Beirut, Lebanon. Seizing the passengers' passports, the terrorists discovered several American sailors aboard the plane. They singled out Stetham and beat him senselessly for several hours, attempting to break his will. Infuriated by his unwavering inner strength and his calm under the punishment, the hijackers then executed him and dumped his body on the ground. As they killed him with a pistol shot to the head, his last words were a prayer to God for strength. His face and body was so badly mangled that he could only be identified by his fingerprints ...

For 17 days, the hijackers kept the passengers hostage, before giving in and releasing them.

"For heroic achievement on 14 June 1985 while assigned to Detachment NM-85 of Underwater Construction Team One, deployed to the Naval Communications Station Nea Makri, Greece.Petty Officer Stethem displayed exceptional valor and professional integrity while a hostage of militant Shiite hijackers of TWA Flight 847 at Athens International Airport, Algiers, Algeria, and at Beirut, Lebanon. Exhibiting physical, moral, and emotional courage beyond extraordinary limits, Petty Officer Stetham endured a senseless and brutal beating at the hands of his fanatical captors. He drew upon an unwavering inner strength and absorbed the punishment. The hijackers were infuriated by his refusal to succumb, a symbol to them of the strength of the United States of America, and in their cowardly desperation, shot him to death. Petty Officer Stetham's courage, steadfast determination, and loyal devotion to duty reflected great credit upon himself and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. Signed by John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy."

Robert Dean Stetham - Victim of Arab/Muslim Violence

I agree with much you state but there is one thing....we can't label all Muslims as if they were all Terrorists and although there are many in the Middle East who cheer if some U.S. Soldiers get killed...there are many more who would LOVE to move to the U.S. and be able to live without fear and have Freedom...especially many Families with Female Daughters.

No matter what a person may say that the U.S. is imperialistic or evil...the plain fact is...for some Middle Eastern Nations...to be a Woman is like living in Hell. Examples of burrial of a woman up to her neck in the ground and STONED TO DEATH with her family members...even her Father or Husband traditionally casting the first stone...all because this woman was RAPED and is accused of INFIDEITY and for the Husband and Families Honor to be restored...they Kill her in a most Brutal and Sick way.

Even more moderate states still force their women to wear viels or burkas and are not allowed to drive or even go shopping without a Male Family member present.

No matter how anyone tries to Justify this...they cannot! They ignor things like this yet make disparaging statements about the U.S. which is the only entity in the World which has prevented a WWIII from breaking out.
Yes we seem to be at war alot and we have made mistakes...but without the U.S. and its ability to project Military power on a Global Scale...there would be total Chaos. The Europeans never take care of problems in their own back yard and we end up playing Police Men. Well...I would love to see what would happen if the U.S. went isolationist again! We could do it. But then again...the last time we did that WWII broke out. I would love to hear one person tell me what other country would step up and handle the role the U.S. now does.
Split Infinity

reply to post by Another10Pin


To be honest I was willing to agree with the vast majority of points you made....then I read the last part.

So, I thought I would, as a reminder, start posting some of the little things that the Arab/Muslim extremists have been perpetrating on the western world for the past thirty plus years ... in no particular order.

I can post some of the little things the United States have been perpetrating on the world for the past 65 plus years.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I had thought this way for a long time, that we can't paint all Muslims with the same brush. But as time has passed, I find this proposition more and more difficult to embrace. As a matter of fact, I don't think that I believe it anymore. I think I have come to believe that even if not all Arab/Muslims are terrorists, then most Arab/Muslims, at the very least, tacitly support them.

As I previously stated, I have been watching Arab/Islamic extremists blowing things up for over thirty years now. It's getting old. These folks seem to have a problem with everything for which the West stands.

In the 1990's, I recall watching a news program that was showing Saudi Arabian state run television holding a telethon to raise funds for Al Qeada - what the hell was that? When the Twin Towers went down, I saw news reports of Arabs dancing and partying in celebration - what the hell was that? I personally know of an Arab/Muslim doctor, in this country, who also was happy about the attack on the WTC - what the hell was that?

And this also relates to your statment regarding that Arab/Muslims who want to move to this country without fear and to have freedom. Then why was this doctor, who moved to this county, celebrating the attack on 911?

Help me to understand this.

Maybe there really are Arab/Mulims who want to move here to escape the tyranny of Islam. But if they do, they should leave Islam on the front door step. If they are living if fear and oppression in their own country because of Islamic religious laws, leave the religion. But they don't. Which leaves the door open to these other yahoo's that come to this country with only a desire to destroy it or enforce their own Islamic legal system. And if there are moderate Arab/Muslims in any large numbers who want to disavow themselves from radicalism, but do not want to disavow themselves from that religion, why don't they start taking control of their own countries?

No, I am afraid to say that that argument no longer holds any value to me.

As far as the women who want to come here, who can blame them? They are victimized and dehumanized on a daily basis - by their own religion. I say bring them over - but only if they disavow that same religion that is terrorizing them. If they can actually get out of a country in which the major religious institution is victimizing and murdering them, why on earth do they want to hold on to it?

Some people say it is a beautiful religion. What is so beautiful about it?

These arguments ... there are many moderate muslims, they just want to come here to escape Islamic or governmental tyranny, true Islam is not like what you see in the middle eastern countries or what is exibited by the extremists, etc.

They just don't even appear on my radar any more. They are invalid arguments.

If those are not true aspects of the Islamic religion (Dehuminizing and killing their women, decapitations, forced amputations, killing anyone who doesn't believe in Islam, etc), then what is?

If there are so many of these so called moderate Muslims, how come they can't take control of even one of the countries where Islam is the dominant life force?

I say it's because there is not such animal as a moderate Muslim, and even if there are, they are so few in number that they are inconsequential.

No, keep that religion out of my country, and stop it from spreading at every corner.

That religion is worse than communism, facism, nazism, catholicism, etc.

It is the most dangerous institutionalized force on the planet.

With the exception of the filthy rich capitalist pigs.

reply to post by Kram09


There is no doubt in my mind that you can. And if it relates to the topic at hand, please do and lets discuss it.

ETA: Before this goes somewhere I really don't want it to go, let me clarify the last point in my post. I was hesitant to post it, particularly the way that I had worded it. But I did it anyway because, as the point header states, it is a way to compare and contrast the incidents of dehumanization and violence that each side has committed. I am not saying our # don't stink, it does. But I am also saying don't forget was has been done in the past, and that their # stinks as bad as ours.

reply to post by Another10Pin


Don't worry, I don't want to derail your thread and I also don't want to get into petty arguments like a lot of threads descend into.

reply to post by Kram09


No worries. I enjoy debates, but not of the type I sometimes find on this site. Also, a train has to be moving for a derailment to occur, yes?

reply to post by Another10Pin

It will take time but the Middle East has a bright future. One country in particular...JORDAN. The current King of Jordan was educated in my state...Mass. The now dead former King of Jordan married an American Movie Star who made sure her children were schooled in the United States.

Now that the Son of this Dead King and American Actress has taken the reigns...Jordan has become an even greater State of Moderate Islamic Beliefs and is a major U.S. Ally.

I see the same happening in Egypt, Lybia...etc. Iran will very soon be the next Progressive...although not Arab...they are formerly Persian...State in the Region. Despite all the current talk of WAR and Irans Hardcore Old Guard Religious Leadership with their little Puppet of a President who was Elected by Fraud...Iran has a population that has over 70% of it's people UNDER the age of 30 Years old. 90% of Irans population is Pro-Democracy. It is but a matter between now 11 and 17 months that the Pro-Democracy Movement will take over Leadership from the crumbling control of Extremists. The same thing can almost be said about Syria...although more time may be required since Syria has shown a willingness to overtly KILL any who dissent.

Young, Computer Savy Muslims...who know how to get around the Iranian Government WEB filters with everything from Smart Phones to Laptops and Tablets...are the Future of the Middle East. They desire Freedom...yet they have to get through Tanks and Guns...since most Soldiers are of the same age...the Military will probably not carry through with any orders to kill their own...although in Syria...the Military is of an upper class and is controlled by Damascus. But...I have been there and have Faith this will eventually occur all across the Middle East. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Hey SI. Thanks for keeping me on my toes here. BTW, my beliefs can be altered if substantiated information can be presented or a more reasonable argument can be proposed that I can embrace.

It will take time but the Middle East has a bright future. One country in particular...JORDAN. The current King of Jordan was educated in my state...Mass. The now dead former King of Jordan married an American Movie Star who made sure her children were schooled in the United States

I think you are right in that Jordan is a more moderate Arab state ... and it may have a future as such. The problem that I see is that it does not really have a representative type of government at the helm. If the people were to decide on a government, what would be the result? I am not sure.

Now that the Son of this Dead King and American Actress has taken the reigns...Jordan has become an even greater State of Moderate Islamic Beliefs and is a major U.S. Ally.

I know that they were and have been very supportive regarding U.S. Military operations in the Middle East, and in particular, Iraq. What is their purpose or reason for cooperation? I am unsure.

I see the same happening in Egypt, Lybia...etc. Iran will very soon be the next Progressive...although not Arab...they are formerly Persian...State in the Region. Despite all the current talk of WAR and Irans Hardcore Old Guard Religious Leadership with their little Puppet of a President who was Elected by Fraud...Iran has a population that has over 70% of it's people UNDER the age of 30 Years old. 90% of Irans population is Pro-Democracy. It is but a matter between now 11 and 17 months that the Pro-Democracy Movement will take over Leadership from the crumbling control of Extremists. The same thing can almost be said about Syria...although more time may be required since Syria has shown a willingness to overtly KILL any who dissent.

Multiple issues.

Egypt - Although part of the Arab Spring, I still forsee major hurdles here that may not be able to be overcome. First, the government is still in the hands of the military, and they do not appear to be willing to relinquish or share power at this point. Second, the Islamic Brotherhood has made major inroads into the Egyptian society, and they are not moderates. Third, I just heard that Egypt has about two to three months of money to cover their operating budget. There are projections of food shortages. How will this affect the politics?

Libya - A nightmare of a scenario. And the more I am finding out about it, the less I believe that any form of representative government will take hold there. I think we are looking at another dictatorship or radical form of Islamic government. It's a coin toss.

Iran - I have always had hopes for Iran. Not only because of their high percentage of youth, but also because even though they are Islamic, they seem to embrace their Persian heritage to the same degree. Only time will tell if they can somehow institute a representative government.

Syria - Another nightmare scenario. I suspect that, when the dust settles, there will be no change due to the perspective of the Russians and Chinese.

Young, Computer Savy Muslims...who know how to get around the Iranian Government WEB filters with everything from Smart Phones to Laptops and Tablets...are the Future of the Middle East. They desire Freedom...yet they have to get through Tanks and Guns...since most Soldiers are of the same age...the Military will probably not carry through with any orders to kill their own...although in Syria...the Military is of an upper class and is controlled by Damascus. But...I have been there and have Faith this will eventually occur all across the Middle East. Split Infinity

I hope you are right. I really do. And I hope that representative governments are established in these nations, and that the people are given rights to self-determination. This is a basic human right.

The problem as I see it are three-fold:

1. Entrenched, oppressive, cold-war era dictatorships that do not want to leave.
2. Islamic extremists either in control or waiting in the wings.
3. Continued interference from Western Countries, Russia, and now China.

One more thing. As is apparent, I am not fond of Arab/Islamic extremists. But I am not fond of any form of polarized extremism. I would despise the KKK just as much, as an example.

And I will readily admit that this problem (Arab/Muslim extremism) was primarily caused by external forces. Which is why I was initially concerned about point 3 of my thread. But I put it there for a specific reason.

As far as my opinion reagrding the external forces ... specifically, cold-war era problems instigated by Isreal, the US, the USSR, other European countries ... and now China. The area is a disaster.

point 1 wouldn't be any of those, but rather for the trillion dollars in resources and a geo-political stronghold to base influence from, as well as a consistent propaganda network and training ground for troops so when the changeover back to symetric warfare occurs when China enters the battlefield we'll be semi ready.

reply to post by Another10Pin
When the focus becomes more on questionable actions made by a few soldiers rather than our fight against a terrorist organization, the war has become lost.
When we're discussing financial deals and not the brutal ideology that has enslaved generations of people, the war has been lost.
When we're more focused on an election campaign, secret service agents playing with hookers, government waste, than the lives of american military service men and women fighting in a foreign country, the war has been lost.

It's time to come home.

Originally posted by yourmaker
point 1 wouldn't be any of those, but rather for the trillion dollars in resources and a geo-political stronghold to base influence from, as well as a consistent propaganda network and training ground for troops so when the changeover back to symetric warfare occurs when China enters the battlefield we'll be semi ready.

After I had posted this, I regretted it almost immediately ... for a variety of reasons. One being that because even though this is what I see, I also know that there is always a different perspective - and I don't know that shape or form of the perspective. It's like from soldier, to platoon commander, to company comander, to battalion commander, etc. I will consider your proposal, as it has validity.

reply to post by yourmaker

China is not a threat in any way to the United States. There is virtually a 99.99999% Chance that there will never be a war between China and the United States in this Century.
Reasons?
1. U.S. Military is VASTLY SUPERIOR to anything the Chinese have and Nuclear ICMB's influence on politics have been drasticly mitigated and after all U.S. Carriers and Aegis Cruisers as well as Many Mobile LandVersion are active...2 Land stationed FEL's....Free Electron Lasers already exist...when this system is fully installed and even NOW China is FULLY AWARE of the HUGE TECH. LEAP made by the U.S. in a New Compact Long Burning Powerful...SOLID FUEL as well as an Integrated Multiple Super Computer driven Target and Aquisitioning system that turned a Aegis Cruiser Standard SM-3 Antiaircraft Missle into the BEST IN THE WORLD...ACCURATE TO WITHIN INCHES...ABM...ANTI-SATELLITE WEAPON...ANTI-CARRIER KILLER MISSLE SYSTEM and more. A Re-worked SM-3 blew up a Satellite in orbit traveling at about 18 to19 thousand mph. and not only did it hit it but hit it perfectly accurate to blow up a HYDRAZINE FUEL TANK which is DEADLY TOXIC and was the reason...or EXCUSE for this test. The Super Computing Ability to do this is OFF THE CHART.

BIG REASON #2...If China ever pissed of the U.S. and say tried to take back Taiwan...the U.S. would not only Blow the Chinese out of the Water and destroy their Airforce...which is very large...but we would simply stop shipments of buying goods from China and stop all payments of Loans that China has invested in the U.S.

The U.S. is Chinas #1 Customer and trading partner...as well as of all the places the Chinese could have invested their money...they chose the U.S. due to stability. You do NOT go to WAR with your BEST CUSTOMER WHO OWES YOU MONEY AND CAN BEAT THE S#!% OUT OF YOU! Split Infinity

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Another10Pin

 

When the focus becomes more on questionable actions made by a few soldiers rather than our fight against a terrorist organization, the war has become lost.
When we're discussing financial deals and not the brutal ideology that has enslaved generations of people, the war has been lost.
When we're more focused on an election campaign, secret service agents playing with hookers, government waste, than the lives of american military service men and women fighting in a foreign country, the war has been lost.

It's time to come home.

Again, I guess it comes down to perceptions and beliefs. I would ask why is the American media focusing on these things? Why do they jump from one subject matter to the other without a proper discussion or debate? Is this another lost war? Another Vietnam? Communism eventually burned itself out. Will Arab/Muslim extremism? Is this a clash of cultures without end?

Originally posted by Another10Pin

Again, I guess it comes down to perceptions and beliefs. I would ask why is the American media focusing on these things? Why do they jump from one subject matter to the other without a proper discussion or debate? Is this another lost war? Another Vietnam? Communism eventually burned itself out. Will Arab/Muslim extremism? Is this a clash of cultures without end?

The american media focuses on the trivial because it's protecting Obama. Instead of discussing the war, it changes the narritive to discuss the actions taking place within the war and not the root cause of why we're there.
It won't be another Vietnam until a conservative becomes president.

reply to post by Another10Pin

I agree that even though Jordan is a Progressive Muslim Country and Ally of the U.S....it is still not a Democracy thus eventually there will be issues.
Saudi Arabia...although having a population that is appeased with Oil Money....it is still a Kingdom where there is little rights for Women and Sexual Frustrated Young Men who cannot blow off steam as Alchohol is illegal as well as Porn or if you want sex you need to be Married and to get married you need money...so a bunch of 18 years old poor Saudi Kids get confronted by a Man who runs a Madrassa...a Islamic School that teaches Islamic Extremizm and these young Virgins frustrated are fed...given a place to stay and taught ...well if you drive this bomb laden truck into a building you will die and become a Martyr and go to Paradise with 50 or 100 Virgins waiting to please you....so they do it have nothing to loose.

The Damn Saudi Government plays both sides...one side being a U.S. Ally and fighting Terorists and the other side...appeasing their own internal extremist groups by paying the money to Create Madrassas.

THEY...will be in DEEP TROUBLE one day. Split Infinity

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by Another10Pin

Again, I guess it comes down to perceptions and beliefs. I would ask why is the American media focusing on these things? Why do they jump from one subject matter to the other without a proper discussion or debate? Is this another lost war? Another Vietnam? Communism eventually burned itself out. Will Arab/Muslim extremism? Is this a clash of cultures without end?

The american media focuses on the trivial because it's protecting Obama. Instead of discussing the war, it changes the narritive to discuss the actions taking place within the war and not the root cause of why we're there.
It won't be another Vietnam until a conservative becomes president.

This is probably where I come to have a problem.

I don't know that I believe that there is real change in policy when either the liberals or the conservatives are in control of the legislative or executive branch of government. There might be an alteration in tactics, but not policy.

Es an example, the transition between Bush and Obama related to the approach to Al Queda (or WOT). Obama maintained the policies that began under Bush, and actually strengthened those policies, or so it seems to me. Although, I must admit, initially I didn't believe that we would ever leave Iraq - OIL. But we have.

But I agree with you about the media changing the narrative of the war. It amazes me that there are servicemen dying regularly in Afghanistan, we are still there after 10 years, and the media only covers it in the most cursory way, unless of course there are a couple of soldiers who's behavior is out of sorts and there are pictures of it.

As a kid, the Vietnam War was on the news EVERY night. This instigates national debate, and rightly it should.

Originally posted by Another10Pin

Originally posted by yourmaker
point 1 wouldn't be any of those, but rather for the trillion dollars in resources and a geo-political stronghold to base influence from, as well as a consistent propaganda network and training ground for troops so when the changeover back to symetric warfare occurs when China enters the battlefield we'll be semi ready.

After I had posted this, I regretted it almost immediately ... for a variety of reasons. One being that because even though this is what I see, I also know that there is always a different perspective - and I don't know that shape or form of the perspective. It's like from soldier, to platoon commander, to company comander, to battalion commander, etc. I will consider your proposal, as it has validity.

Ok, I slept on it. I don't think I agree with you on this.

First, regarding the natural resources, so what? What are we going to do with them? Neither the Afghani's nor the Taliban are going to allow any western corporation to remain there and extract those resources. We would have to maintain a military presence there forever and that just isn't going to happen.

Second, geo-political stronghold. The only thing we are influencing right now is anger directected at us by parts of the Afghani and Pakinstani populations. Any allies we might have had have either left, or are wanting to leave. We don't need Afghanistan to propogate propoganda.

Third, China. This just doesn't hold up for me. Afghanistan is land locked and we have no real friendlies in site. I don't know how we are maintaining a supply line, but I would imagine it is tenuous at best. No, we are a seafaring people and for international military operations, that is what we do best. Being land-locked in Afghanistan, particularly against the Chinese, is like saying, "Hey, come over here and kill a bunch of us at little to no cost".

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Another10Pin

 

I agree that even though Jordan is a Progressive Muslim Country and Ally of the U.S....it is still not a Democracy thus eventually there will be issues.
Saudi Arabia...although having a population that is appeased with Oil Money....it is still a Kingdom where there is little rights for Women and Sexual Frustrated Young Men who cannot blow off steam as Alchohol is illegal as well as Porn or if you want sex you need to be Married and to get married you need money...so a bunch of 18 years old poor Saudi Kids get confronted by a Man who runs a Madrassa...a Islamic School that teaches Islamic Extremizm and these young Virgins frustrated are fed...given a place to stay and taught ...well if you drive this bomb laden truck into a building you will die and become a Martyr and go to Paradise with 50 or 100 Virgins waiting to please you....so they do it have nothing to loose.

The Damn Saudi Government plays both sides...one side being a U.S. Ally and fighting Terorists and the other side...appeasing their own internal extremist groups by paying the money to Create Madrassas.

THEY...will be in DEEP TROUBLE one day. Split Infinity

The Saudi's are currently on the same level as the Iranians.