A fog of drugs and war

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by mee30
reply to post by usmc0311

 

Can i just ask you something? Did you not know that you were going in and attacking another country that had done nothing to your own? Please I don't want to come across as though I'm attacking you. I just genuinely want to understand why soldiers go to a war most other people know is unjustified and immoral.

Couldn't you have just told them to stick it? Couldn't you of refused?

I do want to commend you for doing the right thing now though and I'm glad you got off the drugs and are feeling better for it.

Please forgive me for interjecting my own personal answer, as I know you meant to ask another member.

Some people don't know, or have never experienced this; other refute it as irrelevant; but their is such a thing as a "warrior culture" and frankly, those who have lived it understand that it is not the serviceman's place to question whether a military deployment is, or is not "just."

This is a powerful generalization, and the more egregious the circumstances, the more likely it is that there will be some form of resistance from within. But disobeying an order to go into an area and securing it; or defending a position and holding it is not something that command 'justifies' to the soldiers themselves.

Sure, you can always tell them no...but those who do so are not only breaking their promise, their word, that they will serve obediently and loyally; they are also endangering all the other comrades in arms who depend on them to do as they are told. Also they are breaking the law. You had best me more than casual about any decision you make to disobey the orders you are given. It's quite a dishonor... and worse still, the media loves to eviscerate such people who - rightly or not - the military tells them are criminally disobedient. This is why the military has it's own judicial system - it is not swayed by public opinion, political theater, or media theatrics - again this is a generalization.

For all rules there are exceptions. But generally speaking, no one is interested if someone within the ranks of the troops objects to their orders.... theirs is to comply... not make policy.

Commissioned officers have it a little better... at least they can resign their commission (quit)... enlisted folks just get to go to jail... or worse.

edit on 9-4-2012 by Maxmars because: (no reason given)

Bull crap! When you enlist, you take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, *then* you swear to obey the President. Going to war without a declaration of war from the Congress is breaking that oath. If the Congress declared war, and then a soldier believed said war to be immoral, your stance would have some logical foundation. As it stands, our President, and all who engage in these illegal, unconstitutional wars of senseless aggression, are domestic enemies of the constitution. They deserve no pity, only enough medication to numb them from the dishonorable atrocities that they commit under the cloak of, "just following orders". The only thing that surprises me about the statistics contained in the OP is that there aren't more troops in need of getting doped up enough to forget about their shame.

soldiers point of view

Let me give you a little scenario.

Your 19.
You were told two years ago that your Aunt died due to a couple of Islamic extremists.
You want to go to college, but can't afford it.
You've got no place to go as you live in your car and sometimes sleep at work.
Yeah a war in Afghaistan is on, but a degree, a bed and you get a chance to avenge your Aunt.
So sure you join up.
Six months later you find yourself on a plane to Iraq, not Afghanistan.
You've been told they have weapons of mass destruction and the intent to use them.
Two weeks later in the completely alien country of Kuwait.
You find yourself woke up in the middle of the night.
You grab your weapon having NEVER have pointed it another human before.
The helicopter you were just piled into is hot, smells like gas and is loud.
Slowly off in the distance you see a HUGE fire and the next thing you know your right over it.
Your Squad leader begins yelling at everyone as suddenly the crew chief begins spraying rounds into the fire below.
Your a hundred feet in the air getting ready to slide down a rope into a fire carrying 60+ pounds of gear.
As you slide down the rope the very first zings and pops begin and it takes you a second to realize, I'm being shot at.
Suddenly the wind shifts and the smoke from the fire blows your way.
It's not normal smoke though, it's thick, black oil smoke.
And it's your first day in Iraq.

You can't see or smell let alone breath well. Your being shot at and your sliding down a rope from a perfectly sound aircraft into a burning oil field. I'm not even going to try and explain what the fire fight was like, let alone in a burning oil field with MLRS artillery coming down around you.

All I have to say is...

Want a Xanax, Private?

reply to post by thesungod

Really viceral story, if you wrote a book about what else happened that day id probally pay to read it.

reply to post by thesungod


It was such a good post! Thank you.

Now, I think the issue of the blame of soldiers is delicate. Once a soldier is into the army, he cannot leave easily without destroying his own future, maybe go to jail for insubordination. So the choices are limited. People cannot back out once they start down the road. And the pressures you described are real.

Maybe you can say "so what, moral duty is more important." but unless you have been in the position, its not so easy to say. I have never been in the position so I cannot judge the soldier's right and wrong so clearly.

If you hate the war its more productive to focus on blaming people closer than the top than the soldiers, anyway.
.

Originally posted by Q:1984A:1776

Bull crap! When you enlist, you take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, *then* you swear to obey the President. Going to war without a declaration of war from the Congress is breaking that oath. If the Congress declared war, and then a soldier believed said war to be immoral, your stance would have some logical foundation. As it stands, our President, and all who engage in these illegal, unconstitutional wars of senseless aggression, are domestic enemies of the constitution. They deserve no pity, only enough medication to numb them from the dishonorable atrocities that they commit under the cloak of, "just following orders". The only thing that surprises me about the statistics contained in the OP is that there aren't more troops in need of getting doped up enough to forget about their shame.

Evidently, you are convinced that the world according to TV is real. I will obviously not be the one to move you from that position.

You may think that the order in which the oath is worded makes some kind of difference in combat. I suggest you think again.

As for me, and those along with me being enemies of the Constitution; I say bring on the charges. I never committed nor participated in any atrocity. The publicists of the world make certain that you are suitably indoctrinated into the atrocities committed by soldiers. Good luck with them being your bull weather on the way the world works.

I am in no way shamed by my service. And frankly, I find the accusation - or presumption that I should be - offensive. But the defect is not mine. And you are free to tell the world about the righteous indignation you express regarding the military... Just as I am free to consider it "bull crap." I completely disagree that the 'declared' state of war or otherwise makes a difference to someone trying to avoid mortar shrapnel, or sniper fire.

I do appreciate your mention of the Commander in Chief (although you failed to mention the Senate.) For the war to end (or never start) was always within their grasp... they just wanted even more 'trickle down' for their posterity... and business is booming!

But commerce isn't blamed. Commercial agendas are evidently sacrosanct. It's all about the soldiers...

I suggest that we refrain from addressing each other further... I have taken as many insults as I am inclined to regarding my position... conflict, struggle, war itself always takes a human toll; and no one wants to be the root of pain in others... that Big Pharma has convinced the world that solutions are all chemical is the crime in this story... not how you profess the military should step outside its mandate to effect policy change.

reply to post by Q:1984A:1776

The only thing that surprises me about the statistics contained in the OP is that there aren't more troops in need of getting doped up enough to forget about their shame.

I feel no shame it what I did. I may not be happy about it but I sure don't feel shame. I never did anything illegal or completely immoral. I always treated people with respect and recieved respect in return. I also agree with Maxmars again. Bring on the charges, the men who fight are not the same ones who make the desicions so it would not effect those who were honorable, and always strove to do the right thing even when in a bad situation.

reply to post by thesungod


Thank you for your service.. for what it's worth.