They actually don't want your money, your time or you.

Because nothing of this actually exists, before feeling offended let me explain how simple our reality is, and how we are misunderstanding the whole history.

I ofter read threads like this www.abovetopsecret.com... the whole idea of many theories is constructed upon the assumption that they want YOUR money, I can deconstruct this idea by appointing that they already have all the money they could possible have by dominating the economy and the perception of monetary value.

Then you can say that the power is not monolithic and is fragmented in several groups fighting and some of them perhaps not controlling the economy could use some other kind of power (akin scientific knowledge to slave the population) to acquire large sum of money.

Nothing relates truly within the reality.

All things are totally empty of any defining essence. Consequently all things have no fixed identity and are are in a state of impermanence (always changing). Not only are all things constantly changing, but if we analyze any phenomenon in enough detail we come to the conclusion that it is ultimately unfindable, and exists purely by definitions in terms of other things - and one of those other things is always the mind (that in an individual is product of the current society, the dna or even the soul if you believe in one) which generates those definitions.

The conclusion that all things are empty of inherent existence and appear only in dependence on our minds is not an obvious truth.

But once you think enough in this problem you can see that the dualism perpetrated by us vs they, TPTB vs population is an illusion.

Theres no magic no power, only ignorance that cannot compute the causes and conditions that create the illusion that something exists thus giving to the phenomenon an existence apart, now apply this to human beings, relation between human beings, the apparent existence of material things, laws, or even god.

The cause of war and disarrangement is ignorance, both sides create a perception of reality in their minds, they could apparently mismatch or perfectly relate in the current situation, but once the circumstances or the causes and conditions for that sentiment or agreement ceases created illusion changes and it's not what you thought it to be and now you want to change it, get away or destroy it.

That's a pretty deep way of looking at it. Effective though. I guess I never went that far. In my mind, money is the driving force behind everything. It's why we work, it dictates our standard of living, it brings us together as well as divides us. But all this is closer to the surface than what you were talking about. I'm not really in a deep mood right now so I think I'll stop here.

What you said makes sense though, Thanks for posting it.

reply to post by nekomata111


Figured it out way back in my grateful following days...s&f for keeping the spirit alive

Not sure what kind of society that you live in, however here in the U.S. the dollar is King and Corporations rise and fall on how accountable it is to their board members.

So to claim that they do not need your money, your time or you, needs to have a bit more thought and factual evidence to persuade me in believing your views

Sounds like you have jumped on the Descartes bandwagon a bit

reply to post by nekomata111


Did you finish the thought? What do they want?

I think they want me to create for them... A stable world...

Money is a tool, which works when I have little. Doesn't matter how much they have.

EVERYTHING matters lol.

I think even you don't see the BIG game. Ha. The universe is small. It fits completely inside me.

I'm going back to my world. Don't destroy it please.

Originally posted by allprowolfy
Not sure what kind of society that you live in, however here in the U.S. the dollar is King and Corporations rise and fall on how accountable it is to their board members.

So to claim that they do not need your money, your time or you, needs to have a bit more thought and factual evidence to persuade me in believing your views

Sounds like you have jumped on the Descartes bandwagon a bit

edit on 7-4-2012 by allprowolfy because: (no reason given)

I'm not jumping any bandwagon, perhaps in your mind I'm, and also in how you try to perceive what I said based in the knowledge you can remember and how you grasp it.

It's this dualism that you can't explain with words, because language is based on duality and contrasts, but you can try to perceive it yourself and you can be able to understand, but will you ever try?

Let's say you try to describe a human being: there is a body, a mind, a character, a history of observable or registrable actions, habits, behavior, and other things we can write upon to describe a person. We can even divide these characteristics further into more fundamental properties. We can analyze the mind and see that there are sensations, cognition, feelings, ideas. And we can analyze the brain and find that there are neurons, axons, synapses, etc. However, none of these constituents describe the essence of the person, the mind, or the brain. Again, the essence remains elusive. This is the emptiness of inherent existence, now try apply it to corporations, countries, money... they are illusion that your mind hold as real and independent because you cannot or don't want grasp all the causes and conditions that allow the phenomenon to arises and be maintained for some period of time.

Also emptiness is not nothing, a good example is science, and the understanding of natural laws that permit we transform the world.

In human perspective all in this universe have the meaning that the mind want to hold it, if it's a nation of greed people, gold and money will be important and soften the ways of life that are perceived as pleasurable. In reality everything is emptiness and open to possibilities.

Originally posted by nekomata111

I think you under mind a lot of substantiated research that certainly shows a guiding hand in many instances of our lives. The fact the you are so gung-ho about squashing any skepticism towards the ruling class in our country, makes me uncertain of your intent.

However in regards to your argument, You state that they don't want our money, our time, or us. So you addressed why they don't want our money, and that was it, the rest was a vague esoteric description of confusion.

So you say they don't want our money because they have all of it. What if they don't want the money because they need it, but they want it to keep us at the bottom of the totem poll.

You say they don't want our time, and provide no reason as to why. What if they want our time to be spent on other things than focusing on what they are doing. If a bunch of people stopped running to and fro all the time because they have to keep their life in check; and started wandering, taking days off to explore, to travel... well God forbid they might see how the ruling class lives day to day. Or more importantly they are scared that with enough time on our hands we could construct ways to deteriorate the system of control.

You say they don't want us, and provide no reason as to why. You mentioned War, who fights in these wars? Don't they need people to fight these wars? Certainly they aren't going to risk their lives. Could they take our money and our time away to create desperate situations (that maybe illusions, but all the same are still present in the minds of the masses, not just conspiracy theorists), and from these desperate situations come the droves of teenagers and young men and women who risk their lives, simply for a paycheck and a promise of a better tomorrow, they care not who they are fighting.

The illusions you say that are ever changing, while a neat principle and one I agree with, they are still there long enough to make an impact on many.

See I'm not creating an illusion, I'm asking, "What if?" Is it possible? the fact that the resounding answer among many people is yes shows that it has become reality, intentional or not.

On the ironic side of the table, I have to ask. If this is all just an illusion we've created, why is it so dramatically affecting our lives.

I agree though, some of this is an illusion we've created, but it's only in an attempt to explain the unaccountable. The problems we face did not just arise our sheer chance. If we can put a man on the moon, traverse the globe in a single flight, station people at the bottom of the earth in the harshest conditions sustainably, how is it that we can't fix these relatively simple problems? This is what we try to explain. The fact that it is "unfindable" does leave a lot of room for unfounded theories. However when you have masses of people trying explain something, and they all come up with similar conclusions, you begin to find truth. I'm mean the world is simple after all.

So lets not get bogged down with the intangible, and lets not berate the hermits of cyberspace for sharing their views. Leave room for debate, and don't destroy a theory with opinion.

Finally, I understand your idea of everything is there, but nothing is real. Up is down, and good cannot exist without evil. I think you are looking too far into that. Trying to find truth behind metaphysics, but these things are not the answer, they are the passive traits of the universe.

p.s. It was difficult to intelligently dissect your argument, so in turn my argument is a spread apart. I feel that you should readdress your point of view and contract a more discernable thesis and more convincing points.

Originally posted by wishful1gnorance

Your response is in general why you don't see many people openly trying to describe the ultimate reality as I tried, it cannot be described with words, it's very easy for the single mind hold in what it perceives as reality and reject what you try to say, but you can perceive it so very much that even your notion of self will start dissolving, my choice of words to the topic was just to create the basis to the explanation of the real nature of reality or emptiness, the answer is in the first phrase, 'Because nothing of this actually exists" everything else was to describe the emptiness of inherent existence that is reality, your mind worked a lot to find meaning to what I said, when I just wanted everybody to try grasp it themselves.

Originally posted by wishful1gnorance
On the ironic side of the table, I have to ask. If this is all just an illusion we've created, why is it so dramatically affecting our lives.

Excellent question! Just by asking this I can say you understood large part of it. Thats a subject that I really didn't want to approach, the answer is: we are also illusion as well, I don't believe that anything is eternal, so I need to hold in various concepts of my present self to keep working and living, we are actually part of everything and participate in this illusion we created to ourselves in this or previous existences, so I think we deserve to live in this world until our consciousness evolve enough, there's no inherent meaning to life also, everything is open and I find this wonderful, so wonderful that now I firmly believe that we need to extinguish the egoism and other forms of perceived evil and roots of suffering from this world.

I read a lot about all kinds of theories, religions thats out there, but all of this I could grasp observing with mind free of any thoughts (meditation), I found some Buddhist texts and quantum physics compatible with what I believe, including some words I'm using like emptiness and causes and conditions come from buddism.

Originally posted by nekomata111

I don't feel like I was oppressive to your concept. I agree it needs more exploring. I too studied the eastern philosophies. The Tao Te Cheng was a very motivational book during my youth. I understand what you are talking about, and you're search for the release of want to find the surreal is indeed a description of enlightenment and nirvana. I personally subscribe to reincarnation, there is in fact more evidence that points to it in modern times than anything else, that we vessels can only grasp the mortal. Like many other substance in the universe, life fluctuates like a wave in a never ending cycle. To fight this is futile.

That does not make this less real. If it's a higher-dimension that is symbolic to your point, would a 2-d perspective be less real even though I can observe it. I guess what I mean to say is, If a higher-dimension exists and this dimension is observable from their point of view are we less real?

I guess more over, the point is, "I think therefor I am." The reality of the situation is our environment is tangible, it registers with my senses, even if we posses extra-sensory faculties it does not make our circumstances less relevant.

So here's the deal, as long as I remain upon this mortal coil, I would like to try and affect the things that are viable. Even if a few escape into enlightenment, which I maintain that millions of buddhists have been trying to do for nearly 2000 years, the majority will remain, and if this is where I can make a difference I will certainly try. Ghandi said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Be that change, the more you fight being on this plane the more you are tied to it, accept it and be part of it and it will melt away.

Focus, and make a difference where you can, to tell people not to worry about any of this because it's made up of emptiness, is alarming and aims to create the same passivity you are trying to get people to move away from. Do not make the same mistake the Buddhist in China made, where they sat idly by and were slaughtered by their government. They didn't escape the coil, doing such would be felt through every entity in the world at the same moment, which has only been done twice before. Accept what we have in front of us as reality and make a difference where you can, not in the intangible and esoteric, because your liberty to do such will be taken long before then.

Alas, the one thing that does strike me as being of base is purpose. That there is no meaning to life. I disagree with all my heart. There is purpose, if it's something we cannot perceive, fine. In every one of the meditative trances I've lost myself in, the one thing I most certainly always found, was purpose. Even in you derivation of nothing you show and explanation of purpose. It is this duality that you must understand. There cannot be nothing, without there also being something. This is in the teachings you aspire too. Find it yourself.

No, they don't want my money, or any of my time, and probably couldn't care less about me.
However, they want control. To gain said control, they must occupy MY time, by making me work for a piece of paper (Money), thus actually caring about what I do as long as I do not infiltrate and infuriate the status-quo.
Is my modus operandi to sit on my ass all day and wait for something to happen versus making things happen?

As the saying goes
"There are three types of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who wonder what happened".
- Mary Kay Ash

Originally posted by wishful1gnorance

I think we don't differ too much, your text is very interesting, and i embrace many of the views, what i said still with me, but perhaps i'm experiencing what you did since i'm entering my 20's in this same search, I do really appreciate your post and your views.

bye.

reply to post by nekomata111


The only thing worse then having an evil conglomerate at the helm is the thought that there is no one at the helm and no purpose behind anything, everything is in the hands of chance. Kind of like the only thing worse then a bad pilot behind the wheel and control's of your airplane is the thought that there is no pilot there at all.

They need and strive for them, they are created out of the masses will for order, the bickering and struggles is just byplay and foreplay, because it's all a game of chance, and the mind is a whole nother reality to itself, it strives order even if that order is broken.

But once you think enough in this problem you can see that the dualism perpetrated by us vs they, TPTB vs population is an illusion.

Yup its all illusions, and illusions are grander.

Theres no magic no power, only ignorance that cannot compute the causes and conditions that create the illusion that something exists thus giving to the phenomenon an existence apart, now apply this to human beings, relation between human beings, the apparent existence of material things, laws, or even god.

And so the illusion of control is manifested as a way to escape the reality that they can not compute the causes. What you do not know...You fear. Then you make laws and put up illusions as a way to understand and control that fear you do not quite grasp.

The cause of war and disarrangement is ignorance, both sides create a perception of reality in their minds, they could apparently mismatch or perfectly relate in the current situation, but once the circumstances or the causes and conditions for that sentiment or agreement ceases created illusion changes and it's not what you thought it to be and now you want to change it, get away or destroy it.

If we can not control the thing we do not know, and if our illusions fall and our laws and constructs put in place are broken. Then we are left with...Fight or Flight. The basic instinct of our ancestors and of any other creature in this world, we just have a more complicated way of going on about it...But in the end when all is said and done it comes down to fight or flight.

Now probably your saying to yourself, that there are more options then those two ultimatums. You would be right, however the moment would disagree with you. Then back to square one everything goes...Fight or Flee, basic instinct that throughout the ages has become a bit more complex, but if you know its origin you know its modus and if you know the moment in question you know its operandi.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird

That's pretty much a good view of the reality applied to our perception of society, what you said about instinct is also very important.

Darwinism shows that individual cannot win the evolution game. His genes drive him to compete and propagate, but he is not propagating himself, he is propagating his selfish genes. We spend our lives from birth to death acquiring nutrients to grow and ensure our survival. Nowadays many of us acquire sufficient nutrients to actually reduce our chances of survival, but instincts driven by genes developed during millions of years of selection by famine don't disappear in a generation.

We acquire every material need and even then it's not enough. Our instincts drive us to acquire everything else we can lay our hands on. Things may be no use to us, but our deep instincts tell us that by holding them ourselves we are depriving our competitors (everybody but our immediate kin) of them.

But we are different from animals we can understand reality, not world nor life but the ultimate reality and understanding our instincts is a good start.

I see two different concepts here: the Secular, or worldly. And the Spiritual.

All of us know the secular life where money is important, where we work to make the insanely rich even richer (yes, I call one pct of people owning 98 pct of all wealth insane), where governments are made of puppets, where wars are started to make sure things do not change in favor of the masses, where people who are strongly suggesting change are murdered (Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, John Lennon, Michael Jackson, Pim Fortuyn and many, many others), and where amazing inventions are hidden by theft and murder.

Then there is the spiritual. There are many religions and Gods, many of them based on secular experience. Almost everyone who talks about spirituality talks about love, and the power of love. Let's break down secularism. Money is not a goal. Happiness is more of a choice than an achievement. Understanding something more makes you ask more questions, until you realize that you are (I AM) the key player in this life, and your influence, which is amazingly huge in your life, starts from within. Do you care about anything? Love it unconditionally. Improve your being. Be a Buddha or a Jesus.

Something I see happening in the secular world: quantum mechanics, quantum science, quantum language; where nothing is real... I suspect that it is a way of programming people who are looking for something different. I don't agree with the statement "There are an infinite number of possible realities, (so this one is not important)". That last part is not being said out loud, but I hear it. I find this life important, also on a spiritual level. I suggest you do not terminate this life to find another reality.

Back to spiritual life: This universe is a school, not really a punishment, but much like a prison. I saw a 'master' Buddhist on youtube, he said boringly: "and then you die again, and then you are born again". I found one book that is related to A Course in Miracles. Title: the disappearance of the Universe. I read half of it, but it gave me a new insight that kinda resonates with near death experiences: We are inside a dream, our own dream. Our spirit/soul will always go back to another realm where love IS (that part is timeless). That is where we came from, that is where we belong. Somehow we chose to be here, in an imperfect universe. Maybe because we thought we needed a challenge. So here we are, powerful beings in a set of rules that challenges us. The reason why you should not end your life is because you are not done learning, you should not waste this experience, because you will have to to all of it over again: you own work. But you are free to do whatever you want, to learn your way, your best way of being. My experience is that if you change yourself (your diet, your breathing, your activities or your thoughts) the world will change before your very eyes. I find it hard to change myself but it is the most important thing I could ever do. The first step to becoming whole again.

reply to post by nekomata111


You say they don't want our money because they have it in abundance..
Yes, but...
Let's say, for e.g. that they wanted a better world, in which all humanity could co-exist without war, voilence etc. and they wanted control of this world, as they see themselves as the ones fit enough and smart enough to do so, then it is no longer about money and now about power. In order to get to this point, you need a population of sheep, working in compartmentalization.

I may be missing you point, but I never once thought it was about money, more about control, power and respect. What is money to someone who can print it?