Greece on the breadline: cashless currency takes off

In return for his expert labour, Mavridis received a number of Local Alternative Units (known as tems in Greek) in his online network account. In return for the eggs, olive oil, tax advice and the rest, he transferred tems into other people's accounts.

"It's an easier, more direct way of exchanging goods and services," said Bernhardt Koppold, a German-born homeopathist and acupuncturist in Volos who is an active member of the network. "It's also a way of showing practical solidarity – of building relationships."

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No one may hold more than 1,200 tems in the account "so people don't start hoarding; once you reach the top limit you have to start using them."

And no one may owe more than 300, so people "can't get into debt, and have to start offering something".

Tems? It sounds like some sort of digital currency. Apparently the system uses open source software called The Cyclos project. This is an extremely interesting development. It reminds me a little bit of Bitcoin, but I'm not sure exactly how it works yet, I'll need to look into it more. The debt limit seems ok to me, but the upper limit should be higher in my opinion. I doubt a single tem is worth more than a Euro, so that's a pretty small limit. Seems like they are starting to take things into their own hands. How is the world going to react to this?

source

reply to post by ChaoticOrder
I don't like the upper limits imposed. Other than that, it sounds like an accounting format for bartering.

Will have to give this some thought.

S&F

FInally, I see some grip of TPTB got loose.
Its not good/practical, but a good start to reestablish the term "money".

Once "money" redefined, we will leave all this mess.
Only thing I dont want to see is "carbon tax" or some type of other "fiat like" "money" arise. If its does, back to square one.

reply to post by beezzer


i cant but laugh cause of your default pic lol "Everyone Else Has Had More Sex Than Me"

Great stuff!!
We are setting up a very similar system here in southern spain. The website goes live next week. Our system uses Units called "Olivos" as the unit for exchange. The scheme has been up and running slowly for a few months using only a4 paper files and using the local organic food shop as the office. But as more and more people get interested its had to go online. based on the English L.E.T.S system which stands for labour exchange trading scheme. I gotta go to work now in fact fruit and veg for walking and bringing a friends kid to school.
Hasta luego y Buena suerte!

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

I don't like the upper limits imposed. Other than that, it sounds like an accounting format for bartering.

Will have to give this some thought.

S&F

No this is the way the way I think the entire society should be a maximum number of money you can have no elite no upper, middle or lower class everybody has the same no matter what job this way people would work in fields that pays alot even though they hate the job which is one of our current problem...

There would be no filthy rich bastards or elite using their money to shift country economies and the excess wealth could be used and invested advanced energy researches and real medical researches,

Here is how to fix all the economic woes of the world in one fell swoop keeping the monetary systems as they are.
If all the governments of the world got together and gave each human being (in the equivalent national amount) $1,000,000,000.00 (billion) dollars. It would cost all the governments about $500,000,000,000.00 (billion) dollars. If they used the $13 trillion dollars in American bonds being held in Italy - there would be $12 trillion 500 billion dollars left over to fix all economies of all nations plus every person would be a billionaire to start with> What do you think?

reply to post by garygnu


You do realize that there are 7 billion people on the planet. what is one billion times 7 billion?

$7,000,000,000,000,000,000

edit: and 13 trillion divided by 7 billion is only $1857.

Even if you had 999 trillion to spread between every person on Earth each would get only $142,714.

Originally posted by garygnu
Here is how to fix all the economic woes of the world in one fell swoop keeping the monetary systems as they are.
If all the governments of the world got together and gave each human being (in the equivalent national amount) $1,000,000,000.00 (billion) dollars. It would cost all the governments about $500,000,000,000.00 (billion) dollars. If they used the $13 trillion dollars in American bonds being held in Italy - there would be $12 trillion 500 billion dollars left over to fix all economies of all nations plus every person would be a billionaire to start with> What do you think?

Wouldn't work. If everyone owned a billion dollars for example, a billion dollars would be worth almost nothing.

As for the OP, it sounds great! When the economy kicks people out, start a new economy! It's an economy within an economy, indeed an independent economy where someone's value in terms of skills or resources has value again and traded independently of the big Euro (or whatever) economic currency.

reply to post by beezzer


I like both the upper and lower limits, it means you cannot get greedy and hoard and you cant get into debt either.

Personally O think there should also be a cieling on how much money and property people have, i mean the rothechilds own nearly everything now. They have multiple palaces more than any king or queen for god sake.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


....How is that different than a Dollar, a Euro.. even a gold coin?

Exchange of a figure that represents a commonly accepted form of payment for goods or service. That's called "Money".

(different aside from the idiotic limitations imposed.. wish people would bother understanding the principle theories of economic models and why some, such as this proposal, would destroy modern society..)

reply to post by TheMindWar

I like both the upper and lower limits, it means you cannot get greedy and hoard and you cant get into debt either.

Greed has nothing to do with saving money. If you earn that money honestly I see no valid reason why you shouldn't be able to save it up. The problem, according to some economists, is that when you save money it's not being used in the economy and spending isn't as high as it should be. But that reasoning is absurd, because people only save money so that they can spend it later.

And the only reason some people are able to accumulate so much wealth in the first place is because wealth is distributed so unevenly. Even if there was an upper limit, anyone who reached the limit would simply spend their money on expensive items and transfer their wealth into other assets like houses, boats, etc. The problem is that they get payed so much in the first place compared to the average person.

It's like trying to fix the disease after it happens rather than trying to figure out what the cause of that disease it.

reply to post by Rockpuck

....How is that different than a Dollar, a Euro.. even a gold coin?

Exchange of a figure that represents a commonly accepted form of payment for goods or service. That's called "Money".

Of course it's a type of money, I don't remember saying it wasn't. However, this form of money isn't an official Government currency or anything like that, so it's different in that respect. I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at though.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


What I'm trying to get at is that, regardless of who prints it ... it's still what it is. It's relative. It's not safer, it's not more convenient (far less since so few accept it) It can't be converted, and in most countries it's a form of tax evasion.

So I'm simply asking .. aside from subscribing to the specific economic beliefs, however flawed they are, why is this considered such a revolutionary idea?

It's like a mundane Bitcoin with more rules attached.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Correct. It's currency with caps on the top and caps on the bottom. The problem I have is that if someone wants to work more to earn more to have more, they'd be at a disadvantage.

If you working in a purely local ecconmic sence there is no reason not to do it. as long as
you have resources in the other ecconomic sphere. you could be bankrupt in one and weathy in
the other that would be pretty awsome. It is revolutionary because it isn't constrained by govenments
A revolution through ideas. if enough people in greece take up the idear tax revenues will drop and
they wount be able to do governments woun't be able to stop the collaps. revoltion through ecconomics
pretty interesting idear.

reply to post by Rockpuck

What I'm trying to get at is that, regardless of who prints it ... it's still what it is. It's relative. It's not safer, it's not more convenient (far less since so few accept it) It can't be converted, and in most countries it's a form of tax evasion.

Well the article says that Greece has passed a new law which allows things like this, so I doubt it's illegal or they wouldn't be talking about it openly like this. The article also mentioned that it can be converted to euros.

As for it being any safer overall, it probably isn't. I just think it's good to see this people taking things into their own hands rather than relying on "official" currencies which they are forced to use. At least they don't have to put trust into those currencies if they don't want to, especially if it seems like those currencies are going down hill. I can see why they might think it's safer to rely on something which is more transparent and something the little people have more control over. That's why I like Bitcoin, but I agree with you, it is like a mundane version of Bitcoin with more rules attached. They would be better off simply using Bitcoin in my opinion.

The problem with caps is that it takes big money/terms to do big things.

Want a new sports stadium? You can't get one for 1200terms/dollars.
New hospital?

300 terms of debt is still debt. You just have no recourse when you try to collect. So it's back to breaking bones.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

What I'm trying to get at is that, regardless of who prints it ... it's still what it is. It's relative. It's not safer, it's not more convenient (far less since so few accept it) It can't be converted, and in most countries it's a form of tax evasion.

So I'm simply asking .. aside from subscribing to the specific economic beliefs, however flawed they are, why is this considered such a revolutionary idea?

You answered your own question, Rock. This is, by definition, revolutionary because it is a direct effort to sidestep the austerity taxes running rampant in Greece. If Joe Popadopolous sells a bunch of grape leaves to Dick Diplodocous for 100 Euros, which he deposits into his bank account, then he will be subject to having a high percentage of those Euros stolen from his account by the ECB's tax collector to pay for the Greek bailout. If, however, Joe's grape leaves are sold for these non-monetary based credits housed in an institution separated from the grasp of the ECB, he can arguably walk away with 100% of his product's worth available to use as he wishes.

Not saying I find this to be all that bright... realistically speaking, this can be expected to be swiftly legislated and a distinct, taxable value applied by the tax collectors should this prove to be widely used or have any significant impact on tax revenue in Greece. However, it is a middle finger in "The Man's" face and, for that, I gotta give them a lot of credit.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6



You answered your own question, Rock. This is, by definition, revolutionary because it is a direct effort to sidestep the austerity taxes running rampant in Greece. If Joe Popadopolous sells a bunch of grape leaves to Dick Diplodocous for 100 Euros, which he deposits into his bank account, then he will be subject to having a high percentage of those Euros stolen from his account by the ECB's tax collector to pay for the Greek bailout. If, however, Joe's grape leaves are sold for these non-monetary based credits housed in an institution separated from the grasp of the ECB, he can arguably walk away with 100% of his product's worth available to use as he wishes.

Not saying I find this to be all that bright... realistically speaking, this can be expected to be swiftly legislated and a distinct, taxable value applied by the tax collectors should this prove to be widely used or have any significant impact on tax revenue in Greece. However, it is a middle finger in "The Man's" face and, for that, I gotta give them a lot of credit.

This is what I was trying to say above, it restores the value in someones labor and resources, where the broad euro economy may have marginalised or completely ostracised such a person from the economy. The Tems then are held by the payee of which can be used to purchase goods and services with other participating members and vice versa. No euros, no government intervention or taxation.