Ken Bigley - why are we just waiting for him to die?!?!

From what I have witnessed as many others have, we have seen the fate of many others who were kidnapped by Muslim Extremists.. and we have seen there fate...

We have seen him beg and plead for mercy, for his life to be saved... but why has nothing been done to save him..?

I am sure that the Government leaders will say in a weeks time that they died in a case which could not be helped... but could it?

The fact that no women prisoners were released because we are not meant to been seen to bowing to the request of terrorist is understandable, but the fact is, he could still be alive now in the hope that something will be done, aware of the fate of the other 2 Americans who were beheaded..

Is it right that no action will be taken for the reason of losing face to terrorist... we are talking about an innocent human beings life.. try to put yourself in that position...

you are kidnapped with 2 americans... put on video to make demands to the US and UK governments... demands are not met and one compatriate gets his head sawn off... and you are waiting to see what happens next....
demands are made again.. you are hoping that some response will be made... you are in a foreign country after being kidnapped and there are only yourself and another american citizen left... demands are not met... 2nd American gets his head sawn off... you are waiting... you are asked to make a plea to your government as a last attempt for their requests... you beg for almost quater of an hour to be released and for help from your country, red cross ANYONE to spare your life for your wife, your family YOUR CHILD... and still nothing... just waiting... you know the fate of the others and those prior to your abduction... you know what the terrorists WILL do... but the government... 1000miles away states that they will not bow to the demands of terrorist... you are just awaiting your fate... WHy HAS NOTHING BEEN DONE??!?! why have special forces not been sent out, why have negotiotiations not been made, why hasn't a rescue attempt been made... whilst this is been written, more than likely the leaders of the country are either tucking into their food, sleeping in their multiple thousand dollar/pound bed in the knowledge that they are going to wake up with their families around them... with a job to wake up to.. with an new excuse for the following catastophe.... IS THIS JUSTIFIED?!?!

What would happen if 1 of Prime minister Tony Blairs Children or George Bush's children decided to travel abroad as has Prince Harry (son of Prince Charles (UK)) and then be abducted... do you think that Bush or Blair would then say, "we will not act to demands made by terrorists"... I don;t even need to answer this... If it were your own children you would alread know the answer...

This is probably inappropriate to write but goddam, IF I DON't WRITE WHAT IS GOING THROUGH THE MINDS OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE I SPEAK TO ASWELL AS MYSELF I WILL GO CRAZY!!! (If you cannot empathise... watch one of the video's (ANY VIDEO INFACT) involving the kidnappings that have occured in Iraq and then read this thread... I guarantee you that you will empathise with what I am feeling within an Iota!

Increase the peace,
SILENCE THE VIOLENCE!!!!!!

Klep.

[edit on 23/9/04 by Klepto]

Originally posted by Klepto
Is it right that no action will be taken for the reason of losing face to terrorist

Its not a matter of loosing face. If taking hostages is an effective way to get your demands met, then you will allways take hostages, everytime that you have a demand. Effectively, the US would have to leave iraq. But then what happens when they take another hostage and tell teh US to leave Saudi Arabia? And then to leave the DMZ in korea, and then japan, germany, eastern europe, and everywhere else. And then what happens when someone wants the US to send money somwhere, or what if one set of hostage takers demand that we do something, (say support bid for autonomy in turkish cyrpus)and another the opposite (say support unifaction of all cyprus, or whatever)

you are kidnapped with 2 americans... put on video to make demands to the US and UK governments... demands are not met and one compatriate gets his head sawn off... and you are waiting to see what happens next....
demands are made again.. you are hoping that some response will be made
You can give up hope, because the demands will not be met. Ever. The US will not give in to terrorists and kidnappers.

... you are in a foreign country after being kidnapped and there are only yourself and another american citizen left... demands are not met... 2nd American gets his head sawn off... you are waiting... you are asked to make a plea to your government as a last attempt for their requests... you beg for almost quater of an hour to be released and for help from your country, red cross ANYONE to spare your life for your wife, your family YOUR CHILD... and still nothing... just waiting... you know the fate of the others and those prior to your abduction... you know what the terrorists WILL do... but the government... 1000miles away states that they will not bow to the demands of terrorist... you are just awaiting your fate... WHy HAS NOTHING BEEN DONE??!?!
What can possibly be done?

why have special forces not been sent out,

Where?

why have negotiotiations not been made,

With who and for what? These terrorists aren't meeting in set locations with members of the US military.

IS THIS JUSTIFIED?!?!

No, its not. The kidnappers are not justified in murdering people to get what they want.

you think that Bush or Blair would then say, "we will not act to demands made by terrorists"

Yes. However, I think that after bush watches his twins get their heads sawed off, that there will not be much left of anyone in iraq.

... I don;t even need to answer this... If it were your own children you would alread know the answer...

Good thing you aren't the president.

This is probably inappropriate to write but goddam, IF I DON't WRITE WHAT IS GOING THROUGH THE MINDS OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE I SPEAK TO ASWELL AS MYSELF I WILL GO CRAZY!!! (If you cannot empathise... watch one of the video's (ANY VIDEO INFACT) involving the kidnappings that have occured in Iraq and then read this thread... I guarantee you that you will empathise with what I am feeling within an Iota!

Increase the peace,
SILENCE THE VIOLENCE!!!!!!

Unbeleiveable. You proclaim that violence should be stopped, but haven't citicised the savages who are kidnapping and hacking people to death, and rather demand, along with them, that their demands be met. Do you have any idea how many kidnappings will occur if the US gives into one groups demands? The people who killed these hostages know that if they are caught, and are extremely lucky, they will be executed cleanly after a trial. But in all likelyhood, when the US soldiers who capture them capture them, there will more than likely be some who are willing to risk court martial for tearing them into peices.

you have to understand though that myself... I am a peaceful person, but the fact that nothing has been done...

The government if they wanted to find out, could find out where he is being held..

and you are prolly right, it is not a good thing that I am not the president, but if YOU were, do you think that you would let some psycotics who for example kidnapped you wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend and allow her to be shown having her head chopped off to the world, gurgleing in agony and screaming in fear...

it is easy to make the decision not to bow to the demands of the terrorist if you are not directly emotionally involved.. If it were not a member of my family and I was standing on the sideline, I could easily make the same decision as you.. because the fact is in1 year or even 2 years time I would not even remember the incident unless somebody else brought it to my attention.. but to some people it will be tatooed into there lives, and the lives of their relatives and loved ones... which is why I state that not enoughhas been done because if thisman was related to somebody of olitical importance, more effort would have been made to save his life..

is there one piece of evidence to show that an attempt has been made to egotiate, or even resuce this man? I have not seen any and would happily read any evidence to the contrary of my belief.

Nygdan you are absolutely right. I could not have said it any better. The only solution I offer is to find the radical Muslims in Iraq and detain and/or kill them.

Originally posted by Klepto
What would happen if 1 of Prime minister Tony Blairs Children or George Bush's children decided to travel abroad as has Prince Harry (son of Prince Charles (UK)) and then be abducted... do you think that Bush or Blair would then say, "we will not act to demands made by terrorists"... I don;t even need to answer this... If it were your own children you would alread know the answer...
[edit on 23/9/04 by Klepto]

Bush and Blair are heavily protected politicians who've never been in a life or death situation; it's doubtful either has a conscience. (Most politicians don't these days). On one hand they condone our remaining in Iraq
to "help" the Iraqi people yet they snub aide workers who are kidnapped.
Seems a sadistic double standard is it play.

No, the Drunken Bushlettes and Tony's kids wouldn't be getting their heads sawed off. Neither George or Tony would be "whooping" Iraqi insurgent butts in Baghdad, either.

They will, however, shout: "Bring it on!" from the safety of their underground bunkers as carnage ensues.

How do you know that nothing is being done?
We don't negotiate with terrorists, period, so thats out..No surprise there..

However, you can bet that people are looking for this guy..Under the Radar, of course.
Didn't we just "decommission" Zarqawi's right hand man.

well, like they say - if we give in this time, then they will do it again.

but you know what? they'll kill this guy and do it again anyway.

are we no longer interested in saving lives?

NYGDAN- i do agree that certain requests just couldn't be accepted. (leaving iraq, for example)

However -

prisoner exchange is the type of thing that gets the peace ball rolling. To say that "we will never negotiate with terrorists" sends the message that we are not trying to end the conflict peacefully. It means we're coming from a goal of total annihalition of the enemy. the terrorists feel their backs against a wall.

we need dialog to open up.

we need to do prisoner exchange.

if the terrorists renig on the deal, then they lose international face and america gains face.


Is it so bad to give up these two women to save this man's life and create a situation where the slightest bit of trust may be made and a sincere effort towards peace is shown?

[edit on 23-9-2004 by quango]

Originally posted by Klepto
The government if they wanted to find out, could find out where he is being held..

I'm pretty sure theres a hell of a lot of effort focusing on this very search right now in Iraq, as well as no shortage of volunteers to go and visit the hostage takers should they be found.

Originally posted by Klepto
The government if they wanted to find out, could find out where he is being held..

I really don't think that they could and choose not too. Having some one killed certainly results in, lets just say, 'ill feeling' torwards the enemy, but actually saving someone? This close to an election? Or imagine if the US troopers had saved those three kurds (you know, those guys who got so much less press than this britisher?), or those italian women?

and you are prolly right, it is not a good thing that I am not the president, but if YOU were, do you think that you would let some psycotics who for example kidnapped you wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend and allow her to be shown having her head chopped off to the world, gurgleing in agony and screaming in fear...
I would stop it if I could, I doubt that they would release her, and I am glad I am not the president too. Of course, after that, there wouldn't be any more kidnappings, just lots of person sized meat grinders.

quango
prisoner exchange is the type of thing that gets the peace ball rolling.

Perhaps one could come up with a hypothetical situation in which this would make sense, however, considering whats actually going on, there is no way to comply. And who says the US wants peace with insurgents who are willing to do this? The Mehdi Army, as far as I know, didn't do anything like this, and are shaping up to be the 'legitimate' resistance, so to speak. The US could reasonably be expected to work out peace deals with them, say, when the sadr and his men occupy a city or whatever. But Zaqarwi? Or anyone who does these sorts of things, or is willing to do it if their demands aren't met? There is no peace with them, they simply won't stop until the americans leave or they themselves are killed. And once the Americans leave, they will be the ones taking power, just like hussein. So short of murdering them, nothing can stop them.

we need to do prisoner exchange.

But these hostages are not prisoners, and the captors are not regular military.

Is it so bad to give up these two women to save this man's life and create a situation where the slightest bit of trust may be made and a sincere effort towards peace is shown?

Any effort torwards peace with this class of insurgents is a horrible mistake. Besides, they simply won't stop. If two women are released, then they will execute Mr. Bigley, because they want all women released. If all women are released, and they do release Mr. Bigley, then they will take another hostage and demand all men are released, and on and on. No, no peace with them. Look at Sadr, he wasn't an animal (he was an enemy, to be sure, in militant opposition to the US), and the US dealt with him, treated him fairly, gave him second chances, and now he is still alive, still in command of his men, and might very well have a future in the new Iraq. Zaqawri? Even after everythign is over, he won't be a representative for the 3rd disctrict (tikrit) or anything like that. He'll be dead, or on the run. He and anyone else identified with him will have no part to play in the new state. Whats more, I don't think that they want anything to do with an independant iraq, even tho they pretend to be fighting for just that. They are savage thugs, terrorists. They'd've been called nihilists or anarchists in the '20s if it weren't for the fundamentalist tint to them.

i wish i could argue my side better.

everything you say trumps my idealism.

But i am scared of a war where there is absolutely nothing for the two sides to talk about.

i hate this war.

Originally posted by quango
everything you say trumps my idealism.

Idealism is a dangerous thing.

But i am scared of a war where there is absolutely nothing for the two sides to talk about.

If there is somethign to talk about there shouldn't even be a war. When there is nothing to talk about then that is when war begins.

i hate this war.

I hate all war. Nevertheless it sometimes must occur.

Even if they were released...he'd be killed. You have to know that.

Even if he wasn't, you've just now made it a very effective method of getting your demands met, so it will only increase...(we have already seen this, by some nations capitulating to the terrorists, and pulling out).

THIS is why we DO NOT NEGOTIATE with terrorists. Simple as that really.

I am sure EVERYTHING that can be done to find him, is being done.