Obama is not a Socalist, Marxist, or Communist ! !

reply to post by nightbringr


Most of the supposed millions of deaths attributed to Mao are related to the famine that followed China's "Great Leap Forward" program. It is true the program was a distaster, but this was largely due to regional cadres falsifying grain yield reports. It was not directly intended by Mao and cannot be compared to events like the Holocaust, which was intentional, or the over-one-million killed by America in Iraq during the current war, for example.

The death toll of people who have been starved, killed, or otherwise immiserated due to capitalism far exeeds anything attributed to Mao.

Mao's genius lies in his tactical and guerilla achievements and in his ability to move 1 billion people out of feudalism and into socialism.

As for the destruction of ancient Chinese cultutre, Buddhism, etc. - Good! Humanity should stop fetishizing the past, religion, and tradition. Progress lies in the future, not behind us!

Originally posted by Leftist
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Most of the supposed millions of deaths attributed to Mao are related to the famine that followed China's "Great Leap Forward" program. It is true the program was a distaster, but this was largely due to regional cadres falsifying grain yield reports. It was not directly intended by Mao and cannot be compared to events like the Holocaust, which was intentional, or the over-one-million killed by America in Iraq during the current war, for example.

Yes, the US has killed many, ive never denied that. I do NOT hold up the US as an example, quite the opposite. They are as criminal as China. The main difference is China oppresses their own people, USA oppresses others. Mao still caused the deaths of millions, whether directly or indrectly.

What we CAN be certain of was his brutality against his own people. I present to you the Three-anti and Five-anti Campaigns:
en.wikipedia.org...

These campaigns were systematic purges of political opponents and those who disagreed with his policies. People were encouraged to rat on those thought to be non-compliant of Maos policies, and are thought to have caused the deaths and suicides of tens of thousands if not more. How are these different than Hitler or Stalins purges? Can you please list an example of purging in a democratic country?

I think this makes it obvious that if communism, and for that matter any one party system to work, there must be a purge of those who disagree. Otherwise there will always be the threat of subversion or uprising/coup.

Originally posted by Leftist
The death toll of people who have been starved, killed, or otherwise immiserated due to capitalism far exeeds anything attributed to Mao.

Mao maybe, but certainly not Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. Hey, you want to group all capitalst deaths together, i can certainly group communist ones.

Originally posted by Leftist
Mao's genius lies in his tactical and guerilla achievements and in his ability to move 1 billion people out of feudalism and into socialism.

Cant say i see that as anything special. Europe went through these transitions a century or more earlier. Dozens of countries. Nothing special there.

Originally posted by Leftist
As for the destruction of ancient Chinese cultutre, Buddhism, etc. - Good! Humanity should stop fetishizing the past, religion, and tradition. Progress lies in the future, not behind us!

While i agree that the future is whats important, i see no harm in remembering our past. We as people have a varied history, and things can be learned from it. Why destroy such treasures? Do you prepose we bulldoze the Pyramids and Taj Mahal?

To back things up a little, let me ask you a question. If you could set up your form of communism in your country of choice, how or would you solidify your grip? Would you acquiesce and give up power if 70% of your citizenry wanted to go back to democracy? Would you murder citizens you suspect of forming anti-government forces or were planning coups?

I find it very telling that communist government are never elected, they take power by force. Most people thankfully are smart enough to realize by giving the government absolute power, they in turn take your rights away, and make the citizens absolutely powerless. Happens every time.

Originally posted by nightbringr
If its a spade, i call it a spade.

No, you simply fail to understand what is propaganda and what really historically happened.

A government can not be communist, it is a contradiction. Communism is an economic system, it does not have to involve government at all. What it calls itself is not what it is, what they do defines what they actually are. Communism has not been practiced in any country. The countries that used that term did so in order to fool the mostly uneducated population that the government was for the people. But, just like in the USA, we know government does not work for the people, but a hierarchical elite class of wealthy people. Whether they be capitalists or members of a totalitarian state system.

Funny, this article would disagree with that statement.
en.wikipedia.org...

And that is why you are confused, you use sources that use the propagandized definition of the term instead of its true original meaning. It is the true original meaning that communists desire, not what happened in the USSR, or is happening in North Korea etc.

This is the ultimate goal of communists, socialists, and anarchists...

Free association (communism and anarchism)

It has nothing to do with what happens in so called 'communist' countries.

What is Communism?

Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat....

The Principles of Communism

You should stop getting your education from state propaganda sources.

I dont want anarchy either. I want extremely limited interference in my life from the government. All i want them to do is tax to provide infrastructure, basic education, police our streets and form a military to protect our borders. Otherwise the government can stay the hell out of my life and my business.

But as long as we have capitalism that is not going to happen, because government is a part of capitalism.
Without government capitalists would not be able to wage war, propagandize the population in order to control thoughts (from desiring socialism), have military and police to protect their capital, schools to teach you to obey, etc.

Capitalism causes this because it allows individuals, and groups, to become wealthy enough to economically control the state. How do you stop that going out of control without government being involved in the economy?
How do you keep working conditions from falling back to industrial revolution standards?

How do you keep capitalists from having complete control over the state as they do now, by only decreasing government?

So according to you, the only working form of communism ever was the brief period of the Spanish revolution before Franco took over? Thats it? Doesnt seem to be very popular then is it? Roughly half of the people of Spain did not want the system and joined with Franco to take over.

No, not according to me but history, you need to look more deeply mate, your view on all this is very shallow. No, it wasn't half the people who didn't want it, it was a few elite capitalists who had the power of the states of Spain, Italy and Germany on their side, and the so called Spanish 'communist party' who betrayed the anarchists. (about as communist as the our modern labour parties are 'socialist'. They are all just power seekers, anarchists are the only true socialists imo)

People from all over the world were going to Spain to help in the revolution. Doctors and nurses from the USA!
George Orwell went and wrote about it, 'Homage to Catalonia'. It was growing, that is why the European establishment supported the fascists.

During the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), 2,800 American volunteers took up arms to defend the Spanish Republic against a military rebellion led by General Franco and aided by Hitler and Mussolini. To the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, which fought from 1937 through 1938, the defense of the Republic represented the last hope of stopping the spread of international fascism.

And it did fail to stop the spread of fascism, and WWII was not about stopping the spread of fascism, as that is what we ended up with world wide. It was all about reducing the power of the working class back to being soulless apathetic workers and consumers.

For two years the anarchists collectively ran and controlled industry, and farms, increasing production in some places up to 50%. They rebuilt the destroyed city infrastructures. Everyone was working. The trams were rebuilt and ran for free. All done without the need to make profit, or deny some of the resources they needed.

Tram painted in CNT (Confederación Nacional del Trabajo) colours, red and black, (red for socialism, black for libertarianism/anarchism)



Confederación Nacional del Trabajo

The failure of it had nothing to do with the system not working.

The Anarchist Revolution in Spain - New Statesman

This is not about winners and losers, its about what is best for us all.

reply to post by ANOK


Wile you say I have a simplistic or shallow view of things, I would suggest you also do as well.

You paint communism with such a rosy brush, yet seeming admit that the only good example was a brief period during the Spanish revolution? Seems to me like a perfect, workin example of communism is next to impossible to achieve. I'm sure you would agree that is no different than a good working example of capitalism.

To me, capitalism is easier to fix. We need to end corporate lobby groups and corporate political donations. Pass balanced budget legislation and stick to it, and end imperialism and look after ourselves. These are no unrealistic.

I will never agree to a one party government that removes my right to vote or participate in governing my lands. That is all I have ever seen from communism. They claim to be for the people, all the while removing their rights, restricting their freedoms and creating a necessary police state to ensure their continuity. I want to be free.

I have a good life. A wife, kids, job I love and travel the world extensively. Never will I allow my government to tell me when and where I can travel, what job I can work and who I can or cannot marry.