Aztlan and Atlantis?

Ok, now I know that this connection has been made before, but does anyone think that Atlantis could've been the grecizing of the word "Aztlan?" It seems to me, that it might be more of a coincidence that these two mythical civilizations have such a similar name.

I was thinking that this forum might have people who know a bit more about the specifics of Aztlan and Atlantis, according to the recorded versions of their legends than I do, but perhaps we can compare the physical descriptions of both locations and then compare that to real-world locations?

As far as I know, the Aztec legend claims that Aztlan was north of the civilization that we know of, that was centered around Tenochtitlan (the city that Mexico city was built over). Now, I've noticed that languages and empires tend to leave little traces of their language/culture behind when they move, disappear or migrate.

en.wikipedia.org...

^^there's a link to the language family that Nahuatl (the Aztec language) belong to. Seeing as there's quite a bit of land north of central Mexico, this could give us something to help try and narrow it down.

Does anyone know anything about the physical description of Aztlan (I haven't been able to find anything too specific, just "chicano rights" advocates)? Has anyone found a location that matches that description?

Originally posted by SandrokuptosIt seems to me, that it might be more of a coincidence that these two mythical civilizations have such a similar name.

Sorry to nitpick but it is a little confusing. I think you meant, "...more than a coincidence...".

reply to post by Sandrokuptos



It's the West-SouthWest area of North America that Chicano rights Activists argue is their rightful land.

It stems from the same base word as AZTEC .

do a google image search .. you'll find it.

The Aztec culture post-dates Plato by 900 years or so, and nahuatl seems to be only slighlty older than the Aztecs.

Platos tale was about a society that existed 9,000 years before Solon was born, and he came a couple hundred years before Plato.

How would you propose reconciling these things with an Atlantean origin for the Aztecs?

After all, the Aztecs didn't describe Aztlan as some great city or world power. Atzlan was described by them as a dry area in a swamp, and alternatively as a cave. They said they left Aztlan over political differences with their leaders there,.

Nahuatl is thought to have originated in what is today the Southwestern United States. Why would anyone sail from there to conquer the few cultures extant around the Mediterreanean basin?

Harte

reply to post by Sandrokuptos


There is a place in Wisconsin that you may be interested in. Its called Aztalan.

"The name Aztalan was given to this place by Mr. Hyer, because, according to Humboldt, the Aztecs, or ancient inhabitants of Mexico, had a tradition that their ancestors came from a country at the north, which they called Aztalan; and the possibility that these may have been remains of their occupancy, suggested the idea of restoring the name. It is made up of two Mexican words, atl, water, and an, near; and the country was probably so named from its proximity to large bodies of water. Hence the natural inference that the country about these great lakes was the ancient residence of the Aztecs."

Its an interesting place. Infact there is a lake nearby with pyramids at the bottom of it!Source

reply to post by alittleironic


Interesting place however I noted that the quote is from 180 years ago and well before they excavated the place and found it was associated with the Mississippian culture and Woodland culture.

I am sorry OP, the truth is you will only find Aztlan mentioned in the writings of Chicano activists, reconquista advocates and Hispanic racist groups. The truth is the whole legend of Aztlan, is a racist farce and revisionist history, being perpetuated by minority political groups with an unhealthy interest in reconquering America and killing non-first peoples, though I would say such groups will also turn around and kill the remaining members of the many north American tribes, as well, when those tribes take that opportunity to lay claim to their old land.

The fact is the Aztec empire never stretched through north America and didn't even hold all the land of central America, or even as much land, as the current Spanish created country of Mexico. After all much of the land making up Mexico was actually seized by the Spanish conquistadors to establish the colony of New Spain.

Also, there is more then enough archeological evidence to show that many of the north american non-aztec tribes actually held the land of the American south west for generations upon generations. Here in Texas you can find an abundance of arrowheads and stone tools, each unique enough to tie them back to specific tribes in the region, but you find no artifacts, tools or evidence of any aztec occupation any time in the past.

Now could the legend of Aztlan be a meso american retelling of an ancient civilization like at Atlantis, I guess, but unfortunately I have yet to find any mention of it outside of the reconquista movement's tight ideological circles.

reply to post by Harte


Correct me if i am wrong, but the Nahuatl people (of which there are still some in the Sonora/Arizona/New Mexico/Baja area) were fairly strange folks.

Interesting cultures. I absolutely love the southwest American and Central American cultures. We have a lot of Comanche history here. Early settlers came after the buffalo hunters, and lived off money made by gathering up old buffalo bones that had been laying out on the plains just to the north of the rocky, hilly desert that is my home.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Harte

 

Correct me if i am wrong, but the Nahuatl people (of which there are still some in the Sonora/Arizona/New Mexico/Baja area) were fairly strange folks.

I wouldn't know if your are wrong, Texan.

Depends on what you mean by "strange," I suppose.

I imagine many here think I'm pretty strange, and there might be some here that think the same about you! LOL

Harte

question OP, does aztlan and atlantis have close meaning? is there any proof that the words relate to each other?

if they don't, then i think the claim is dead in the water,
i've debated people who want to contort words so they fit a preconceived relationship, but if the words don't share definitions in some way there is no way they are related.

Originally posted by demongoat
question OP, does aztlan and atlantis have close meaning? is there any proof that the words relate to each other?

if they don't, then i think the claim is dead in the water,
i've debated people who want to contort words so they fit a preconceived relationship, but if the words don't share definitions in some way there is no way they are related.

Coincidental. The time frame mentioned, would make Atlantean's of the race of the Kennewick man, if Atlantis is in North America.

I guess this isn't very well supported by evidence. I appreciate everyone's contributions so far. I was just wondering if I could get another perspective on this.

Originally posted by Sandrokuptos
Ok, now I know that this connection has been made before, but does anyone think that Atlantis could've been the grecizing of the word "Aztlan?" It seems to me, that it might be more of a coincidence that these two mythical civilizations have such a similar name.

Actually, the word "Atlantis" was created in the late 1700s by the British and did not exist before then. The original Greek story by Plato refers to the sunken island of ATLAS. Atlas was the son of Poseidon. That's why every Greek in Greece reading Plato looks for the sunken island in the Aegean sea because it says nothing about the Atlantic ocean in all Greek versions of the story.

Then in the late 1700s, the British picked up the story and wanted to steal it from the Greeks, so they created the word Atlantis from ATLAS. The British maintained that the "Pillars of Herakles" were allegedly the Strait of Gibraltor so the Brits claimed the sunken island was allegedly in the Atlantic Ocean.

However, the Pillars of Herakles used to be on the island of Rhodes and were destroyed in an earthquake, thus the other reason why every Greek reading Plato's story in Greek look for the sunken island in the Aegean sea.

So there's no similarity with Plato's story and the Mayans. Plato's story is about an island group of people that founded Athina (Athens, the capitol of Greece). According to Plato, this island who founded Athina became corrupt and those of Athens went to war with the island. Then the island sunk.

While most Greeks are polite about all the Brits and Americans who distort the story of an island that founded the capitol of Greece (Athina-Athens), written by a Greek..some don't care because it means all the Brits and Americans waste their time looking for sunken islands in the Atlantic ocean. Looks bad for intelligence that Brits in the 1700s couldn't simply translate the word for what it was...it does say ATLAS in Greek, never did say Atlantis. And now some 300+ years later, most Brits and Americans still haven't gotten the word right. The Greek alphabet isn't that different.

The name of the sunken island in the Greek alphabet is ATLAS, Atlas the son of Poseidon.

Originally posted by MapMistress

Originally posted by Sandrokuptos
Ok, now I know that this connection has been made before, but does anyone think that Atlantis could've been the grecizing of the word "Aztlan?" It seems to me, that it might be more of a coincidence that these two mythical civilizations have such a similar name.

Actually, the word "Atlantis" was created in the late 1700s by the British and did not exist before then. The original Greek story by Plato refers to the sunken island of ATLAS. Atlas was the son of Poseidon. That's why every Greek in Greece reading Plato looks for the sunken island in the Aegean sea because it says nothing about the Atlantic ocean in all Greek versions of the story.

Then in the late 1700s, the British picked up the story and wanted to steal it from the Greeks, so they created the word Atlantis from ATLAS. The British maintained that the "Pillars of Herakles" were allegedly the Strait of Gibraltor so the Brits claimed the sunken island was allegedly in the Atlantic Ocean.

However, the Pillars of Herakles used to be on the island of Rhodes and were destroyed in an earthquake, thus the other reason why every Greek reading Plato's story in Greek look for the sunken island in the Aegean sea.

So there's no similarity with Plato's story and the Mayans. Plato's story is about an island group of people that founded Athina (Athens, the capitol of Greece). According to Plato, this island who founded Athina became corrupt and those of Athens went to war with the island. Then the island sunk.

While most Greeks are polite about all the Brits and Americans who distort the story of an island that founded the capitol of Greece (Athina-Athens), written by a Greek..some don't care because it means all the Brits and Americans waste their time looking for sunken islands in the Atlantic ocean. Looks bad for intelligence that Brits in the 1700s couldn't simply translate the word for what it was...it does say ATLAS in Greek, never did say Atlantis. And now some 300+ years later, most Brits and Americans still haven't gotten the word right. The Greek alphabet isn't that different.

The name of the sunken island in the Greek alphabet is ATLAS, Atlas the son of Poseidon.

If you were to bother to read Plato's works on this - Timaeus and Critias, you'd see why you are wrong.

The word "Atlantis" existed in ancient Greece, right along with all the other Greek words.

It does have Atlas as its root word. It is the possesive form meaning "of, or relating to, Atlas."

Hellanikus of Lesbos is known to have written a treatise, apparently about Atlas' daughters/family, entitled "Atlantis."

This was in the 400's BCE.

Herodotus also used the term "Atlantis," referring to the Atlantic Ocean. The word is plain to see, right there in Herodotus' text, even if you can't read Greek (I can't.)

Harte

I'm pretty sure the name Aztalan was given to the place by an archeologist. I don't think it was their actual name for it. One of the posters above actually has a quote saying that. However, it is a really neat place, and digs are still continuing there as of last summer. I used to work about a mile away so I would visit there pretty often. It's a very serene place to visit, it's open to the public and there are a lot of paths winding around the area. Once on a walk, I had the privilege of speaking to one of the students working on the dig. Aztalan is located right next to a river, the archeologists there were digging close to the riverbed looking for waste artifacts.

Since I live right over there, I was thinking of taking another day trip. I'll post some pictures of the different areas for everyone to see. I also want to go check out rock lake, where the sunken pyramids are. This is probably a good time of year to do so before it gets all mucky. I'll post pictures and any findings I come across on that as well.

reply to post by Sandrokuptos


i think its more of a coincidence but hey who knows