Is there a Heaven And Hell ? or the worlds greastest lie?

First, the general word 'hell' that we use, isn't quite accurate. We have sheol/hades (the grave). The bible also speaks of the lake of fire. I hope you don't mind reading what the Orthodox Christian view of hell is. I've used this post quite a bit in similar discussions, so forgive the copy-paste of an older post of mine (not that you could tell unless you've read it before).

God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

Why should it matter? I am not good because it want a cookie I am good because it is the right thing to do for me and for my species. I don't do things that are morally wrong because I am afraid of being spanked. I dont do them because they create an undesirable results that make things difficult for me and my species. These things set in to motion a whole cascade of events I no long have control over and did not intend. And there are unintended results and consequences to consider. I live my life in a logical and conscientious manner if there is a god and they want to judge me for that I say let him/her/it try.

reply to post by HEATHERTHOMSON911


Certain religions have different ideas of HELL. The Bible says:

Luke 16:19-24 (King James Version) 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

reply to post by SimontheMagus

We are all born with a desire to find the "Creator", because we all came from this original source. In some it is insatiable and intense, in others not so much so. That isn't something that religion instilled in us, it's what was instilled in us at birth that religion preys upon.

That's why young children have no problem in connecting with the creator. You can see the joy on a child's face as he/she has just immersed themselves in that powerful force of creation that now eludes most adults today.

That child has no evil thoughts, only thoughts of re-connecting with that creative force that we all came from. MUD PIES.

Originally posted by HEATHERTHOMSON911

If anyone can help me, it would be gratifying for one to be without faith is one to float for an eternity.

edit on 6-3-2012 by HEATHERTHOMSON911 because: (no reason given)

**Please understand my incoherence below is wine affected, badly written but essentially what I believe.**


No! There is no eternity, everything is finite - absolutely! Even the Sun will burn and die, is there a heaven for stars?!?

I rationalised my own philosophy when i was 12 that of course I wanted to think there was a heaven, reincarnation and a future beyond mans' years, mainly because I was scared of the dark. I soon realised that the empirical evidence completely disagrees however and my little boy self knew it just by looking up and around.

To test in simple terms: assign the same value to all living things for now and ever was; animal, human, plant, insect - do they go to the same heavens? Separate heavens? Are they reincarnated cross species? Are there preferred or superior species? Chosen lifeforms above others by a benevolent god? Extrapolate by the number of solar systems, galaxies and potentially universes..... Do we all have one afterlife residence in glorious happiness or is there another street/town/city/planet/galaxy/universe style arrangement we all share?!? If there is a sentient presence that controls our future why would they not prepare us for harmonious cross species cohabitation, and if not why segregation of the species in the after life from the Allseeingeye/god?

I eat meat, I am not afraid to chop down a tree or cultivate crops because I understand one thing - death of the biological form is the end. Damn Moby...but... we are all made of stars. (gulp) Essentially the matter of above and below is the same as within, we are the 'sentient' manifestation of matter and at present limited by the over riding genetic need to propagate ourselves. Eventually the Singularity will come, too late for most of us to 'live forever' but it will come, then people will not die and live across the stars, in different universes even, what for religion then? Hari Kari? Will the religions ignore bajillions of light years separation to still be inclusive to co belivers? Will heaven be 'extended' across the blackness or will there be a delay in arrivals for those lightyears of distance?

Then back to your original question of floating for eternity: be true to your wishes, be true to your finite existence, be true to the memory of loved ones because they can only live through you, be true to your desires, be true to your fellow man, smile - trust me it makes you happier but remember, you live, your body dies and your memories and personality also die because there is nowhere to house them. Until the Singularity this is sad fact.

Sorry again for incoherency!

I believe the word hell in the bible just represents the state you are in when dead. Here is why

The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times

The Biblical Doctrine of Hell

Do a lot of hallucinogens, natural ones... Shrooms, Ayahausca, Iboga... you won't question anymore

reply to post by HEATHERTHOMSON911

Religion and spirituality are just a way to cope with the conditions of our reality. Certain mortality and suffering are hard to grasp. We live our lives not to die but to overcome. So the thought that we will forcefully be put down is not comforting. That's why we push to believe in an after-life or a larger reality or purpose. A REASON to be here that justifies the suffering. Without a REASON, we're like.... oh....

We're like this:
All of this talk about reality being a Matrix is the same deal. It's therapy. We're always grabbing at the edges of consciousness. Looking for a sign. Some evidence. A meaning. A REASON.

Once a person has been around 20 or 30 or 40 years, it's impossible not to do this. Too many people around you either get old or die. Too many accidents. Too much death and destruction in the world.

Without a reason it's just a senseless slaughter. Even the cows that're trucked to the slaughter house probably have a -reason- for it all. Since we can't talk to them we don't know what it's.

reply to post by spacedonk

TextAza, can you give any parameters to Earth Ages? As I said each belief to their own, but your arguments sound like a shoddy fantasy trilogy with a retrofit explanation in the last Act for the heroes actions. I can see how YOU justify the mishmash of religions to yourself but how is it you are positive of your interpretations? Surely a myth is a myth is a myth????

To really understand the bible you must look at it from the perspective that satan and God have a controversy that is not really explained other that Satan in the first earth age got 1/3 of the people to follow him and by the way that is about four billion souls if you do the math but that is another story. So God tells us Satan was his most intelligent and prized creation who he loved very much and even had Satan protecting his back when Satan became proud and did what he did. So when reading a the bible and trying to understand Gods word and the world in general if you look at it as Satan always trying to destroy salvation and a relationship with God it makes much more sense in the bigger picture .

As far as the three earth ages it is in the bible throughout it , and I mentioned where to read about it in earlier posts . You ask why I am so sure of my belief and the answer is simple if you have read the bible . Israel because of the Israeli people and the prophecies concerning them . I mean think of it a people that was scattered to the four winds over two thousand years ago ad just like the bible said God would bring them back home and never banish them again . The land they now live on was a waste land nobody could settle or get crops to grow on in ant major way that is until the Jews came home and the land flourished .

Look at Israel's wars , there is no way they should have one any of those wars, but they did and not only win but take back land . These wins were so unlikely they cannot be taught in military stragey classes. There are way to many prophecies in the bible that have come to pass just as they said they would for it to be anything other than an all knowing God or time traveling aliens Ibut I will go with God. The bible says God knew the end from the beginning and gave us these prophecies that we might believe. The bible also tells us that Israel will be a derision to all the nations around her and that they will try to dived her land up. These things were written thousands of years ago but are happening now . The Arab uprising that just happened was prophecied . The end is near but people just don't want to believe and that's ok because that was prophecied too.

ANSWER TO ALL YOUR PROBLEMS

By: Sir Chance Joseph Watkins

Questions? contact me, I will be glad to prove God's existence.

WARNING: Many people will fall from faith, those who endure through it all are truly strong and full of power and wisedom.

I can see you are lost. The answer is found in the Bible. Dont search for other documents until you have thoroughly searched the book of Wisdom, the Christian Book of Spells. Ill tell you one of my arguments for people believing in God. Notice how all around the world, religion started around the same time, all worshipping these 'gods'. According to MY theory, these 'gods' are actually demons and angels misinterpreted. YHWH described Israel as His 'first born' as in this was the time that he decided to make his name known throughout the sinful world.
All around the world, from ancient China and Europe to the Mayans and the Native Americans, they all came up with this concept of 'gods'. If not that, they came up with the concept in almost the same time! I find that fascinating. Think of it like this. Lets say you and I were the first humans on earth, me in the Americas and you in lets say ancient England, and a third dude in China. What would be the odds of all 3 of us coming up with the concept of 'gods' in nearly the same time frame? Surely they would come up with something original, maybe early scientific theories? (If not necessarily 'gods'; then spirits, or 'creators' that looked like dragons and such) All of them, in fact having an afterlife/underworld. Surely there must be something brewing that is out of the ordinary? Listen very carefully to this, in the Bible, it states that the world is in sin, we are born in sin. It states that many will fall from believing in God, for nature contradicts it(God is supernatural), as in science. My definition of science is man's extremely feeble attempt of trying to explain , in which it does a pretty poorly job in itself. I believe science is tainted with theories, in which are false. Evolution for example, I believe is a misinterpreted genetics. Darwin went to the Galapagos, where there are many unknown types of species. Many having different qualities. Notice how apparently, over "billions" of years, humans evolved from ape like creatures. Yet the earliest of civilizations had more knowledge than we could ever have at this time in the present. e.g the Pyramids of Egypt, crystal skulls, etc. How is it that we arent that different from our ancestors in the ancient world? To me, it appears we have gotten dumber over the years, because from looking at ancient texts, the writing was very sophisticated in terms of today.
In terms of you looking up Mesopotamian religion, I can see where you are coming from. I quickly dismissed it though. My thoughts were nearly same, if it is the most earliest religion, then it must be true! No... Notice in Gilgamesh, quote:

There is the house whose people sit in darkness; dust is their food and clay their meat. They are clothed like birds with wings for covering, they see no light, they sit in darkness. I entered the house of dust and I saw the kings of the earth, their crowns put away for ever...

They had no afterlife, but they had an underworld. As religions neared the actual God (maybe the Greeks/Romans, as their 'gods' were less creepy. Angels misinterpreted?), they seemed to be getting more vivid pictures of 'heaven' and such. God was actually casting angels down to try to save humanity from destruction over the ages! Nyeh Im getting tired of writing so, got any questions, such as language, dinosaurs, etc. look me up.

I think it's best not to worry about these things.

Apparently God (we'll use the Christian one for this exercise) is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing.
Sure, he/she/it gave humans 'free will,' but knew in advance everything they were going to do in their lives. To 'judge' them for this is a bit of a cop out. Since he/she/it knew in advance, there's an element of being spiteful if a certain individual does everything he's told by his/her religion, but then does something awful. God knew it was going to happen. It was all just to test people, right? So, if you're going to heaven or hell (based on your beliefs), it has already been determined. You have no control over it whatsoever. It was all known since before you were born. Anything you do, either good or evil, doesn't really make a difference.

This 'all powerful' God seems to have lot of trouble with Satan. After all, he/she/it created Satan (if we believe that there was dark and void and God created everything). So man/woman being tempted/corrupted by Satan is all part of the big plan too. Why would this mighty, all powerful God not have total control over something he/she/it created?

However, if you are not-a-very-nice-person-at-all and you suddenly find God on your deathbed, all is forgiven and off you go to sit at God's right hand...fluffy clouds, harps, and choirs. Nice.
If you're really a nice person, play nicely with others, are thoughtful, considerate, kind, and hospitable - BUT you don't believe in God, you're off to burn in hell. Again, this was all planned. So you didn't really stand a chance anyway.

Try to stay healthy. Take a nice walk every now and then. Be nice to others and kind to animals (except the ones you eat - your God didn't give you all those sharp, pointed teeth to eat berries). Try to keep your mind occupied. Enjoy the world around you. Try not to think about Heaven and Hell since, as noted above, you don't stand a chance as your ultimate fate is quite clearly predetermined.
Have a great life. If you dispense with the whole, "Have I displeased my deity?" thing, you'll have a rewarding and full life free from worry.

Remember that your God created everything, and knows everything that's going to happen. All things were (again, we're talking about the Christian God here) created by God, and everything that happens is part of his/her/its plan. So Satan isn't tempting you, it's God. God isn't testing you, he/she/it knows the results. Consequently, he/she/it is just messing with you for fun. He/she/it loves you, and wants you to suffer.
If that's what you want out of life, have at it. God works in mysterious ways. That you're suffering now is all part of the plan. You'll appreciate it when you finally get rewarded with.....well, he/she/it isn't going to give that away until you're in position where you can't share it with others. That would spoil things. Take all the mystery out of life.

I'll just be living and not worrying about what's going to happen to me. Apparently, it has already been worked out for me.

reply to post by HEATHERTHOMSON911


I quickly read most of the comments prior to mine, and need to point out that getting several different answers don't. mean you found what your looking for. I will try to give you more than my answer, I will attempt to explain some of the key knowledge and point of view that determine my answer.

NO...heaven and hell are not places that exist, no being comes from, nor goes to heaven or hell. they are useful words that can describe ones state of consciousness, and nothing more.

all organized religions are basically the same, it is based on the idea that there is a god that grants favor and miracles to devoted followers and worshipers. religion will have you believe that all things are outside of you, but the truth is that all things come from within, and no one person who has ever lived in the past, or that is alive now, or ever will live in the future, no one has witnessed a miracle. They only misinterpreted things they themselves caused, created or other wise had everything to do with any event or action. This includes synchronicity, and all catalyst one experiences.

Religion is confusing and contradictory in logic, which is in itself a reason to question its validity. Faith is a slave masters catchword and so are words like commandments, and worship.
FAITH as a long term means of putting your trust into a person, place or idea is the path of a fool, faith is only useful for a short time while validation is being acquired. it is useful for a situation like when you first meet a potential mate, you extend them the credit of faith until you can validate their claims(the way they present them self is a "claim")
Faith should never take the place of validation, and should never override reason and logic...faith is the idea that keeps people at bay when the mind recognizes falsehoods, which are inherent in religion...every person on earth that can be honest with themselves knows this already. Most times when someone asks themselves or other people "is this right" then they are looking for a justification.

COMMANDMENTS undermine free will, to follow the commandments of another is to act on their will, which in turn takes away from ones purpose for existing. our purpose is to learn by direct experience, we are not here to be judged or punished, we are here to learn, the lesson is love.

WORSHIP is to lift a being above others to shine and be supreme to its worshipers. This is a control by fear based idea to stamp out dissent, which a truly benevolent being would not have a use for, all beings know right from wrong and have the same feelings to each naturally. we all admire good (love) and we all despise evil (fear)
The idea to shine before the people is the opposite of humble, a true leader leads by example. That example will naturally earn respect, admiration, honor, and love which in turn will make those who follow want to be like this great example by their own free will and choice. so there is no need for commands, you cant teach values by force, you cant give wisdom, wisdom has to be found by effort, only then it is valued. All beings ARE created equal, in fact we are fractals of our creator (as above so below) we are exact replicas of the consciousness that created this universe, thus we are all equal. it is only experience that differentiates us.

You must understand that all there actually is, is consciousness. the universe we now perceive is the expression of it, that includes us....we are expressions of the creator. you can call the creator "god", however with the understanding of the origin of this word, and its true meaning and purpose, you would see why the creator is not a god...god is a title and the civilization it originates from are rules by kings and gods, all part of a hierarchy based on supremacy and ruler ship. It is not by mere coincidence that this mirrors ancient times for it is where ancient peoples learned it from. And although slightly different now, our civilization still stands on basically the same foundation of ideas. the fact that our civilization is unsustainable and far less than peaceful and full of harmony is proof that the foundation is seriously flawed.

One last bit of info then I will list many places you can research all this and more on your own.
to understand the true nature of who we are...what we are... takes an understanding of energy, for that is what we are. Universe = consciousness = energy which vibrates at an infinite number of frequencies, this frequency determines the structure of all matter which is geometric in nature. It this geometry that can be expressed by math like a language, and is the same at every scale from the entire universe down to the smallest sub atomic particle.

reply to post by scooter3200


sorry ran out of room...study these sources:
www.llresearch.org...
www.lawofone.info...
(it is advised to read "Secrets Of The UFO" before "Law Of One") found here; www.llresearch.org...
www.divinecosmos.com...
www.in5d.com...
futureofmankind.co.uk...
*NOTE: I studied the Billy Meier's case in its entirety and read all his books, its good info but judge the information by its own merit...I say that because I have realized that the point of view is polarized, which is very different than the book "law Of One" that will make more sense when you have studied both. easiest way I can explain is this: think of a magnet with north and south poles.
" - " fear,evil, all things bad...." + " love, peace, harmony, all things good... this is polarity, too far north or south means your polarized, if you are in the center you are in equilibrium which is balance, and in balance you are less likely to find yourself in a polarity war.

Also study ancient culture, Zacharia Sitchin's books are excellent. be aware of the fact that the same families still "rule" the people, and because of this "mainstream": anything is unreliable when seeking the truth, look at the so called alternative science, media, etc.....I assure you that the "official record" on any topic is corrupt and not accurate. as a general rule if it is Institutionalized its false....you have not been told the truth cause you ARE a slave...you are not free...nor am I, but I know once we all educate ourselves in truth we WILL be free and Peace and harmony will be earths reality.

So there you go, you can find the answer yourself...its the best way!

Heaven is the chance to continue in spiritual growth, while Hell is to be damned, or cut off from progression. I do not believe that people are condemned to Hell for the errors they make- the only wat to really be condemned to Hell is by choosing Hell over Heaven. An aquaintence once told me that I was going to Hell because I am a Mormon, and the only way to be saved was by recieving baptism from his church. That seemed odd to me since I know many people far better than he or I who probably will never be baptised by any church. Accountability is key in our relationship with Heavenly Father, the more we understand what is expected of us the more accountable we are for accomplishing or maintaining those virtues and standards. Ignorrance is not necessarily bliss though, there are great blessings found through accomplishment and understanding.
I didn't grow up in a Christian family, and although my father often quoted the golden rule, he doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell. Even so, I had strong Christian leanings since my earliest of memories. I chose to be LDS because it just seemed to hold closer to my core values than any of the other Christian churches, but for the longest time I was unwilling to castigate other churches by calling my church the true church. I am embarassed to say that the thing that helped me to finally complete my testimony was the continued bashing of the Mormon Church by other Christian churches. I haven't seen anti-Baptist or anti-Methodist propaganda generated by other Christian churches, and thoughThe Catholic Church may be frowned upon from time to time, I surely have not witnessed such a widespread campaign against any of the churches as I have against the Mormon Church. Mormons tend to be happy that people have found faith, no matter what brand of Christianity, though they are all to eager to share what they know to be a more comp[lete truth, but other Christian Churches repeatedly denounce and chastize the Mormon Faith as a cult or non-christian faith.
All you really need to do to get to Heaven is to do what you know to be right, and to repent when you stray; but be vigilant in the way that you measure the value of others for you will eventually be held to the same account.

Originally posted by HEATHERTHOMSON911
I lost my parents because of religion. My entire family are either church owners or are ministers in their faith. I grew-up in this environment. I grew-up in fear that if I did something wrong that would condemn me to an eternity of flames and torture. I eventually grew-up.
I am an adult now and I asked myself the question. The question being is: if I am going to grasp God and be so faithful and so devoted to that being, then I wanted to know what exactly I was doing.
So I searched and searched.....I kept on saying to myself that there HAD to be a true religion. What I found was the "Epic of Gilgamesh". It is the very first writing of human kind. That HAD to be the first, right? No...even that writing left a false taste in my mouth. So here I am...unsatisfied with the truth that I have found but hungry for the truth out there.
If anyone can help me, it would be gratifying for one to be without faith is one to float for an eternity.

Let's get something straight here - if your parents followed the Bible, and NOT the church, they would know - as well as you - that it doesn't matter what YOU DID. It matters on what JESUS did.

You are a sinner. I am a sinner. All of mankind are sinners. We cannot do anything about this. Jesus did.

The ten commandments? The 600+ ACTUAL commandments that exist? You can't follow them. It's true that if you steal, if you lie, if you SIN, you are going to hell.. but not unless you believe with ALL of your heart that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, gave his life with sacrifice, to die on the cross - to carry the burden of Sin, to BECOME Sin, to destroy it. To forgive.

You believe in Him, you go to Heaven. No ifs, ands, or buts. No tricks. Believe and you will be saved.

Believe me, you will continue to Sin, but you will be forgiven. It is not, "well, I sinned, I need to ask for forgiveness again." - no, you sin, and it was already paid for on the Cross.

See my thread in my signature for further discussion about "Christianity".

Honestly, you don't need to live in fear of "doing something wrong" with the penalty being death. You are free from that, if you believe.

God bless man.. I struggled with the same thing. Don't let Church leaders tell you what to believe - you can still go to church, if you want, to learn.. but read the Bible for yourself. Talk to God yourself.

reply to post by HEATHERTHOM SON911


The world around you is not what it seems.
To see behind the illusion, you must first seek the Holy Spirit.

Do not be deceived by those who would have you think differently.

So there you have it. Sin (and you will/do) but accept Jesus and you're going to Heaven.
Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, Charles Manson....all heaven bound. They've all accepted JC as their savior!
Not accept Jesus, but live an exemplary life? Hell. Sorry. You're not worthy.

Great.

As mentioned before, if your God is so all seeing, and all powerful, and all knowing, you've already got your card stamped. Doesn't matter in the slightest what you believe to be true, you're headed fro one or the other based on predetermined criteria. You were programmed to do exactly what you're doing.

Heather, you/we are mortal and here for a short time. Nobody knows whats beyond. Don't worry about books or rules written by men.

Live your life with love in your heart.
Simple.

reply to post by HEATHERTHOMSON911

Simple question
Simple answer
Try the Vedas

Is there a Heaven and a Hell?
It should not matter.
If the only reason I do not kill someone is because I fear the police then the fact I do not commit murder is not because I am a good person, merely a frightened one.
If I am nice to someone only because they are old and rich and I hope to be mentioned in the will I am not a good person, merely a greedy one.
You should not be good because you fear Hell
You should not be good because you desire to be rewarded with Heaven when you die.
You should be good because it is the right thing to do. No more, no less.
Heaven and Hell?
Not relevant