Socialists and 'The Fall of Capitalism'

Hi this is my first thread regarding politics so excuse me if i lack some understanding.

Now i know there is a fair few advocates for socialism on ATS here, as well as capitalism. So i was hoping one of either (both stances would be preferable) would be able to answer a question i have. If anyone is wondering i don't really believe either system has the fix-it-all economic solution to our world. I am merely looking for the answers.

I have a flatmate who is a bit of a socialist veteran and has been researching it intensively for years. He has many, many books on it. He believes that Capitalism is a heavily flawed system and that it will soon fall.

He believes that it will fall because it has a need to constantly expand. I asked him why this would happen and he says that 'this is a world of finite people and finite resources and that this constant expansion will inevitably be its downfall. It will all fall when theres no more room to expand'

This confuses me greatly... I always figured that corporations and companies can only exist if there is a market for their products or services. Therefore I believe that they could only expand themselves if the market and demand for their products/services increased. And if the market does increase, then within the company; profits, wages and product value should increase also. If there is no increase in profits then there wouldnt be expansion right? And when profits begin to decline then so does the company.

So why is expansion a bad thing? Why and how is it always expanding even when profits go down? And what the hell is this expansion limit thats supposed to destroy capitalism worldwide forever? Exactly what happens within the economy when this limit is hit? Apparently this is the view of a lot of Socialists and 'Great Thinkers' have, so i figured somebody here could answer my question. Pro Capitalists are welcome to answer too. Thanks

Originally posted by blarged
Hi this is my first thread regarding politics so excuse me if i lack some understanding.

Now i know there is a fair few advocates for socialism on ATS here, as well as capitalism. So i was hoping one of either (both stances would be preferable) would be able to answer a question i have. If anyone is wondering i don't really believe either system has the fix-it-all economic solution to our world. I am merely looking for the answers.

Believing that neither has all the answers is the most intelligent position in my opinion.

I have a flatmate who is a bit of a socialist veteran and has been researching it intensively for years. He has many, many books on it. He believes that Capitalism is a heavily flawed system and that it will soon fall.

I think this garbage system will fail because everything is screwed up... I also think 5 Billion people
shoveling all their money to 1,000 people is not a recipe for success. But I wouldn't blame that on
capitalism, or socialism, it is just that the world rewards corruption and wealth with extra benefits
that eventually compound into more and more corruption and consolidation of power AKA money.

He believes that it will fall because it has a need to constantly expand. I asked him why this would happen and he says that 'this is a world of finite people and finite resources and that this constant expansion will inevitably be its downfall. It will all fall when theres no more room to expand'

Well, I think capitalism is the natural war to opporate in the world. It is how you give and take
and it is symbolic of the work process (you give to receive, like you plant seeds and get food
in return) so I think it will always be the back bone of any system, but it is also very susceptible to
corruption because it is based upon competition. As we all know, many will try to win at all
costs, on such a large scale, it is hard to detect or effect large scale corrupt, manipulation and
criminality. This current system might fail when people get tired of the cheating, or when the
uber wealthy dicide to depopulate the Earth.

This confuses me greatly... I always figured that corporations and companies can only exist if there is a market for their products or services. Therefore I believe that they could only expand themselves if the market and demand for their products/services increased. And if the market does increase, then within the company; profits, wages and product value should increase also. If there is no increase in profits then there wouldnt be expansion right? And when profits begin to decline then so does the company.

The laws of supply and demand are complete BS in my opinion... They can explain somethings
but they do not explain everything and they complete fail explaining other things. It is the WORST
part of capitalism, people believe in it like it was a religion.

Inside the company you are mentioning above, you ASSUME that "wages and product value" are
actually of any concern to management. I think raising wages is probably not in the benefit of
many companies because that means management gets smaller bonuses. Raising wages is
only a good thing when you need to retain employees, or if you are not so concerned about profits.
In America, the top (imagine a company) of the citizenry are getting massively more wealthy,
while the bottom earns less and less. Meanwhile prices go up and up, which is why the top is
getting more and more wealthy. In theory prices should fall when the majority of people are living
on less, but here in America the opposite is true. Because the theory is a big pile of bull

So why is expansion a bad thing?

Well it's bad when it actually starts hurting the Earth or the people who inhabit it. If profit motive
makes people go hungry it is bad (for them) and good for the rich bastards who concocted the
"business" plan.

Why and how is it always expanding even when profits go down?

Because many businesses will go to China and employ slave labor to maintain over all
profitability. But this undermines the host population which creates more contraction of
the bottom economic rungs. then businesses FORCE people to accept less and less and less
because there is no other option.

And what the hell is this expansion limit thats supposed to destroy capitalism worldwide forever? Exactly what happens within the economy when this limit is hit? Apparently this is the view of a lot of Socialists and 'Great Thinkers' have, so i figured somebody here could answer my question. Pro Capitalists are welcome to answer too. Thanks

That is crazy in my opinion, capitalism is a good force when it is not destroying people mindlessly.
I think naked capitalism should be employed in small endeavors and democratic control should be used on
large industries with life essentials.

Capitalism socialism fascism and all ism's are based around a monetary system that will always fail.
www.youtube.com...

The elite bankers and their cronies are our true rulers and they dont care what ism is in place. eg Rothchilds etc
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
www.youtube.com...

All the ism's are just a device to impart a sense of participation on the sleeping and ignorant masses.
A control mechanism. Religion is another one.

And like mastahunta says and, I think similar, that its all just a distraction before the big de-population eugenics program is fully activated.
www.infowars.com...

Believing that neither has all the answers is the most intelligent position in my opinion.

I agree. But both sides are always competing with the 'i'm right, your wrong' attitude which at the end of the day doesnt get anyone anywhere because both sides generally walk away feeling as though they have won their debate regardless

I think this garbage system will fail because everything is screwed up... I also think 5 Billion people
shoveling all their money to 1,000 people is not a recipe for success. But I wouldn't blame that on
capitalism, or socialism, it is just that the world rewards corruption and wealth with extra benefits
that eventually compound into more and more corruption and consolidation of power AKA money.

Too true. I think that the people are more to blame then the system itself however. They become consumed by greed and subsequently become sociopaths no longer caring about their workers.

Well, I think capitalism is the natural war to opporate in the world. It is how you give and take
and it is symbolic of the work process (you give to receive, like you plant seeds and get food
in return) so I think it will always be the back bone of any system, but it is also very susceptible to
corruption because it is based upon competition. As we all know, many will try to win at all
costs, on such a large scale, it is hard to detect or effect large scale corrupt, manipulation and
criminality. This current system might fail when people get tired of the cheating, or when the
uber wealthy dicide to depopulate the Earth.

Absolutely. Not all of us care for others in the same way or at all for that matter. It also doesn't help that the media is full of liars and cheaters as well. Same could be said about government. While sheeple may be a little thick and dull they know when they have been wronged personally

The laws of supply and demand are complete BS in my opinion... They can explain somethings
but they do not explain everything and they complete fail explaining other things. It is the WORST
part of capitalism, people believe in it like it was a religion.

Don't quite follow you here. Care to elaborate?

Inside the company you are mentioning above, you ASSUME that "wages and product value" are
actually of any concern to management. I think raising wages is probably not in the benefit of
many companies because that means management gets smaller bonuses. Raising wages is
only a good thing when you need to retain employees, or if you are not so concerned about profits.
In America, the top (imagine a company) of the citizenry are getting massively more wealthy,
while the bottom earns less and less. Meanwhile prices go up and up, which is why the top is
getting more and more wealthy. In theory prices should fall when the majority of people are living
on less, but here in America the opposite is true. Because the theory is a big pile of bollicks

I'm talking about lets say... a successful company within a thriving industry. Wages wont necessarily need to be driven down in order to maintain profits. And successful companies (not always) generally do give their workers better benefits and better pay. And i agree that prices should fall. But don't they go up usually due to money inflation?

Well it's bad when it actually starts hurting the Earth or the people who inhabit it. If profit motive
makes people go hungry it is bad (for them) and good for the rich bastards who concocted the
"business" plan.

Yes but how does expansion hurt the earth and its people? Are you talking about environmental pollution and resource theft? Thats a different case altogether. Lets just say expansion without those two. How is that bad?

Because many businesses will go to China and employ slave labor to maintain over all
profitability. But this undermines the host population which creates more contraction of
the bottom economic rungs. then businesses FORCE people to accept less and less and less
because there is no other option.

That is one of my key issues with Capitalism. Outsourcing of jobs is evidently greed-based and theres no excuse for it really. Especially with all the redundancies that are incurred as a result. Such a selfish act.

That is crazy in my opinion, capitalism is a good force when it is not destroying people mindlessly.
I think naked capitalism should be employed in small endeavors

I'm glad we share the same view but not quite the full answer i was looking for. Thank you very much for your time. I shall look into 'naked capitalism' as this is a term i haven't heard yet.

reply to post by Lexx790


I'm sorry but i cannot believe what you are saying. Surely not all 'isms' are created by the Rothchilds. I believe that most ideologies (right and wrong) are created by either intelligent or wishful thinkers.

I get where your coming from and i know the 'Red Shield' is definitely a big part of our financial structure. But most of what you are saying is simply conspiracy theory. Not alot to do with capitalism vs socialism. There is no guarantee that ALL isms are built to fail as you say. But thank you for your reply

Originally posted by blarged

I agree. But both sides are always competing with the 'i'm right, your wrong' attitude which at the end of the day doesnt get anyone anywhere because both sides generally walk away feeling as though they have won their debate regardless

Well it is pointless, unless there is a synthesis of actionable ideas that can occur as a result of the
debate. Politics is a sport first and foremost, it has little to do with truth, it has to do with
psychology and manipulation and power.

Too true. I think that the people are more to blame then the system itself however. They become consumed by greed and subsequently become sociopaths no longer caring about their workers.

Even Worse, Nobody feels responsible for the results that occur on a larger scale because human
natural assign away their responsibility when a group can be pinned with the responsibility. So
anything goes and it is nobodies fault, everyone is innocent because it is impossible and futile to
assign blame.

Absolutely. Not all of us care for others in the same way or at all for that matter. It also doesn't help that the media is full of liars and cheaters as well. Same could be said about government. While sheeple may be a little thick and dull they know when they have been wronged personally

so true

Don't quite follow you here. Care to elaborate?

Sure, Supply and demand cannot work when supply is manipulated or when demand is fixed.
In California in 2003, Electricity went up 800% (literally 800%) the reason was because owners
of the electrical concern shut down various power stations during peak hours which created
an artificially created higher price BY 8 TIMES!!! This is fraud and all done by using the supply
and demand process as a tool to manipulate the market, the free market principle, as a principle
did NOTHING to prevent this abuse. Some Americans believe that the idea of free markets have
magical powers that stop fraud... They cannot accept that the idea can be undermined very
easily and that essentially it does not work.

I'm talking about lets say... a successful company within a thriving industry. Wages wont necessarily need to be driven down in order to maintain profits. And successful companies (not always) generally do give their workers better benefits and better pay. And i agree that prices should fall. But don't they go up usually due to money inflation?

Well the new American model breaks all the molds, we will drive up profits anytime it
is possible. This means attacking wages is a good business move in modern America
as far asI can tell. I know NZ has a different bend which is why I make the distinction.

Yes but how does expansion hurt the earth and its people? Are you talking about environmental pollution and resource theft? Thats a different case altogether. Lets just say expansion without those two. How is that bad?

Well look up picture of the water ways in India and china, that is due largely to expansion.
Or how about when People cannot afford to access doctors or medicine, or clean water.
Expansion does not have to be bad I guess, but it has the potential to be many things.

That is one of my key issues with Capitalism. Outsourcing of jobs is evidently greed-based and theres no excuse for it really. Especially with all the redundancies that are incurred as a result. Such a selfish act.

Capitalist nutters (religious types) will tell you greed is what keeps the world spinning around,
without reward, what would keep people working??? It is what compels people to excel and strive
for greatness, too bad it also creates greedy souls who make society dysfunctional.

I'm glad we share the same view but not quite the full answer i was looking for. Thank you very much for your time. I shall look into 'naked capitalism' as this is a term i haven't heard yet.

edit on 4/3/12 by blarged because: (no reason given)

Naked Capitalism ,no rules or laws applied by the government, business makes all the rules and
supply and demand becomes the only code of rules that society follows in economy terms.

AKA the evil side of America

i'm not too sure about the ideas presented, but i will say that socialism is not a monolith. not all socialists believe in one form of socialism, one way to achieve it, whether or not there should be a state system, etc. before delving into one's vision on socialism, and their opposition to capitalism, it is necessary to understand what each are. counter to most peoples' beliefs, capitalism is not synonymous with the free market. capitalism is private property over the means of production. socialism is workers' control over the means of production. that said, i personally believe in what i call the "gradual revolution", in other words, i believe that since the beginning of civilization, the human species and their societies have been making steady changes in their organizational structures, innovations, efficiency, etc., which have come about through various (violent and non-violent, grassroots and political, etc.) struggles and that, if we were to draw a graph of progress towards overall freedom and prosperity for all, we will find that while there have been minor set backs, overall we have been moving in the right direction and continue to trend towards improvements. i feel that as this natural process continues, with more and more education on the subject, the next step in this revolution will be that workers will steadily take over more and more industries until eventually the majority of the world economy will be worker controlled. after this happens, i believe people will steadily realize the same can occur at the political level and true liberatory socialism will be achieved.

syndicalism was a form of social anarchism which was popularized during the Spanish Revolution in which the CNT-FAI (a radical anti-fascist union) helped the anarchists take over the country for a three year period. the idea behind syndicalism was radical union organization to allow workers to overtake industry collectively and eventually overthrow the state system. this ideology was epitomized by the writings of Rudolf Rocker in his book "Anarcho-Syndicalism: Theory & Practice".

of course Marx is another place one could look to get an idea of the ills of capitalism and how it will be lead to its own destruction, but it is important to understand that this isn't the only source of information. if you wish to get a good critique of capital, however, read "Capital" by Marx. i would also check "The Communist Manifesto" by Marx & Engels, as well as the book i mentioned above by Rudolf Rocker (there's plenty of other literature out there as well that i can turn you on to if you are interested).

for some further info, check the following thread that i made regarding facts about socialism:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

i'd recommend reading the entire first page, or at least the first 5-10 comments. it doesn't really discuss the question you are asking, but it will give you a good baseline of knowledge to help you understand socialism and capitalism and to avoid some of the misconceptions that have been built around each.