Dolphins are Self Aware - Why this matters so much

Originally posted by RatoAstuto
reply to post by mainidh

 

Nice find, I hadn't heard of the chimps in Fongoli sharpening sticks. The others, what with the sticks in ant hills, is what I was referencing in my post. Maybe the other primates are a bit more creative than I thought, but I'll have to look further into it.

I still consider creativity the "gap" between us and other animals, but fully realize that there is always the possibility for other species to reach sentience, and even minor evidence that some have, in regards to the dolphins and their complex language.

And that is why I say that now is the time to act, before the animal scourge grows tall enough to challenge its master! Nuke the oceans... more so than we already have, I mean :p

Ahh I didn't find those clips etc, I just knew about them, and posted them. FOr me it's been a while that I've witnessed animals behaving in a manner that proves self awareness and the ability to work together.

We're unique in that we have an evolved language. We can share thoughts. Animals that have an ability to do so, can only share concepts.

That doesn't make them any less intelligent and self aware, it just means they are different. Many tribes around the world would not know how to use a calculator let alone a computer and would ignore any attempt at educating them to do so.

Yet we consider them human.

It's not about US and them, it's about US. all of us. a creature that can show intelligence and learn, is no less than a new born child. And some of them are willing to learn, but physically incapable of reacting to things the way we do simply due to physiology. A man born with no feet will never run a marathon no matter how many times you tell him how to do it.

We've taught chimps sign language and they've responded by using these signs to speak to us, in their own language. For instance, we'd tell them the word for Duck.. And they'd always call a duck a "Water bird".

It's not uncommon for this to occur, and it's even been shown that dogs have the intelligence of a toddler. Pigs are smarter than dogs. Yet.. every day, homer simpsons of the world chow down on pork ribs.

I think for us to think we are the be all and end all of self aware intelligence with sentience and self understanding, is the same as saying the earth is flat and the sun revolves around us.

Arrogance at it's best.

The simple cuttlefish. calamari to most. is by far one of the most intelligent sea creatures I've ever seen. Not one one wants to care, because they like to eat it, and therefore to eat something as intelligent as that, is pushed aside. It's just food.

We're the most barbaric species on this planet. Not because we do bad things, but because we do bad things and justify it. No other creature justifies their behaviour... and even if they could, we'd eat them before they did.

reply to post by mainidh


Now see, the chimps - and other apes - that have learned sign language are a good example of animals lacking creativity. When taught to sign many show proficiency great enough to learn all the necessary signs to comment on sights, tastes and other stimuli; or even to tell a story of what happened to the creature throughout the day. The thing is, they don't. Apes simply use sign to make requests, show affection and other such things; they treat it in a completely utilitarian manner. They lack the imagination (and whimsy, I suppose) required to use language for recreation or to relay information beyond personal feelings, desires or giving commands.

reply to post by templar knight


If this is true - and I have no reason to suspect that it isn't - then both Dolphins and Homo Sapiens share this planet as Earth's only species of human beings. You see, the human being is not the corporeal generation system itself (the brain and survival support assembly), it's the gathered Intellect whole that develops as a result of that corporeal system's effort to maintain and manage a full natural span of existence. The difference between these two corporeal wholes and all other Earth corporeal wholes is that their capacity for self-awareness forces their brain's authored dynamic information to have a vested interest in its own unique development, with a focus on inimitable Identity (information's own version of a survival expression requirement) since actual physical survival isn't an issue for any form of information.

This effort to craft inimitable identity for the gathering self-aware informational whole from one of these uber-sophisticated brains is carried on by the gathering whole itself - competing directly with the instinctive DNA informational directives with varying levels of influence - in a developmental process (called personality development) that focuses on vetting all information allowed into the short term memory of the brain itself to ensure not only cognitive consistency (for raw survival) but also to deepen established predilections and unique perspectives relative to the targeted identity that's been chosen by the gathering self-aware informational whole (or, you can use the word "mind" if it feels better to do so).

Those brains that are not sophisticated enough to achieve self-awareness do not have this self-vetting process as a filter, and rely on DNA directives and their brains' ability to translate those directives into survival action items. This actually equips these corporeal brain/body systems to better deal with normal survival issues, since all the judgment calls are eliminated in favor of tried and true methodologies established by many generations that passed on before, leaving those DNA protocols behind. But, the capacity to plan and anticipate - if properly applied - has always been a leg-up in the existential survival effort, even if the downside of being self-aware is that the notion of survival can get hijacked by the self-aware informational whole itself, and to the detriment of the corporeal brain/body system, since the survival of the self-aware Intellect whole is a very different thing than it is for the corporeal generator of that whole. In our species, that conflict is responsible for all kinds of self-destructive mayhem.

Because it's heart wrenching. That cute little animals have a sense of self. They are as real as we are. But it doesn't disprove God. And if that's what you're driving at, it doesn't compute.

Because it's heart wrenching. That cute little animals have a sense of self. They are as real as we are. But it doesn't disprove God. And if that's what you're driving at, it doesn't compute.

Maybe Delphinidae are the ET-GE Cetacean species of the sea, as we are the nominal ET-GE species of the land among all the other (now extinct!) Hominidae.

Well, at least there are multiple species of Delphinidae in coexistence, we apparently never played will with others

originally posted by: Numb3r

You should try the self awareness test, the one they use on children to figure out when they become self aware.

What you do is put a mark on the childs face without them realising, with a lip stick or something, then you put them I front of the mirror. If they look at the reflection in the mirror and touch the mark on their face then they are self aware, because they know that's them in the mirror, if not then they are not selfe aware, in other words they don't know they are separate from you(the parent), and the person in the mirror is just another small person.

Not sure how yo would do that with a cat though

There are many problems with this test, though. First off, it assumes that the animal would even care that there was something on it's body enough to remove it.

Second, it assumes the animal could even see this mark on them since animals such as cats have vision that is based on movement. I inadvertently confirmed this while playing with my cat using a laser pointer. My cat does not pick up the laser unless its moving almost like they don't even see it, but the second it moves, they react to it even if only with a sharp turn of the head towards the movement. Also, a cat's vision isn't a primary sense for them. Cats map out their territory almost entirely with scent and considering the average cat has about 200 million olfactory receptors (20 million more than the average dog), smell is a cat's primary sense. Vision is third at most. Cats do not use their senses the way we do and the test does nothing but test them against how we perceive our surroundings which is at best, unfair.

For example, a cat that has lived indoors for it's entire life will completely freak out if it gets outside. Even if the cat sees it's owner, it will still run away and hide and be scared of everything. They could even be able to see the door they came out of and still be completely confused and terrified and this is because all of it's scent markers are inside the house. Even though the cat can see you and it's home, it cannot smell it's markers and therefore doesn't know where it is and in the terror it feels, doesn't even recognize you or your scent right away.

Cats and many other animals do not perceive the world the way humans do. This doesn't make them less intelligent, it just means they operate differently and don't care about things we care about. This entire test is based on human perceptions and attempting to make animals live up to us which will never happen and because they can't, we deem them as being less intelligent. It's really arrogant if you think about it; all things must live up to us or they are not intelligent, not self aware, have no ability to reason or feel complex emotions. I believe they do in all these cases, but they do not express or apply these things in their lives the way that we do.

Personally, I find this to be short sighted and I don't think this test really proves much of anything. These tests need to be designed in different ways for different animals based on what we know of their senses and how they use them. It's like if an autistic person tested you for intelligence and determined that because you were unable to determine the exact number of toothpicks dropped on the floor in under 10 seconds, you were deemed as having below average intelligence because you didn't measure up to how their brain works. Not really fair, is it? That might be a bad analogy, but it's just off the top of my head.

I personally don't believe there are many animals that would care about their own reflection or their appearance. I can hold my cat in front of a mirror and play with her ears in a slightly annoying way (to her) and after a time or two, she will see my hand coming towards her in the mirror and turn around before I can get to her ear. I do think that animals at least partially understand the concept of a mirror and most likely do recognize themselves in the mirror, but simply don't care what they look like.. not even a little bit and would therefore fail the test through no fault of their own. I am sure self awareness comes in many, many more forms than we currently believe. It seems we only believe it exists in one form; human form. By designing tests around this probable fallacy, they are invalid before they even begin. IMO, of course.

When white man first came to invade Australia in the late 1700s, they made contact with the tribes already there.

Eventually communicating to a degree.

In one instance, the white sailors/hunters killed some dolphins near the shore of a settlement.

The local natives saw this and were aghast at the barbarity of these white people. Because to the native people, the dolphins are Spirit Beings, and some hold the spirit of past tribesmen.
The dolphins had herded schools of fish to the shore for the natives hunters to spear, they also helped keep sharks away from the shore to protect the people.

But the White man didnt understand or respect this.

This is part of the ancient man's Dreamtime, something white man forgot about 1000s of years ago, and replaced with greed.

Is it about time to reconnect with Planet Earth and nature again? Like we once did 1000s of years ago.

a reply to: FugitiveSoul

Excellently put!!!!!!!

Dolphins regularly get caught in fishing nets. They bite baited hooks and get injured. They get hit by speed boats. If they could talk, remember and process information this would not be happening. They might also wage war against us for our calloused actions that bring them harm and they don't.

No Dolphins are not aware like we are. Not yet anyway.

a reply to: Xeven

All things humans have done as well and more.

Hell, we have "entertainment" consisting of humans doing similar things.

originally posted by: Maxmars
reply to post by LightSpeedDriver

 

........
Then there are the primates we have abused for our amusement since centuries ago. we haven't even begun to scratch the surface insofar as the deeply significant discovery of cephalopod intelligence (squids and octopi) or the tantalizing hints of avian intelligence. All of these creatures display some characteristics or other which we though unique to humans.
...........

Tell me about it:
www. newscientist.com - Mirror test shows magpies aren't so bird-brained...

Dolphins can recognize themselves in a mirror... how do we know this? So they can press a button on a keyboard to get a toy. A mouse can press a lever and get food.

I am having a hard time believing that we understand dolphins and can say with any certainty that they are like us. Especially since we do not yet even understand ourselves.