Vatican Regime in Jerusalem - Coming Peace Deal - Jerusalem Old City Initiative

reply to post by EnochWasRight

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus would have never told us do what the Pharisees told us to do. He condemned their practices of twisting Moses for their own benefit. When you consult the Hebrew version of Matthew, you find that it really says to do what Moses says.

King James
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

Hebrew Matthew
3All therefore whatsoever he (Moses) bids you observe, that observe and do;

I am going to go gentle on you because I like you for some reason....but it is my job to rebuke, reproof and instruct (2 Tim 4:2) but with long suffering as well.

What you are saying is Jesus would have never told people to do what THEIR religious leaders told them....the fact is, Jesus said that very thing. The Pharisees were the most holy and righteous Jews OUTWARDLY, and told their flocks to follow the Law of Moses. This is what Jesus followed as well. What Jesus told His followers in verse three is to OBSERVE what the Pharisees told them (the Law from Moses as in verse 2) but don't live like them. (Do as I say, not as I do...this is where that phrase comes from)

Matter of fact, the Pharisees were the most righteous people in Israel outwardly, since the Law involved mostly outwardly observances. at least 90% of the Law was in this manner. Read this verse which confims this:

MATTHEW 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Showing the Pharisees were better than others. For in the Old Testament, observing the Law determined how Holy you were, not so much your mind or thoughts.

SO your Hebrew version of the Greek text in a English translated Bible (wow) gives you the wrong interpretation of the verse. It ADDS TO THE SCRIPTURES the word "Moses" and "he", where there was no such word to begin with, and TAKES AWAY the word "they". Very dangerous and conceited if you ask me..

PROVERBS 30:6
ADD thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
REVELATION 22:19
And if any man shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall TAKE AWAY his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus would have never told us do what the Pharisees told us to do. He condemned their practices of twisting Moses for their own benefit. When you consult the Hebrew version of Matthew, you find that it really says to do what Moses says.

King James
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

Hebrew Matthew
3All therefore whatsoever he (Moses) bids you observe, that observe and do;

I am going to go gentle on you because I like you for some reason....but it is my job to rebuke, reproof and instruct (2 Tim 4:2) but with long suffering as well.

What you are saying is Jesus would have never told people to do what THEIR religious leaders told them....the fact is, Jesus said that very thing. The Pharisees were the most holy and righteous Jews OUTWARDLY, and told their flocks to follow the Law of Moses. This is what Jesus followed as well. What Jesus told His followers in verse three is to OBSERVE what the Pharisees told them (the Law from Moses as in verse 2) but don't live like them. (Do as I say, not as I do...this is where that phrase comes from)

Matter of fact, the Pharisees were the most righteous people in Israel outwardly, since the Law involved mostly outwardly observances. at least 90% of the Law was in this manner. Read this verse which confims this:

MATTHEW 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Showing the Pharisees were better than others. For in the Old Testament, observing the Law determined how Holy you were, not so much your mind or thoughts.

SO your Hebrew version of the Greek text in a English translated Bible (wow) gives you the wrong interpretation of the verse. It ADDS TO THE SCRIPTURES the word "Moses" and "he", where there was no such word to begin with, and TAKES AWAY the word "they". Very dangerous and conceited if you ask me..

PROVERBS 30:6
ADD thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
REVELATION 22:19
And if any man shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall TAKE AWAY his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

edit on 21-2-2012 by KJV1611 because: i can

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees for their wickedness. John the Baptist did as well. They were corrupting the law with their own wisdom. Here are examples.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Jesus attitude toward them:

1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

2 He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ 3 and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

Despite the fact that Jesus had demonstrated miracles and wonders, they still wanted a sign. There is too much to this to see in this thread, so simply click on the link in my signature and read the articles listed. They cover this deeply. The leaders unbelief was robbing the people of the truth. See it here in this quote:

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Luke 11:52)

Do you see the attitude Jesus has toward the "Experts" in the law? The one law of God is love. This law fulfills all the law of Moses. Examine the ultra orthodox Jews of today and you see the same attitude.

reply to post by KJV1611

I am going to go gentle on you because I like you for some reason....but it is my job to rebuke, reproof and instruct (2 Tim 4:2) but with long suffering as well.

Consider this exchange between Jesus and Pilate:

John 18
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate.

Who arrested Jesus? The Pharasees and Sadusees. Here they are in action against Christians in present day. I am not against the Hebrews in any way. I support them to the point of being banned on ATS for similar convictions. My new username here reflects the fact that my old username was banned. What I am against was the same thing Jesus was against. The leaders and experts in this world stand against the truth and stand on the wrong side of it. I choose not to.

reply to post by KJV1611

Matter of fact, the Pharisees were the most righteous people in Israel outwardly, since the Law involved mostly outwardly observances. at least 90% of the Law was in this manner. Read this verse which confims this:

The confirmation on this comes from Jesus attitude, but also from the current attitude of the same religious leaders of our day. They have this attitude still toward Jesus. This is the same attitude that the Roman Catholic Church leadership has toward humbling themselves to the authority of God. They want to control this world using Jesus as their platform, yet they use human wisdom as their method. Jesus rebuked Peter for this very thing when He said to him, "Get behind me Satan."

reply to post by KJV1611


This passage goes back to this same attitude Jesus had toward the leaders who were seeking his death:

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Come on now EnochWasRight, surely you realize I know Jesus preached against the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee. That isn't the issue. And all 4 of your above posts are very much valid.....but they are not applicable to the original conversation at hand.

Your bible CHANGED THE TEXT WITHOUT any manuscript evidence to back it UP! The fools on the editor board decided they knew more than God and decided they KNEW WHAT JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT more than JESUS did. Do you see what I am saying? Jesus HATES these kinds of people (Rev 2:6, 15 Look it up)

They had no manuscript evidence to backup their textual edit......yet they went right ahead and did it! AT least the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee didn't CHANGE their text...........

Now rejoin me in this discussion without assuming I don't know what I am talking about. Can't believe you went through the trouble of posting many of the times Jesus was cussing the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee.......it isn't like I haven't read the Gospels...oh..15 times or so now.

reply to post by KJV1611

Your bible CHANGED THE TEXT WITHOUT any manuscript evidence to back it UP!

That's inaccurate. The KJB was translated from the Textus Receptus collection of Greek manuscripts. Modern versions are not translated from the TR, but are taken from the Westcott and Hort Greek text, which they relied heavily upon Alexandrian Codecies that had major portions of the text removed by the Gnostics at Alexandria. Example, the last 12 verses of Mark, because the Gnostics didn't believe in resurrection.

The problem we have today is because of corrupt manuscripts and the translation that came from two unbelieving occultists, Westcott and Hort.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Then wouldn't what I said....be accurate? I just checked you know..... No where in the TR does his bible have manuscript evidence for such an arrogant subtraction and addition of the words. So I checked Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus and even those didn't have the arrogant subtraction and addition of the words found in Matt 23:3

So........what I said is accurate...correct? Explain otherwise.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Then wouldn't what I said....be accurate? I just checked you know..... No where in the TR does his bible have manuscript evidence for such an arrogant subtraction and addition of the words. So I checked Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus and even those didn't have the arrogant subtraction and addition of the words found in Matt 23:3

So........what I said is accurate...correct? Explain otherwise.

Modern versions DO have plenty of "manuscript evidence" for a changed text, it's because the manuscripts are changed themselves. (example given: last 12 verses of Mark)

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well that is a whole other argument. You can't change manuscripts. You can copy down new manuscripts while leaving out or adding to it, but your can't change existing manuscripts.

But the argument was, Matt 23:3 has no manuscripts evidence in any family (Byzantine, Alexandrian, Western) for the Hebrew Matthew bible to change the text. The only reason the board of editors changed the text is because they thought they knew more than God.

Where are we not on the same page here?

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Come on now EnochWasRight, surely you realize I know Jesus preached against the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee. That isn't the issue. And all 4 of your above posts are very much valid.....but they are not applicable to the original conversation at hand.

Your bible CHANGED THE TEXT WITHOUT any manuscript evidence to back it UP! The fools on the editor board decided they knew more than God and decided they KNEW WHAT JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT more than JESUS did. Do you see what I am saying? Jesus HATES these kinds of people (Rev 2:6, 15 Look it up)

They had no manuscript evidence to backup their textual edit......yet they went right ahead and did it! AT least the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee didn't CHANGE their text...........

Now rejoin me in this discussion without assuming I don't know what I am talking about. Can't believe you went through the trouble of posting many of the times Jesus was cussing the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee.......it isn't like I haven't read the Gospels...oh..15 times or so now.

edit on 22-2-2012 by KJV1611 because: i can

We have access to manuscripts today that were not available when the King James was put together. We now know more than we did then. These finds are important to untie what you say above. You are correct that God was against changes to his word. This is why we should study the most ancient versions to know what the Bible really said.

Start with the second part of this series.

reply to post by KJV1611


Here is another commentary on the Hebrew Matthew and the seat of Moses issue.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well that is a whole other argument. You can't change manuscripts. You can copy down new manuscripts while leaving out or adding to it, but your can't change existing manuscripts.

But the argument was, Matt 23:3 has no manuscripts evidence in any family (Byzantine, Alexandrian, Western) for the Hebrew Matthew bible to change the text. The only reason the board of editors changed the text is because they thought they knew more than God.

Where are we not on the same page here?

Here's another. This was the original video that got me thinking on this issue back in April when it was posted.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Alright, that's fine and all. I guess to each his own We don't have better manuscripts now then we did in 1611 though......not sure where you got that. Even the dead sea scrolls matched the KJV

Jesus told the disciples he would return while they were still alive. The disciples literally thought they were in the last days. How was Jesus a descendant of David, when his mother was supposedly a virgin and the lineage came through Joseph? Either Mary and Joseph were relatives or they had sex, otherwise Jesus wasnt related to David.