Thomas Jefferson, A man of the past who may have seen the future

reply to post by tintin2012


No matter the differences between the pro and anti administration parties of the day, they all agreed on one thing:

EXPANSIONISM. Nothing was allowed to get in the way of that.

Jefferson considered expansion essential to perpetuating republican virtues in the “empire of liberty” he envisioned overspreading both North and South America with like-minded countrymen. He argued that expansion would neutralize or remove dangerous neighbors and provide a continuing supply of land to accommodate a growing population of American yeomen farmers. Accordingly, after the Louisiana Purchase doubled U.S. territory he insisted that “national security” demanded wresting West Florida from Spain as well.

Albert K. Weinberg, whose densely detailed Manifest Destiny: A Study of Nationalist Expansionism in American History (1935) remains an indispensable chronicle of U.S. imperialism, noted, “Despite the doubling of America’s territorial domain, the accession of Louisiana was not followed by a subsidence of expansionism.” On the contrary, Americans continued to regard the nation’s natural boundary “to be far in advance of the boundary that they already had.” “Appetite had grown with the eating.”

monthlyreview.org...

reply to post by frazzle
Thank You for that invaluable source and Manifest Destiny. I surely will try to read it as soon as I can.

I have to admit that I was saddened after finding out the views of Jefferson on the French Revolution and expansionist policy. That he would see nothing wrong with robbing and killing others to enrich his clan shows to me a hermetically closed mind. For me the real heroes of North America are to be found amongst the Indians, but then I suspect I am in the minority.
I recommend the book
Book

Originally posted by tintin2012
reply to post by frazzle

 

Thank You for that invaluable source and Manifest Destiny. I surely will try to read it as soon as I can.

I have to admit that I was saddened after finding out the views of Jefferson on the French Revolution and expansionist policy. That he would see nothing wrong with robbing and killing others to enrich his clan shows to me a hermetically closed mind. For me the real heroes of North America are to be found amongst the Indians, but then I suspect I am in the minority.
I recommend the book
Book

You're welcome. I was just as unhappy as anyone at discovering so many uncomfortable truths about the past, although I was just a kid when I learned them and got over it without too many scars. But can certainly understand why so many people would prefer not to know those truths. Which doesn't mean that they shouldn't know them.

The following snippet comes from a very pro Jefferson site:

In a letter to William Henry Harrison, written as the diplomatic crisis leading to the Louisiana Purchase unfolded, Jefferson suggested that if the various Indian nations could be encouraged to purchase goods on credit, they would likely fall into debt, which they could relieve through the sale of lands to the government. www.monticello.org...

The guy who warned about the dangers of debt .....

I still have my poor old dog-eared copy of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee right here in my bookcase. My dad followed the Wounded Knee uprising in the 70s pretty closely and kept me informed about what was happening as I was already living elsewhere. I won't repeat his words as this is a family website.

Have you seen the thread about Tecumseh yet? As heroes go, he's right up there in my book, too, far above Jefferson or any of the rest of the forked tongue land grabbers. www.abovetopsecret.com...

In a letter to William Henry Harrison, written as the diplomatic crisis leading to the Louisiana Purchase unfolded, Jefferson suggested that if the various Indian nations could be encouraged to purchase goods on credit, they would likely fall into debt, which they could relieve through the sale of lands to the government. www.monticello.org...

reply to post by frazzle

Wow, now there you have surprised me even more. Amazing.

Sad to say but the same trick was used on the people of USA. Credit cards send to homes without even asking for them. "just start using them and they are activated."

Now it is clear why education needs to be degraded as much as possible. So that the young people have no inclination to read about the past and instead are glued to their cell phones or tablets.

reply to post by tintin2012

Sad to say but the same trick was used on the people of USA. Credit cards send to homes without even asking for them. "just start using them and they are activated."

Yep. They write the contracts and the laws and make their offers but the only ones held to their signatures are the people, the writers of the contracts can break every obligation without penalty. The only thing left as protection from intentional debt slavery is the withholding of one's signature and that's a pretty pitiful defense.

But looking back, it isn't even so much the outcome of the ongoing westward push that gets to me, it was the founder's outright intent to take it all if they had to kill the last red man standing to do it, all the while smiling, smoking peace pipes and signing "contracts" they never intended to keep and stomping one tribe after another into the ground. Just as they're doing to many nations now under the guise of the UN "peace" treaty.

And they never intended to keep their treaty with the Americans either, which is why Patrick Henry said all the things he did against the constitution, not the least of which that he "smelled a rat".

reply to post by Uniceft17


I think he when he wrote the Declaration Of Independence. And when he helped write the Constitution, it was more so for the folks of future generations. IE: All of us. Who do we have now looking out for the folks of the future. No one.

And they never intended to keep their treaty with the Americans either, which is why Patrick Henry said all the things he did against the constitution, not the least of which that he "smelled a rat".

reply to post by frazzle
Patrick Henry must have understood that the British would not just back off. The prize was too big. They chose to use the subtle approach and get what they wanted one inch at a time while smiling as they did it. Their relatives, agents made themselves comfortable in the US and just worked away to change the "Agreement" until they had complete control. Bush Jr. woke me up to this fact and the Free Florida elections. It turns out that the full story of this was best told across the Atlantic. They have since plugged up this source of information by reshuffling BBC.

NAFTA, shipping out of manufacturing to China, free reign for Wall Street, Patriotic Act etc. are proof that it is not about the citizens of US of A that they are thinking. It is pure and simple greed and control. The top of the pyramid is getting crowded so in that case you need to give those below LESS. What better way to do this than Recessions, Depressions and Wars.

reply to post by tintin2012


Anything I say is strictly from my own perspective and hopefully others will do their own research and draw their own conclusions, but there were as many agendas at work behind the scenes then as there are now. Two of those agendas were personified by Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. In Jefferson's view, America would have become an independent empire that was totally separate from English influence; and Hamilton wanted America to become yet another vassel to the bankers of Europe. The angst between the two men was incredible, particularly during the years they both served under G. Washington and, no different than now, money and power was at the root of their differences.

From my reading of it, Jefferson wanted a debt free currency that would make Americans independent and free while Hamilton wanted a powerful central bank and government that would curb that independence because the "mobs needed to be controlled" and what better way to do that than by harnessing them to debt. Both of them had allies and opponents within the leadership, but its sometimes hard to tell which is which because what any of them said and did often varies, and Washington waffled worse than any modern administration trying to placate both sides~ or at least appear to be doing so. But Hamilton won out when America borrowed money from the London bankers to pay for the revolution they had allegedly just won. So yes, we're still tied to them ~ the "London Gold Fix" pretty much tells that story. And now it has gone global and out of control.

There was another agenda afoot dedicated to keeping the American people free of tyranical government and banking institutions alike and to stand by the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation which allowed the States to set the rules on most issues. But there were a few holes in the Articles, so when delegates were chosen and sent to Philadelphia, they were tasked only with revising and amending the Articles of Confederation to fill in those gaps, not to write a whole new constitution. But that's what they did~ behind locked doors and in secrecy. But there were leaks and Patrick Henry was only one who saw what was happening and attempted to spread the word to stop them. Henry is one of few who used his own name in calling them out, most of the other writings were done anonomously because they feared the powerful forces could and would destroy them. Those guys were called anti-federalists, although today we'd probably call them whistleblowers and we all know what happens to them.

So the anti federalists were the driving force behind the Bill of Rights and most state delegates refused to adopt the constitution without those added protections, although the ink wasn't dry before the federalists were using constitutional clauses like necessary and proper, the commerce clause and general welfare to undermine those enumerated rights. And they're still at it.

Its probably silly to even care at this late date, although it would be good if those who survive the coming implosion and final push for world government (which will undoubtedly fail in the end) to know how freedom is stolen in the first place in order to avoid making the same mistakes in rebuilding society.

reply to post by frazzle


Thank You very much frazzle. What you wrote makes a lot of sense and almost gives me the impression that you were there. Could you recommend some reading material to get a similar impression of this history.

reply to post by tintin2012


The New World Order is the British Monarchy and yeah they never recognized America winning the revolution. We are in Libya now because of what? And using British security firms to defend our embassy and look at the blessed job they did of saving our embassy workers from the jihadists.

Adam smith British Free trade, that is what is creating horrible death, famine and hatred in the world. Because Free Trade is Looting based on Imperial methods of conquering. Does not develop the country that the "Free Trade is happening in." But Americans keep getting dumb fooled and allow your ship to sink. A floating-exchange-rate system, and international monetary system, is a Satanic invention.

You don't know who the baby's father is. You can track the mother, but you can't track the father so easily. That's the British system, it's a free-trade system. Jefferson knew this, Hamilton also knew and pretty much all of the Founding fathers that is why we signed a declaration of independence.

Originally posted by tintin2012
reply to post by frazzle

 

Thank You very much frazzle. What you wrote makes a lot of sense and almost gives me the impression that you were there. Could you recommend some reading material to get a similar impression of this history.

Goofy as it sounds, it feels almost as if I had been there. But of course I wasn’t, so most of my impressions are based on things I’ve heard or read over many years of fascination with those times and those people so it would be impossible to point to one book or source even to several sources to explain what formed my perceptions.

For reading material, I suppose the federalist papers would be as good a place as any to start, then follow that up with the anti- federalist papers, and then re-reading the federalist papers keeping in mind what all the anti-federalists claimed the federalists were doing wrong. We’ve all been so focused specifically on the founding father’s vision for America that our attention has been diverted away from those who opposed that vision. They’re both cumbersome, but enlightening and informative.

The Federalist Papers: federalistpapers.com...
The Anti-Federalist Papers: www.wepin.com...

Also “A Plea for the Constitution” by George Bancroft: lexrex.com...

“A caveat Against Injustice” by Roger Sherman, another one of the founders, is a good source of information regarding the money issues: shermanlibertycenter.com...

And admittedly, some of my ideas come from a Native American perspective because the Eastern tribes on both sides of the Canadian line were so caught between the British, the French, the Spanish and the Americans, etc. but that’s just not a side of the story many people consider pertinent to American history. There are a few books out there that talk about their involvement and how they suffered on account of, or despite their alliances with one side or another, but its much easier to find their versions online just by googling the individual tribes and revolutionary war.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my pointy old head.

Jefferson was in Europe while the Constitution was drafted, by the way. Although he had most significant input via letter.

For reading material, I suppose the federalist papers would be as good a place as any to start, then follow that up with the anti- federalist papers, and then re-reading the federalist papers keeping in mind what all the anti-federalists claimed the federalists were doing wrong. We’ve all been so focused specifically on the founding father’s vision for America that our attention has been diverted away from those who opposed that vision.

reply to post by frazzle
It takes a bit of "maturity" to be able to fairly weigh both sides of a discussion. The average person is shaped in school, on the street and in the media as to what the excepted "narrative" is on a given subject, which when it hardens in their minds it is hard for a person to accept that they may be seeing things the wrong way. It takes time and effort to undo this.

Funny you should bring the Indians into this. I had my eyes opened as to how the North American Indians were treated by a 5 part documentary series on Public Television which I saw in the early '90s or there about. I was mildly shocked as it all went against the grain of what I learned in school (nothing much) and from the images in Hollywood version of history (lets call that propaganda). Then reading "Bury my heart at Wounded Knee" nicely confirmed what the real history was like. Suddenly playing Indians-Cowboys didn't bring good memories.

Once again frazzle thank you for you invaluable commentary as well as the other posters. Special thanks (I really mean that) to the OP for bringing this subject up for discussion because it forced me to look closer at Jefferson. As a result I have sharply revise my image of this man. Those stories and films about him and the slave girl just warped my mind into the dreamy space of bliss, not realizing that there was more to the the guy buried in the details of his history.

reply to post by tintin2012


No, thank YOU for having overcome all the schooling and propaganda the system tried to beat into our heads. I've enjoyed our conversation more than you know because it isn't often you run across someone who has done that. But as you say, recent movies and documentaries have helped more people make the jump from the knee jerk hero worship they were force fed as youngsters to a deeper understanding of what made us who we are.

Unfortunately its much too late for all the peoples who were lied to, harassed, chased from piller to post, ultimately defeated and penned up, they had so much to teach the newcomers about what makes life worth living. And now many of their own descendants cannot even speak their languages or live their traditions that were forced from their memories by brutal government and mission schools.

Of course we can't know what every day Americans in those days really thought about the westward march and the horrific scenes of massacre they left behind to assimilate territory, but I would guess there were those who objected, even as there are today concerning the horrific destruction of middle eastern nations and peoples.

So before putting Jefferson or any of the rest of them on a pedestal, I'd put George Catlin up there for seeing Jefferson's (and others) determination to put an end to these centuries old civilizations and for Catlin's efforts to capture much of that culture on canvas and in stories before it was gone. www.georgecatlin.org...

All I can say is "Wowwww" to those paintings/drawings by Catlin. Simply amazing. First time I see this.

reply to post by lonegurkha

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

Who are they?

sorry nothing more to add just curious of that one thing.

reply to post by ThePeopleParty



I believe that what is meant by that quote is that the government will come to take that right away. An armed populace is a threat to tyrants. Looking at todays government and their attempts to remove the rights we are born with, I would say that quote was a prediction of the future.