Simplified symbolism in Islam, good or bad?

Disclaimer: This thread is not meant to promote, nor to discredit any belief system. It only serves the purpose of a scientific overlook/discussion-board, in its relation to this conspiracy themed website.

So, i am eager to hear whatever opinion upon the subject, from anyone. The more point of view u have to over, the better.

According to my humble observation, islam has the simplest symbolism compared to other religions. Does this has anything to do with it being the youngest religion (emerging in circa the the year 600 AD)?

I grew up in a moslem environment. But it is not the kind that rests strictly upon syaria laws, meaning u wont get your hands choped off, if u were ever cought in doing a thievery act. So, i assume i have quite enough understanding about islam. At least on a basic term. Since i am neither a moslem myself.

Lets divide symbolism by its dimensional term:

- The 3D symbol in islam is probably the kaaba. Quite simple in nature, only resambling a cubic box covered in dark/black velvet.

What do u think about the kaaba? Was it supposed to free our imagination through its simple design, or was it meant to kill it, through the minor stimulation factors? Thus to avoid us from getting ideas, disconecting us from our creative mental state?

For other buildings in islam, some say, the mosque is just a replication of the solomo temple, so it is not a legitimate symbolism of islam. But what do u say?

- The 2D symbols are the biblical (quranic) caligraphy. In islam, it is said, that drawing/painting living creatures are forbiden. They dont even have a record about the physical apperiance of their own prophet, other than the ones described in the holly text.

Does this has any corellation with the term of 'anti cult of personality', or was it in the purpose to conceal any unnecessary information, that could threat the sacral institution of islam?

We can also add the way of clothing to the simplifications. But u also can think of it as an environmental necessity.

How about some quranic verse condemning music? Could it be viewed as an effort of simplification too, in any way?

Whats about the restriction (haram) of painting/inking ones body through tattoos?

How much of islam is realy in purpose to kill our senses, and how much of it is deliberating the soul through the absence of it? If any.

Please, feel free to comment and to add your personal perspective into this theme. Cheers

reply to post by coyote66


Muslims believe that the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael for the worship of one God.
But over time, it became a place of idolatry until it was restored by Mohammad who got rid of all the idols.

I believe the pre-Islamic Arabia was originally monotheistic through Ishmael and all the paganism/idolatry crept in slowly over time. Its not very different from how Israelites also fell into idolatry and the worship of foreign gods.

With Mohammads arrival, the land was utterly rid of idols and the land was restored into perfect monotheism.

First off, I would like to thank you for starting a quality thread on this topic that didn't automatically involve the crescent moon. While it is certainly the go-to symbol for most of western culture to characterise Islam, it really isn't islamic in any sense.

With that done, just to inform, Islam isn't REALLY the youngest religion, and it is debatable even on whether it is the youngest Abrahamic religion. After it, we have the Baha'i faith (which may be considered Abrahamic, even though it is more a mix of everything) and Sikhism, not to mention the religions that popped up very recently in the 20th century.

As far as your topic goes, while it is interesting stuff, unfortunately, I am not overly versed in this subject. I suppose you already knew that the english word "cube" comes from the word "kaaba" (which also means cube in arabic)?

To my knowledge, there is no actual quranic verse prohibiting music, but some muslims interpret the verse prohibiting "idle talk" to also prohibit music. Others say only specific instruments are prohibited.

Despite this, there are specific "styles" that seem to be "islamic", and as you say the beautiful calligraphy traditions that emerged from the middle east would never have come about without Islam, so in a sense they are used to symbolise it.

The major reason Islam doesn't really have any official symbol is probably as you said: aside from none being actually ascribed, there is the taboo on carving or drawing of living creatures.

Islam (and to an extent Judaism, notwithstanding the star of David and other symbols it may have) have this interesting feature that sometimes goes contrary to other religions. While many religions embrace colourfulness, pomp and elaborate imagery to attract members, these two are of the opinion that removing these trappings brings them closer to some "purer form". This does, of course, sometimes give the impression that it is more "boring" than some other religions.

EDIT:
Since there was talk of music, I thought I'd link a video of what is supposed to be one of the first ever pieces of Islamic song. Since this is almost 1400 years old, it has been remixed, restyled and redone a zillion times over, so it is really troublesome to find one easily accessible in the original style on the web. I tried looking for one with the only original instrument a "duff" (kinda like a tambourine without the bells), but the best I could find was one with no instruments at all. Even this one seems to diverge from the original style at about the 2 minute mark.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Yes, we all know what the bible.. I mean the qoran tolds us. I spent quite of my time in debate forums, also those about islam. So i have knowledge about this.

Ishmael was banished from Abrahams house with his mother, if im not mistaken. Their mythology were also the foundation of 'idul qurban' hollyday.

The kaaba was once also said being rebuilt by Mosses. Cmiiw.

Originally posted by babloyi
First off, I would like to thank you for starting a quality thread on this topic that didn't automatically involve the crescent moon. While it is certainly the go-to symbol for most of western culture to characterise Islam, it really isn't islamic in any sense.

Thank u, to u too, sir

Yes, about the crescent moon and star atop of a mosque, i have a suspicion that it resembles the 'all seeing eye', does it?

I asked about this subject once, and told, there were no actual verse in the qoran nor in the hadith, about the moon and 5 tipped star.

But then, why putting them on their holly house?

With that done, just to inform, Islam isn't REALLY the youngest religion, and it is debatable even on whether it is the youngest Abrahamic religion. After it, we have the Baha'i faith (which may be considered Abrahamic, even though it is more a mix of everything) and Sikhism, not to mention the religions that popped up very recently in the 20th century.

Yes, i guess u are correct with this one.

The Ahmadiyah for example, sometimes refered as part of islam, and as separate religion in another time.

As far as your topic goes, while it is interesting stuff, unfortunately, I am not overly versed in this subject. I suppose you already knew that the english word "cube" comes from the word "kaaba" (which also means cube in arabic)?

No, i didnt know that, sir Thank u again, this is a very nice info!

To my knowledge, there is no actual quranic verse prohibiting music, but some muslims interpret the verse prohibiting "idle talk" to also prohibit music. Others say only specific instruments are prohibited.

And some has the opinion that music was actualy prohibitated when combined with Khmr (alcohol).

Despite this, there are specific "styles" that seem to be "islamic", and as you say the beautiful calligraphy traditions that emerged from the middle east would never have come about without Islam, so in a sense they are used to symbolise it.

The major reason Islam doesn't really have any official symbol is probably as you said: aside from none being actually ascribed, there is the taboo on carving or drawing of living creatures.

Islam (and to an extent Judaism, notwithstanding the star of David and other symbols it may have) have this interesting feature that sometimes goes contrary to other religions. While many religions embrace colourfulness, pomp and elaborate imagery to attract members, these two are of the opinion that removing these trappings brings them closer to some "purer form". This does, of course, sometimes give the impression that it is more "boring" than some other religions.

EDIT:
Since there was talk of music, I thought I'd link a video of what is supposed to be one of the first ever pieces of Islamic song. Since this is almost 1400 years old, it has been remixed, restyled and redone a zillion times over, so it is really troublesome to find one easily accessible in the original style on the web. I tried looking for one with the only original instrument a "duff" (kinda like a tambourine without the bells), but the best I could find was one with no instruments at all. Even this one seems to diverge from the original style at about the 2 minute mark.

edit on 6-2-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

As of u mention this, it makes me remind that the flamenco music genre from Spain is actualy quite heavily influenced by Arabic style. Back since the pre-reconquista era. Of course we can also assume that the Arabic ethnical music actualy originated before the time of islam.

reply to post by coyote66

Originally posted by coyote66
But then, why putting them on their holly house?

It is quite a simple reason, really. From around 1300 to 1900, a period of 600 years, the Ottomans ruled much of Arabia (and reaching parts of Europe and South Asia as well). The symbol of the Ottoman Empire (which they supposedly took from the Byzantians when they conquered Constantinople) was the crescent moon and star, which they then stuck everywhere they could. Since throughout the late middle ages the only contact the west had with Islam was through the turks, they thought it was the symbol of Islam.

Originally posted by coyote66
As of u mention this, it makes me remind that the flamenco music genre from Spain is actualy quite heavily influenced by Arabic style. Back since the pre-reconquista era. Of course we can also assume that the Arabic ethnical music actualy originated before the time of islam.

The style almost definitely did. The song I linked the video of was sung to the Prophet Muhammad in celebration when he entered the city of Yathrib. While it wasn't technically Islamic in origin, it was preserved by the muslims.

Originally posted by babloyi

It is quite a simple reason, really. From around 1300 to 1900, a period of 600 years, the Ottomans ruled much of Arabia (and reaching parts of Europe and South Asia as well). The symbol of the Ottoman Empire (which they supposedly took from the Byzantians when they conquered Constantinople) was the crescent moon and star, which they then stuck everywhere they could. Since throughout the late middle ages the only contact the west had with Islam was through the turks, they thought it was the symbol of Islam.

So it was originaly a west Roman coat of arm?

Who would have guessed it was purly an Ottoman symbol, since it has spread worldwide. In my country is even a political party (islam based) named after 'the moon and the star', but im not quite sure whether they are Turkish. LOL

But it make perfect sense, after the crusades, the Ottomans rose power upon the islamic world. Acculturation took place.

The style almost definitely did. The song I linked the video of was sung to the Prophet Muhammad in celebration when he entered the city of Yathrib. While it wasn't technically Islamic in origin, it was preserved by the muslims.

edit on 6-2-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

A sign that no religion could ever survive without music? Acculturations happens everywhere, even in Arabia.

Originally posted by coyote66

So it was originaly a west Roman coat of arm?

I mean EAST ROMAN, not west.

Thank u.