Civilian vs. Citizen

Originally posted by Ezekial
In short, Citizens are people who have actually done something for their country and should have special privileges, such as voting. Civilians should have this right removed until they can prove their worth to society.

Of course, non-military civilians can prove their worth by other means, such as community service, helping others, saving lives, etc...

Non-productive hippies and anti-establishment fanatics, should have their rights, go live in the bush without society, live your own life and don't interfer with the establishment.

I am sorry if it at first sounded really general.

And, NO I AM NOT A NAZI if anyone was wondering or hinting in that direction.

Ezekial, when you say "people who have served their country", do you specifically mean military personnel or can public servants be included within this category, because they are also serving the country...well, they work for the government don't they?
Are you advocating the complete disenfranchisement of all private citiziens? If you are, that would be the end of a democracy and the start of some kind of apartheid like regime.
Going by your assertion, those people who have "served" their country would have the exclusive right to vote while the vast majority of the population would be left to watch in vain, so that means that the 50K or so military personnel currently serving (in Australia) , plus all the veterans and then all those people who come under the vague banner of "serving their country" would dictate the election process while the rest of the 95-99% of the tax paying population is left powerless???

What the hell are you smoking up there?? Are you a fascist? Oh, wait, let me guess, your a One Nation Supporter?

Originally posted by astarc
Ezekial, when you say "people who have served their country", do you specifically mean military personnel or can public servants be included within this category, because they are also serving the country...well, they work for the government don't they?

I agree, these people will be included.

Originally posted by astarc
Are you advocating the complete disenfranchisement of all private citiziens?

Only those who wish to have NOTHING to do with the establishment.

Originally posted by astarc
If you are, that would be the end of a democracy and the start of some kind of apartheid like regime.

And NO I am not part of One Nation.

No, it would be a greater freedom. If they want nothing to do with the government and stop voting, so be it. But don't complain afterwards if nothing goes your way.

And NO, I am not part of One Nation.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by Ezekial]

[edit on 15-9-2004 by Ezekial]

Originally posted by Ezekial
In these troubled times, war brings peace.

I'd love to hear the explanation for that one.

Your initial proposal seems a bit harsh, but I understand where you're coming from. I disagree about civil servants, however..........the civilian employees of the government in the US are the most arrogant and imperious bastards it has ever been my misfortune to deal with. I was always amazed during my service time at how cavalierly the civvie employees looked down upon the military people who were actually "doing the work". The civil servants at the state level are even worse than the Feds........laziest bunch of people I have ever encountered.

At any level, the civil servants in the US seem to consider themselves to be anything but! Their attitude is more like "We work for the government and are therefore your Lord and Master".

Our taxes pay your salaries, you SOB's! You ARE our servants, even if you don't realize it.

Pant, pant.........the rant has worn me out! Enough for now.............

Originally posted by Clandestine

Originally posted by Ezekial
In these troubled times, war brings peace.

I'd love to hear the explanation for that one.

Well, the world is in war ( i dub it the Third-Wiorld War) is peace really going to be achieved if we sit back and let the terrorist scum walk all over us? No. We fight a war to bring peace to our way of life.


Oh and I agree with you on Civil Servants, of couse if my idea goes ahead(and I know it never will, it's just something me and some mates cooked up) the whole civil servant thing status will be changed. Don't know how to combat arrogance. Yet.

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but I get the impression that because I don't agree with War and current Government policies, that I somehow don't deserve to live in the same 'Master Race' as yourself?

This master race of yours, would it involve you having priveleges over 'hippies' like myself? Surely the key to any organized & civilized population is the ability to make choices? For example, "I choose not to vote this year because I don't agree with any of the running parties" (this is just an example, I'm not an American) or "I choose not to vote for Tony Blair because I don't agree with Labour's policies" (again, another example)

What if, due to my beliefs, I choose not to fight in a War I feel is wrong? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the guys who are fighting for our respective countries, but would this mean that I'd be expelled from your image of the perfect race of super-patriots? What belief system would be acceptable for this society of yours? I think buddhism may rule me out?

Part of human nature is the ability to make your own decisions, when 'visionaries' like Hitler seek to make real their views on perfection, things become horribly distorted.

What we need is balance, not apartheid. We need to think, we have diseased this Earth and now her immune system is kicking in.

Peace

-T-

P.S. For the record, I have never partaken in sexual acts with trees.
I imagine this would pose a very real risk of splinters in one's most 'intimate' areas.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by tandino]

Originally posted by Ezekial

Well, the world is in war ( i dub it the Third-Wiorld War) is peace really going to be achieved if we sit back and let the terrorist scum walk all over us? No. We fight a war to bring peace to our way of life.

This �war on terror� is BS, absolute BS.

Perhaps it should be renamed, �Energy Wars�.

Lets face it, the invasion of two countries since 9/11 has done nothing to quell terrorist activity and everything to line the pockets of the greedy megalomaniacs we call our leaders and the �king makers� that put them in power.

Yes, the military would make their equipment, weapons, clothes, ammunitions, they would create the animals and vegetables for the food, they would make the fuel, etc., and they would also make all the things that the political class would need.

Perfect.

I have known a few guys who joined the Army for "instant respect" because they couldn't earn it themselves in civilian life.

If it wasn't for the rest of the non military population paying taxes, those in the military wouldn't have the jobs they have. Do you realise that their are only 2000 Australian military personnel deployed around the world? And 880 of those are currently in Iraq. Now I have great respect our military, both my grandfathers served in World War II, but those figures are piss-ant in size. Our military do a very professional job wherever they are depolyed, but in the grand scheme of things it is a very small contribution compared to other countries.

I posted this in a thread a few weeks ago but will repeat here. I saw a US advisor on counter-terrorism being interviewed on Lateline state that the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq would "not be noticed" and that the 800 troops there are just a symbolic contribution, and a fairly insignificant symbolic contribution at that. Bush openly stated that the withdrawal of Australian troops from Iraq would be "disasterous". How would it be disasterous to lose 880 personnel when there are something like 130,000 US personnel in iraq? I say bring them home where they belong and will be appreciated, and secure this massive country.

Anyway, as for your citizen and civilian proposal, it would never ever fly. Even by stating you proposal here at ATS you sh*t on every man and woman who has ever filled out a tax pack by claiming they are not worthy of being called a citizen. I have heard no reports about "Hippies" abusing soldiers coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan, so I choose not to believe it until you can back it up. I also find it laughable that any Veteran would be "too scared" to march on ANZAC day. The Veterans to "Hippies" ratio combined with the fact that there are more people who support our troops than there ever will be those who don't leads me to ask "What's to worry about?". I think you are over dramatising this.

I'll end by stating that if Australia was invaded, I would be the first in line for a pair of Auscam BDUs and a Steyr. However, I do not plan on joining the military to end up doing another country's bidding based on lies and distorted facts.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by cargo]

Well as I said it was an idea, it seems one I didn't really think through. I put the idea on here for intelligent conversation - and that is what I got. I am not one to be stubborn about a topic even after finding that I am wrong. I now see the truth.


As for the veterans being scared - I volunteer at the local Military Museum which is run by veterans. They have openly told me of their personal stories of people bagging then for serving, they have had vandals break into the building and deface their treasured items.

Two of these guys have vowed to never march in absolute fear of hostility - they got it originally when the ycame home, and have gotten the same treatment from a number of todays 'informed' youth activists who thinks it's funny to abuse people for sacrifices they made.
I myself have been abused in the street when I wore my T-shirt from my training 'boot-camp' = was called a "f***ing AF a****ole, go bomb some children."



So, in closing. There were some really good points that I have taken out of this.

These incidents you speak of sound isolated. And it wouldnt surprise me that there would be a few people out there who would do such a thing given circumstances where they would get away with it in one piece.

How old are these veterans you mention? Sounds like they are fairly old if they are scared by these individuals who dont fear for their safety after abusing a soldier. I thought they were Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.

[edit on 16-9-2004 by cargo]

Originally posted by Ezekial
As for the veterans being scared - I volunteer at the local Military Museum which is run by veterans. They have openly told me of their personal stories of people bagging then for serving, they have had vandals break into the building and deface their treasured items.

Two of these guys have vowed to never march in absolute fear of hostility - they got it originally when the ycame home, and have gotten the same treatment from a number of todays 'informed' youth activists who thinks it's funny to abuse people for sacrifices they made.
I myself have been abused in the street when I wore my T-shirt from my training 'boot-camp' = was called a "f***ing AF a****ole, go bomb some children."

Well, that does not look like the work of hippies.

And you can be assured that the majority of the Portuguese people thanks Australia for the help they gave to East Timor.

Originally posted by ArMaP
And you can be assured that the majority of the Portuguese people thanks Australia for the help they gave to East Timor.

Back when I was doing my undergraduate studies at University, our lecturer for that day and all of us students cancelled the class and walked down to a huge rally in the middle of the city to help insist that our government intervene in East Timor. It was a great atmosphere and entirely peaceful (As you can imagine given the purpose of the rally) and was time well spent.

reply to post by Ezekial



whomever wrote this post is obviously an arrogant american. you make me cringe.