Let's clear up the ignorance about homosexuality - I hope to never hear these arguments again

Originally posted by quietlearner
reply to post by Annee

 

congratulations Annee!!
you managed to make a point by point replay while still missing the point every single time and degrading the discussions to a I'm right you are wrong argument
but of course how dare I say something against gays!

Sour grapes much.

Please - - point out my errors.

Originally posted by quietlearner
there are some points I want to make and hopefully I will get mature responses to them

1) why do you bring monkeys to the discussion? just because some species of monkeys do it does not by any means tell us we humans should do it
2) I think its clear that a homosexual lifestyle brings in more risks both in sexual health and mental health
so wouldn't it be logical for us to try to minimize it?
3) another poster said that the oppressing homosexuality is akin to oppressing blacks and women, although there are some similarities I see huge differences

for example :
the hate against blacks was more of a hate based on feeling superior
the same with the oppression of women
in the other hand, the intolerance to gays is more of and objection to and act than a feeling of superiority
another big anti gay influence has religious origins, this is not that case with blacks and women (at least not in the usa)

these are very fundamental difference and changes the whole scenario dynamics
therefore I don't think equating gays with blacks and women is a valid statement

hopefully I will get mature responses to my three points and not get personal attacks
if you must know I'm not religious, consider my self agnostic, and I still don't have made my mind about where in this issue I stand. Although to be honest i think I lean more into the against gay camp

I will try to address your three points:

1. The reason for the animal examples is to point out that homosexuality occurs naturally, not solely because someone chooses an evil lifestyle, or has "Daddy issues". And, by the way, homosexuality occurs in hundreds of animal species, not just monkeys.

2. Promiscuous sex brings in more risks of sexual health, regardless of sexual orientation. I believe another poster commented that because gays were pushed to the fringe of society, they lived on the fringe, and therefore did things that weren't so wise. This is slowly starting to change, as gays are becoming more accepting of themselves as normal people, deserving a place in normal society. As gays become more accepted by the mainstream, I venture to say the promiscuous lifestyle will become less and less popular among the mainstream gays. Of course, there will probably always be a subset of promiscuous gays, but couldn't you say the same thing about some heterosexuals?

3. I think the important point to take away from the black rights movement and the women's movement is that a group of people felt they weren't accepted as equal members of society, and fought to change that. Of course, there are differences in all the movements, but isn't that the common denominator? And isn't it a pretty important one? Does it really matter why people were against each movement? Don't all people who aren't trying to take away anyone else's rights deserve an equal place in our society?

Originally posted by halfoldman
Quietlearner:

Yeah, people who claim to do 100's of exorcisms are not religious extremists.

I mean how dare we assume that they are religious extremists?

Oops, silly us.


Oh yes, and racism and patriarchy had nothing to do with religion (at least not in the USA)?
Really?

So now we are hated for an act, all the other people are just hated because they look different.

edit on 13-1-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

well is there a religion that says being back or a woman is a sin? there you go major difference
can blacks and women go about their lives without anyone noticing they are black or women?
gays sure can, another major difference right there

about the the labeling of religious extremists, I don't think it was you but there was a poster that said anyone against gays must be religious, that's not true

Please - - name one of these 3 oppressions that is not justified by the bible.

1 - oppression of women

2 - oppression of dark skin

3 - oppression of homosexuality.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However - - my position is Equal Rights.

reply to post by kaylaluv


Thanks for your post and explanations.

I no longer have the patience you have.

Originally posted by Annee
Please - - name one of these 3 oppressions that is not justified by the bible.

1 - oppression of women

2 - oppression of dark skin

3 - oppression of homosexuality.

which one of those is market as a sin?
and which on of those were mainly fueled by religion?
only number 3 stands

Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by Annee
Please - - name one of these 3 oppressions that is not justified by the bible.

1 - oppression of women

2 - oppression of dark skin

3 - oppression of homosexuality.

which one of those is market as a sin?
and which on of those were mainly fueled by religion?
only number 3 stands

As an Atheist - - - I really don't see the difference between "fueled by religion and sin"

What I do see are excuses.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Thanks for your post and explanations.

I no longer have the patience you have.

Thanks Annee. I truly believe I'm doing the right thing by getting this information out there. I'm not an evil person, and I'm not trying to promote a promiscuous lifestyle by any means. I have close gay friends who are also not evil people. They are good people - kind to others --even in the face of cruel taunting by prejudiced monsters -- even when told they must change their wicked ways -- that they will burn in hell, and that God will not forgive them their sin. They aren't hurting anyone, and they're not trying to cram their sex lives into anyone's faces. They are in long-term relationships, and they long to have families, like most good people. Why should they be made to suffer when they haven't done anything to anyone else?

reply to post by quietlearner

The Bible says women can be sold into slavery.
A man can sell his daughter in slavery.
In the New Testament 1 Timothy 2:9-14 says women may not teach, and are to be in silence, and their salvation is through child-birth.
Furthermore, they are blamed for the curse on Adam and Eve, and Eve was in transgression.

Under apartheid we learnt of Ham and some other verses that I do not want to repeat here.
But yes, apartheid justified itself with the Bible.
The same is probably true in the US concerning slavery and segregation.

Homophobia's probably the last socially acceptable way to give a minority a good dose of honest hatred.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
promiscuous lifestyle?

It isn't the gays producing all those unwanted pregnancies.

Difference between Lifestyle and Culture: Lifestyle is something we chose for ourselves. On the other hand, culture is wide spread, it encompasses more people, and may have historical roots.

Originally posted by kaylaluv

I will try to address your three points:

1. The reason for the animal examples is to point out that homosexuality occurs naturally, not solely because someone chooses an evil lifestyle, or has "Daddy issues". And, by the way, homosexuality occurs in hundreds of animal species, not just monkeys.

2. Promiscuous sex brings in more risks of sexual health, regardless of sexual orientation. I believe another poster commented that because gays were pushed to the fringe of society, they lived on the fringe, and therefore did things that weren't so wise. This is slowly starting to change, as gays are becoming more accepting of themselves as normal people, deserving a place in normal society. As gays become more accepted by the mainstream, I venture to say the promiscuous lifestyle will become less and less popular among the mainstream gays. Of course, there will probably always be a subset of promiscuous gays, but couldn't you say the same thing about some heterosexuals?

3. I think the important point to take away from the black rights movement and the women's movement is that a group of people felt they weren't accepted as equal members of society, and fought to change that. Of course, there are differences in all the movements, but isn't that the common denominator? And isn't it a pretty important one? Does it really matter why people were against each movement? Don't all people who aren't trying to take away anyone else's rights deserve an equal place in our society?

ok this goes for both kaylaluv and annee

1) my main argument here was that because monkeys, primates, any other animals do it does not mean it we should follow in their steps. yes it does occur in nature but what does that mean? does it show that being gay is not a choice but a hardwired response? only if you believe animals can't make choices and are purely instinct driven.
another issue is that while those animals engage in homosexual behavior are they classified as homosexuals? I mean do they only have sex with their same gender? this point is not clear to me
one point is clear though, just because animals do it should not be considered right

2) there is the issue about promiscuity and I agree that it can be changed given a change in social setting. However there are other issues about mental health and anal sex, promiscuous or not, that have a negative impact. I would think that having a homosexual relationship would be very hard on any ones mental health for various reasons
for example:
- the constant worrying that your partner might one day go straight and just lose interest in you (this I think would be hell if your partner is bi)
- the constant feeling of inadequacy due to being different to other couples
- the inability to procreate and pass on your genes, this to me is a very important point (another poster said that this issue is irrelevant) I believe that the human brain and any other animals brain for that matter is hardwired to procreate and once that ability is taken away, it might create mental stress

and there is this other problem with anal sex having many health risks, I wont go into details on this one but if you are interested a quick google search will be more than enough

3) there are similarities and there are differences, my point here was that when pro gay arguments bring in the oppression to blacks and women (both widely accepted to be wrong and with no basis of logic) their main reason is to try to paint the same beliefs people have about the oppression to blacks and women into the anti gays movement. In other words, when you bring oppression of blacks and women into the argument what you are doing is calling the anti gays equal to racist and misogynists. I don't think we should group all of them together

Originally posted by Annee

As an Atheist - - - I really don't see the difference between "fueled by religion and sin"

What I do see are excuses.

sin as in the bible means something you should not do

when I said "fueled by religion" that's exactly what I meant, religious people backing up a cause

I don't know were the confusion is and it does not matter if you are atheist or religions the difference is clear

Originally posted by quietlearner
The reason for the animal examples is to point out that homosexuality occurs naturally, not solely because someone chooses an evil lifestyle, or has "Daddy issues". And, by the way, homosexuality occurs in hundreds of animal species, not just monkeys.

Evil?

"Daddy Issues"?

Someone has issues.

Others can respond further - - I have nothing more to say.

Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by Annee

As an Atheist - - - I really don't see the difference between "fueled by religion and sin"

What I do see are excuses.

sin as in the bible means something you should not do

I was raised Christian - - - let's not do the holier-then-thou.

Fueled by Religion - Sin - - its all the same.

Some posters may bring up gay animals, because for a long time gay people were told: "You are unnatural".
So we show them nature, and how animals are indulging in gay behavior.
But are they happy?

No.

Then they turn the argument around and say, "Why you show us animals; humans are not animals!"
So gay people are designed to lose both ways.

Being gay means being sexually or romantically attracted to the same sex.
You do not need to have anal sex to be gay.
There are many kinds of sex, and you can be celibate and gay.
Gay culture has a history in every country, because it is a natural variation of being human.
In some cultures it was important for a man to penetrate, but since the age of AIDS there are other forms of sexuality and eroticism.

I suppose everybody worries about their partners.
Perhaps that comes with being in a relationship.

I do not think that having a child is the only reason to be alive for all people.
Michelangelo and Da Vinci contributed much to society, for example.
Not all people should have children.
However, in many cultures men produce children, and then they do what they like.
Not all cultures follow the radical Western form of being gay or straight.

I also think you are right that not only religion has destroyed gay people.
Stalin turned on the gays too.
In a certain sense some forms of religion offer gay people some protection.

It's just that when people link pedophilia and laughter as a part of the "gay agenda", then I cannot keep silent.
People will kill pedophiles here, and I don't want them confused with being gay, because that's a lie.

Not sure on blacks and women, but we have many gay black people and women in SA.
Some say they are double-oppressed: both by race and gender.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NOT!!!!!! quietlearner
The reason for the animal examples is to point out that homosexuality occurs naturally, not solely because someone chooses an evil lifestyle, or has "Daddy issues". And, by the way, homosexuality occurs in hundreds of animal species, not just monkeys.

Evil?

"Daddy Issues"?

Someone has issues.

Others can respond further - - I have nothing more to say.

those are not my words, it says you are quoting me but those are the words of another poster
I will assume that this was a honest mistake
also if you read carefully that quote seems to be pro gay
but yeah someone definitely seems to have issues, reading comprehension issues!

Originally posted by halfoldman

In a certain sense some forms of religion offer gay people some protection.

Actually every gay I've known is Christian/Catholic.

There is a gay Catholic church in Los Angeles. Of course the Priest was ex-communicated - - but he continues on his own providing Catholic gays with their spiritual/religious needs.

But - in America - - there is no doubt who the biggest anti-gay coalition is.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by Annee

As an Atheist - - - I really don't see the difference between "fueled by religion and sin"

What I do see are excuses.

sin as in the bible means something you should not do

I was raised Christian - - - let's not do the holier-then-thou.



Fueled by Religion - Sin - - its all the same.

edit on 13-1-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)

"fueled by religion" is an action, you can think of it as a verb
"sin" is a description, you can think of it as an adjective
why are you so stubborn
sometimes I dont understand you train of thought

Originally posted by quietlearner
those are not my words, it says you are quoting me but those are the words of another poster
I will assume that this was a honest mistake

also if you read carefully that quote seems to be pro gay
but yeah someone definitely seems to have issues, reading comprehension issues!

My reading mistake.

But the rest of your post does show ignorance in relation to homosexuality.

Alright...over on the big board finally!

Very good subject and needs addressed here on ATS...wish I could flag it again.

I don't think with miles of studies...and religion galore...your going to find an answer...if your even looking for one!

ETA: Was on the board for a second...hmmm...now not so much!