The old caliber debate...

I am a little sick of the 9mm vs. 45 debates. lets all get one thing straight.. There is no such thing as "knock down" power. No weapon except a tank will knock you down.. ANY bullet can and will kill you, regardless of how big it is, if it hits a vital spot, your lung/heart doesn't care how big the hole is, there is still a hole there. Carlos Hathcock, the famous Marine Corps sniper hit a charging vc 4-5 times with a 30-06 in the torso, the guy still didn't drop until he made a head shot.

That is a big round compared to a handgun. People need to factor in the determination of the subject, and if they are drunk or on drugs.. Sheer will, will make a person keep coming/firing until they are immobilized . Men have taken a 12 gauge 00 buck round to the chest and still kept on fighting. My point is, it doesn't matter as much what caliber you choose (to an extent), but where your shots land. People have dropped dead from one .22 round. Its all random. The golden rule for self defense is shot placement is king, caliber is queen. I would be just as scared being hit with a .22 than a .45.. FYI more people have died from a .22 than any other caliber, statistically. If you do not make good hits, it does not matter what caliber you have I am sure many of you have heard of the marshall and sanow test's. as far as 1 shot stops.. It is bogus. Handguns are weak, they aren't deathrays, compared to rifles.. Shoot straight and be safe. Happy New Year.


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I own a Springfield XDm in both .45 and 9mm.

Both are terrible calibers. I own a 10mm also, but even that is not what you want to have your life depend on.

Every handgun caliber is severely underpowered. EVERY caliber.

On the other hand it's all we have available in a daily situation when you leave the house.

I carry my XDm .45 most days, but if SHTF and I had to choose one or the other, I would take my 9mm.

Why? Military round. You might not find any more .45 bullets, but 9mm should be a lot easier to source.

Different rounds for different scenarios...

I love my side arms for close quarters proximity but my baby is a passed down sharps 45-70 FTW lol
Happy New year everyone!!!!

PS.. if that don't work piss on it ill bust out my death Ray gun and vaporize them works like a charm every time lol ha ha ha..... I'm so J/K be safe guys..

9mm is a very good round to have. Like stated it's a pretty universal round used by police and military so that caliber is very easy to come by. But I have had plenty of guns and could tell you by far my favorite caliber is the 45 cal. Puts a big hole in whatever you shot and it lets everyone know your not playing around when you pull it out. Get a 1911 45 cal pistol. I love them guns.

reply to post by USarmyFL


I've been into handguns for awhile myself and I agree with 99% of this except "one shot drops" not existing. Im no super duper shooter and I can drop deer and boar with 1 shot using a raging bull. Im pretty sure .454 will have the same effect on a human being.

Your post is spot on and I have been a shooter all my life (46 years) and can't argue anything you said.
I own a variety of firearms and calibers but none are a guaranteed kill on anything you shoot.

I carry a Sig P226 9 mm. half the time and a Charter arms Bulldog .44 special others. When hunting for seer and Elk here in Arizona I use a marlin 30-30. Most argue that the 30-30 is under powered for elk but I disagree. I shoot the 30-30 with exceptional accuracy and it has always done it's job.

Better a super great hit with a 30-30 than a crappy shot or miss with a .300 super mag. cannon.

The Elk that's in my freezer never complained that it was shot with an "under powered" rifle.

Forget about getting all caught up in the 9mm vs .45 cal decision or debate.. .40 caliber is the answer!

Now that was easy!

"Caliber" is no longer queen.


Directed Energy Weapons are now "queen". When they start going door to door to disarm the American people you'll never be able to use your old antique firearm. The new energy weapons will have you laying on the floor in pain, you won't even know what's going on.

Now that they've got thermal imagers being cheaply made they can see you inside your home and zap a infrared laser at the gas shock in the computer chair you're sitting in. The increase in pressure inside the shock from the heat of the infrared laser will blast the piston/shaft straight up through your keister. And that's if they want to be humane when they take you out.

They could use your computers wifi and feed the RFID chip in you pulsated energy to create a magnetic field to kill you slowly by causing cancer, maybe even drop your white blood cell count until nature takes its course....

Firearms will not be the tools of defense in the 21st century. Grasp the technology that exists today....people could start dropping dead and most people wouldn't know why they died.

I was going to make a thread about this some time ago.

I'm glad you did, however. The caliber debate is a bogus one.

That said, the size of the bullet does count in how much damage one does. If your only goal is to make a mess, the bigger the better. BUT if your goal is to protect yourself and stop an attacker it matters not the size of the round but where you put it(giggity).

With modern defensive handgun bullet technology the caliber question is indeed moot with the exception of one thing. That one thing being how fast you can put a second shot into someone after the first. Because no matter how much you want to place your shots accurately, in the heat of the moment any number of things can cause that perfect shot to go wide or high or low. It's for this reason that I always try to convince people they don't necessarily want a hand cannon. Personally I carry what some would consider a way underpowered handgun.

I carry a cz 82 in 9mm makarov or my cz 83 in .380. Some will say that these are subpar choices for a defensive handgun, but I can place a fast and accurate first second and third shot with either of these pistols before most guys can get off 2 shots with their big bore handcannons. Either of which they may just miss with because they flinch from the recoil of each shot.

The Bottom Line IMHO is to carry something you are comfortable and QUICK with, because in most defensive situations milliseconds can and will be crucial in deciding whether your action is just in time or too late.

Makes me think of that old James W Rosier stamped Webley .577 my uncle inherited from my grandfather. Talk about a caliber on that puppy for a revolver. Too bad they only made them for a little over a year, and back in the 1870s...

When I shoot @ reactive targets at our gunrange, at 50 yards, I notice that my 45 acp ---- has more ompf --- than my 9mm. What makes a 45 acp, better than a 9mm ---- It makes a bigger hole. A bigger hole on target paper, can mean the difference between winning and losing; not to mention on what it can do to a human being.

Originally posted by YouAreLiedTo
I own a Springfield XDm in both .45 and 9mm.

Both are terrible calibers. I own a 10mm also, but even that is not what you want to have your life depend on.

Every handgun caliber is severely underpowered. EVERY caliber.

On the other hand it's all we have available in a daily situation when you leave the house.

I carry my XDm .45 most days, but if SHTF and I had to choose one or the other, I would take my 9mm.

Why? Military round. You might not find any more .45 bullets, but 9mm should be a lot easier to source.

Different rounds for different scenarios...

I don't consider my 454 Casull round, meant for my Ruger Super Redhawk pistol to be "underpowered."

I can safely say, that my 454 Casull pistol, can put down any animal or reptile on this planet.

Originally posted by projectvxn
it matters not the size of the round but where you put it(giggity).

That's what she said! (damn I wish you were around to appreciate that!) lol

In all seriousness 3 things stop a fight.

#1 a CNS (Central Nervous System) shot.

This is either putting a round in the brainbox or rounds high torso severing the spinal column. It's an instant fight stopper , you get hit in the brain housing group and it's lights out , you take 1 or two well placed rounds high torso to your spine and the signals can no longer go from your brain to your body , you're still conscious but no longer a threat i.e. paralyzed. THIS IS THE ONLY INSTANT FIGHT STOPPER

#2 Loss of blood pressure (Bleeding Out)

If you're hit in the heart , a major artery or suffer multiple hits to major organs (Liver , Kidneys) you'll lose blood really quickly. How quickly depends on where you're hit and your heart rate. Your average man's heart pumps about a gallon and a half of blood a minute at a resting heart rate , if you're running for your life or experiencing an adrenaline dump , your heart rate can double to almost 3 gallons a minute.

A loss of 20% of your blood volume results in unconsciousness in most cases.

Assuming your heart is pumping as fast as it can and you've experienced a catastrophic wound , in theory you can bleed out in about 5 seconds (Lose 20%) , add a few more seconds for your body to burn up the oxygen that is still stored in the blood and you can still be in the fight up to half a minute , that is with the perfect shot under the perfect conditions.

Why is that a problem? Well if the badguy is still conscious (dead but doesn't know it yet) he can still shoot at you , therefore he can still possibly kill you. You have to wait for his brain to stop receiving oxygen from his cardiovascular system , this can take time... time you don't have.

#3 is the "Psyche-out"

Upon being in involuntary possesion of a projectile (Being Shot) a person may think... I've been shot , that must mean I'm dead (or going to die) and give up the will to fight. People watch movies and tv and see that when a person gets shot, they fall dead right there , so life imitates art. Also if a person receives a wound that exceeds their threshold for pain they may "give it up" if you're lucky this might happen however it's not likely. The will to live is strong in most and many times people are shot and initially may not even know they are hit , now add whatever chemichal cocktail the person may be under the influence of or mental state and the chances of a person being shot and instantly stopping aggression are slim.

(Look Up the Peter Soulis incident) A man was shot 22 times with .40 cal JHP's including 17 CENTER MASS HIT's and still had the drive to fire at a police officer and make 4 hits. The badguy died from his wounds Officer Soulis was saved by his vest.


Now why did I go through all of that in a "caliber debate" forum?

Here's the deal , everyone has their favorite caliber and with the current performance of 9mm +p JHP's and pistol capacities from 15 (Glock 19) to 20 (Sig 226) rounds. I wouldn't feel outgunned If I was carrying either of those pistols and I find the caliber debate a moot point. What is important is SHOT PLACEMENT!!! "speed is fine but accuracy is final" and "You can't miss fast enough" are some of my favorite quotes.

I advise anyone to #1 enroll in a proffesionally taught tactical pistol course and #2 carry whatever service caliber pistol they can make fast accurate consistant hits with and keep shooting until the threat is gone.

For inquiring minds , I carry a .45 and I run Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP's.

People with that kind of drive after being shot that many times has a serious drug probably and probably needs to get off the crystal meth and crank. I read a home defense mag one time that had a article about a old lady shooting a bad guy with a 22 cal dead between the eyes. Lets just say that's what you call a kill shot with any caliber.

I also agree take a couple gun classes and shot your gun as regularly as possible. The statement practice makes perfect was not stated for no reason.

Also never forget that TopElite says Guns don't kill people...Strategic Bullet placement does. :-)


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Just as an addendum remember only perfect practice makes perfect. IF you practice in a slisphod manner you will fight in said slipshod manner. Those little bad habits on the range can cost you your life.

Well it kinda goes without saying. Hopefully when you practice you practice for perfection or close to it. Do you know anyone who practices free throws and try to air ball it? Come on now lol.

Practice good methods and actually hitting target with accuracy and precision. Also with some form of speed and you will be a good shooter.

"I figure, for most 45 ammunition 50 yards is about the maximum I want to stretch it on a living animal. Obviously, the .45 isn't a 'mash em flat' magnum, and with a relatively low powered gun the importance of shot placement is paramount. For a double lung or heart shot on any medium game, expect the animal to run. That happens with any caliber, but few will drop in their tracks from a .45 unless the brain or spine is hit.

Hunting with .45 puts more 'hunting' into hunting, with added emphasis on shooting skill. Hit em where they live
---- repeatedly --- for best results."

Quote from: Handgun hunting, by J.D. Jones, American Handgunner, Jan./Feb., 2012

Originally posted by mwood
Your post is spot on and I have been a shooter all my life (46 years) and can't argue anything you said.
I own a variety of firearms and calibers but none are a guaranteed kill on anything you shoot.

I carry a Sig P226 9 mm. half the time and a Charter arms Bulldog .44 special others. When hunting for seer and Elk here in Arizona I use a marlin 30-30. Most argue that the 30-30 is under powered for elk but I disagree. I shoot the 30-30 with exceptional accuracy and it has always done it's job.

Better a super great hit with a 30-30 than a crappy shot or miss with a .300 super mag. cannon.

The Elk that's in my freezer never complained that it was shot with an "under powered" rifle.

Yup - I know (and hunt with) guys that drop deer on the spot with a .223. It works fine for the. In fact, it works perfect for them. I would not recommend it for the average shooter but they are very, very accurate with it in most any position. So it works great for them.

I guess the moral of the story is - Where you put it is more important than how big it is.

you'd actually be very surprised at how many people go to the range and goof off with their weapons and then consider it serious practice.

Another thing I'd like to point out for those just starting down the path of training with defensive handguns or rifles is that SMOOTH is FAST...

What I mean by this is don't start out with the intention of being fast. Work your basic skill building exercises such as practice drawing and basic manipulations as smoothly as possible. Focus on doing the manipulation the exact same way as smooth as you possibly can make it happen and you will:

1: Develop muscle memory that allows you to repeat this action without conscious thought in an emergency
2: Your speed will increase to levels that you can't hope to attain by just practicing to be fast.

I have found that when I practice while keeping this in mind my practices go better and I achieve better results.