The Last Battle..........................

The Scriptures list a number of Ancient nations ,
each stemming from a descendant of Noah,
which are to come against Israel.

Various commentators have associated these nations with modern countries or peoples, and some have confidently predicted the players and progression of the world's last,climactic battle.

As the world's contemporary political landscape changes, however, these prognostications tend to ebb and flow(much like the calculated date of Christ's Return)

Daniel records the following scene: ''''At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the
king of the North shall come against him like a whirwind,
with chariots,horsemen,and with many ships;and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.............He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver,and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.

But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many........Yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him''''(Daniel 11:40-45 )

Whoever the earthly participants in this ghastly conflict may ultimately be,the real contestants are clearly Christ and Satan: '''''And i saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him[Christ] who sat on the horse and against His army''''(Revelation 19:19).

............taken from ''''''Ultimate things''''by Dennis E. Englemann...........................

who do you think these countries are?

Last time I checked the modern world isnt using chariots or horsemen anymore .

...........this scene is from Armageddon..........Right before the end of this world........


''''Another horse, fiery red,went out''',wrote Saint John.
''''And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword'''(Revelation 6:4 )

Everything about this battle is extraordinary.Beyond the human warriors, there will be the working of unseen powers-voices,thunders and lightning.''''And they gathered them together to the place in Hebrew,Armageddon.

Then the seventh angelpoured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne , saying,''It is done!''.And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and a great earthquake as had not occured since men were on earth'''(Revelation 16:16 - 18 )

DRY RIVERS

Two passages from the Book of Revelation indicate that the Euphrates River will be dried up and a great army from the East will advance acoss it.'''Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared'''(Revelation 16:12 )
(The scene here is right before the end of the world )

'''And i heard a voice from the four horns of the golden alter which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet,'' Release the four angels who are bound at te great river Euphrates.''So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million''''(Revelation 9:13-16)

Casualties from this fighting will cause immense bloodshed.'''So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth,a nd threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs''''(Revelation 14:19, 20 )
[As Archbishop Averky explained, ''The hyperbolic expression used here by the holy seer of mysteries indicates that the defeat of the enemies of God will be so terrible that the blood will flow as if in rivers''''.

Carnage will be so extreme that bodies will lie rotting and unattended.All that was cosidered valuable in the world will seem as filth, and people will search everywhere for someplace to escape.

''''There will be no place to run away or hide'', cautions Saint Ephraim the Syrian(dc 300 ),''''''For everything will be in confusion on sea and land.....The stench will hang over both sea and land; hunger, earthquakes, confusion, and calamities will abound.......All will regard as blessed those dead who were buried before such grief came to earth.
Gold and silver will be scattered over the streets, and no one willtouch them for everything has become an abomination.''

Christians can be consoled in that this incredible war represents the final event before Christs Return.
With its conclusion, all ''wars and rumours of wars'' (Mark 13: 7 ) will cease.[reign of Jesus Christ on earth for 1,000 yrs was condemned in 325A.D ,Apostles Creed ---the unaltered one.....orthodoxy still use the same ]




[Edited on 13-4-2003 by helen670]

Originally posted by Tetsuo-51
Last time I checked the modern world isnt using chariots or horsemen anymore

.

Are you kidding???

WOW, when did that happen???............... just a little humour ......

At what point does the Bible say the Great Restrainer will be lifted away, at which time the Christians will have to go as well (elsewise Christ is a liar as He said He must go but another One will come and He will never leave us)?

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Helen670 before we can really discuss end times must know the following:
Do you take a pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture stance. The answer
to this question always affects end times doctrine.

The """rapture'""" developed from a series of visions experienced by a Scotitish woman named Margeret Macdonald in 1830..She beleived that a''' spirit of prophecy''' had revealed to her that, prior to Christ's Second Coming, He would come secretely to remove all the Christians from the earth....

The concept of Christ rapturing beleivers was completely unknown during the first thousand yrs of Christian history, during which time there was but one Christian Faith throughout the world.
The Seven Ecumenical Councils of A.D.325 through 787, in which all the essential doctrines of Christian Truth were declared, never mentioned a rapture.

''''Even the elect will suffer on earth during the 'tribulation' period,and for their sake this period will be shortened (Matthew. 24:21-22 )

'''''For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be '''(Matthew 24: 27 ) .

(ther's more info on' the rapture'' if you like)

[Edited on 13-4-2003 by helen670]

The period of the Great Tribulation and the rapture are two different times, obviously, and the Coming of Christ, when He steps onto the land and when He calls His church are two different times. Also, those who are the elect during the Trib period are not the same as those on this side of the Rapture.
I don't know what they understood a thousand years ago, and I know nothing about any Scottish folk to whom you refer, nor does it matter. I read it, I understand it from the knowledge God allows me at this time. All I know is when the Great Restrainer is lifted off the face of the earth and evil is allowed full rein, don't look for me as I won't be here. I'll have to be gone with the Restrainer, or else Christ lied, and if that be the case, it is all a moot point.

The Rapture�s supporters derive their opinions ultimately from a single Scripture verse,
I Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we who are left alive will be carried off together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,
and thus we shall always be with the Lord." Less popular but often cited is Matthew 24:40-42,
"Then there will be two in the field. One will be taken and the other left. Two will be grinding at the mill. One will be taken and the other left. Therefore, be vigilant, for you do not know on what day your Lord will come."

The paragraph which contains the first verse quoted above, I Thessalonians 4:17, forms the Epistle reading for funerals in Orthodox worship. The passage begins with 4:13. In preceding verses St. Paul has spoken of the necessity for holiness of life and for brotherly love among Christians (4:1-12). With verse 13 he turns to another topic, the fate of Christians after death. Misunderstandings on this issue had apparently caused needless distress and apprehension in the church at Thessalonika. It seems that some people believed that Christians who died before Christ�s return would somehow miss out on that glorious event. St. Paul seeks to calm their fears (vs. 13).
He points out that as Christ returned from the dead at His Resurrection
, so also, at the end of time, His followers who have died in the interim will be restored through resurrection (vs. 14).
At the Second Coming, the Christian dead will be raised (vs. 16). Then they and the faithful who are still alive will be caught up into the clouds to welcome Christ as He descends (verses 15,17). Paul then discusses other matters relating to the Second Coming, beginning with the date it will occur.

When we look at verse 17 in context,
it is easy to see that is does not really support the doctrine of the Rapture. There is no reference to a Great Tribulation or to any other events preceding Christ�s Return.

The verse refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord�s Coming.
The course of events St. Paul presents is simple and straight-forward.
At the time of the Second Coming, the dead will be raised, and all the faithful � the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured � will ascend to be with Him as He comes down.

This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers who see the verse as referring to the last days.

Why does St. Paul speak of an ascension of the righteous?

The Fathers suggest at least three answers to this question. St. Gregory of Nyssa says that the ascension is a natural consequence of the purity of the transfigured resurrection body: "...this change which takes place...
when the resurrection trumpet sounds which awakens the dead in an instant transforms those who are left alive to incorruptibility according to the likeness of those who have undergone the resurrection change, so that the bulk of the flesh is no longer heavy nor does its weight hold them down to earth, but they rise up through the air..." ("On the Making of Man" 22,6).

St. John Chrysostom and others say that it is to provide Christ with a proper escort for His appearance on earth and to demonstrate His favor toward the faithful. "If He is about to descend, why shall we be taken up?
For the sake of honor. When a king enters a city, those who are in his favor go out to meet him, but the condemned await their judge inside. Or, when a loving father comes, his children, and also those worthy of being his children, are taken out in a chariot to see and kiss him, but the servants who have offended him remain indoors.
So we are carried out upon a chariot to our Father...See how great our honor is?

As He descends we go out to meet Him, and what is more blessed, we shall be with Him always" (Homily 8 on Thessalonians).

Let us summarize what we have found so far. St. Paul does speak of a sort of rapture, in the sense of a carrying up into the sky of the righteous at the time of the Second Coming.
The Fathers generally agree on that.
But St. Paul and the Fathers see this as an event which accompanies Christ�s return and immediately precedes the Judgment and the establishment of the Kingdom.
The Rapture which Darby and Scofield taught and which Lindsey, Walvoord, and others still teach, is different from that.

They talk about it as a separate happening, part of a decades long program of events leading up to Christ�s Coming.
The dispensationalists see the Rapture as the disappearance of the faithful from the earth before the Great Tribulation and many years before the Judgment.

This is foreign to the Apostle and to the Tradition. St. Paul mentions no period of affliction and persecution following the Rapture.


In an effort to forge a link between the Rapture and the Tribulation, supporters turn to Matthew 24:40-42, quoted above (in part 1, September�s Dawn).

Certainly we have here references to a time of horror and suffering. Matthew 24 and 25 comprise a long discourse by Jesus.
The occasion for this teaching is the first days of Holy Week, when Christ and His disciples were in Jerusalem on that last visit which ended in His death and resurrection.
The Lord and His entourage have been in the Temple.
As they leave, one of the company remarks on the structure�s splendor and grandeur (24:1-2). Jesus replies by prophesying its coming destruction, which took place some 40 years later (70 AD)

. The group proceeds to the Mount of Olives, across the Kedron Valley from the city. They halt at a place which even today offers an admirable panorama of the Old City and the Temple site.
The disciples, perhaps alarmed by Christ�s words, ask when "these things," meaning the Temple�s destruction, will happen and what will be the signs of Christ�s return.

link........

www.fatheralexander.org...

[T.C i didn't mean to offend you ........

""the rapture is important '' in the last days because many people will await to be ''''raptured'' caught up in the clouds.....and when it does not happen......???
Scripture that holds the truth, should be left for the true seekers of God to be explained........
I myself cannot do such a thing........i and i beleive many look for spiritual people to '''lead us to good works'''and follow in the footsteps of the Apostles and their teachings........''i beleive in one God etc.......the creed,as it was written in the year 325A.D..........NO FORM OF CHANGE TO IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE ...........the orthodox church still use the same one with no alterations to it whats soever......

[Edited on 17-4-2003 by helen670]

[Edited on 17-4-2003 by helen670]