Are you in the Loop? Top secrets....

reply to post by zorgon


Exactly.

I think that's the thing people here need to learn.

Of those 1.2 million who have top secret clearances, how many are for things to help protect the citizens from attack via new defense methods or stopping terrorist plots? How many are for pharmaceutical tests in the search for a cure for cancer or AIDS? How about experimental construction methods for us in earthquake and hurricane hotspots?

Not all of it is black. Hell, some top secret stuff is the itinery of an ambassador or government official when talks are being held with other nations on economic or national interest. Doesn't mean aliens or whatever.

Originally posted by zorgon
I have one contact who is 45th wing space command... his job was to assign secrecy level to documents before sending them to the Pentagon... I just wish just once he would let one drop

Ask him to write a short story or "fictional" piece, see if that helps

2nd

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
It's far better to be outside of the loop, and to remain ambiguous, illusive and inaccurately defined, and profiled as someone else, and then to be able to "unofficially" enter and navigate inside the loop and escape undetected.

The down side is you can't use your source as proof

So while you end up 'in the know', you can't convince anyone else

You NEVER try to convince anyone on the outside of anything, so that is the only "downside"

The upsides are worthwhile.. You'd be surprised how much trouble one can get out of, or into, and out of with certain credible information.

Maintaining ambiguity, and profiled status is where the difficulties are.... You can't be known to know anything. You can't be credible, or a "source" for anyone.

You never are in any recordable way "in the know" on anything... You don't want to be, nor need to be... How you get in and out is the key.

"Need To Know" is a key element to accessing classified information. POTUS doesn't even have access to all there is to know in the USA. Often the juciest tidbits are not classified but are considered "sensitive."

A good part of classified material is raw uncrunched data and if you are unlucky enough to need a security clearance it is a burden to deal with the material and a strict procedure to follow when handling it that could get you a security violation, possibly fired, for not following procedure to the letter. It is typically a security violation to even let someone know you hold a security clearance, even when the nature of your work makes that rather obvious.

Being privy to sensitive information and discussion that goes on behind closed doors is perhaps the safest and most interesting position to be in. You would still need to be very discreet though.

Originally posted by intrepid
1.2 million with Top Secret access? IDK about that. With that many people with access one would think that every conspiracy would have been outed by now. Either the number is wrong or the juicy stuff is Above Top Secret.

Or maybe all the secrets are already out, and people just call the whistle blowers crazy?

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
"Need To Know" is a key element to accessing classified information. POTUS doesn't even have access to all there is to know in the USA. Often the juciest tidbits are not classified but are considered "sensitive."

A good part of classified material is raw uncrunched data and if you are unlucky enough to need a security clearance it is a burden to deal with the material and a strict procedure to follow when handling it that could get you a security violation, possibly fired, for not following procedure to the letter. It is typically a security violation to even let someone know you hold a security clearance, even when the nature of your work makes that rather obvious.

Being privy to sensitive information and discussion that goes on behind closed doors is perhaps the safest and most interesting position to be in. You would still need to be very discreet though.

Raw data is always very useful because if you can see/know how the raw data is packaged-presented, it can give you a peek into source's and methods, both technology/systems/humint, etc. Insight into sources&methods is often much more valuable then what the data reveals. It reveals more, much more then any one or group of "secrets" Having access to just the unwashed data can tell one a lot about how it was acquired as well as who got it, depending on specificity. And the more data you have, the more your analysis of what "they" got is more useful, and can often in some cases point to the type of information the other side values. And protecting how raw data is packaged is critical in counter-intel. as well. Sometimes "re-arranging" this is SOP, just in case it IS acquired by an unauthorized actor. Are they "trawling" for general intel, or acquiring targeting data? Obviously one is likely to be more time-critical then the other, and having that is better then platinum...

But frankly a great deal of the most critical, notably time critical information is never written down, but handled under NOP or nothing on paper protocol's. This is often the case with the most sensitive info, and is often relayed in person if possible. No paper, or electronic communication. Two people sitting next to each other on a park bench, subway, or walking may be making reference, indirectly of course to something other then the weather. As for "what" is the more compartmented, how and who are prime, and a lot of "stuff", like codes are designed to have an automatic decay as to usefulness. Sometimes this is referred to as the "humidity", (hypothetical) which determines how fast something will "evaporate". By design or "just because" the luxury of time is not available. And usually anything "NOP" is as compartmented as it gets...

reply to post by arbiture


It wasn't meant to downplay the value or importance of raw data, as stated, this is what is the most well-guarded and protected. For those who may feel "out of the loop" and kept in the dark because of not having a security clearance I suggest that unclassified and "sensitive" information heard spoken in a high-level conference might be more the type they would desire than raw trajectory information from a tracking radar. That's just my guess, unless they are a spy or are dabbling in rocket technology.

Certainly very, very few persons are cleared for the most juicy "secrets" such as those of MJ-12. Even those who may work at Area 51 or such places find their own access very compartmentalized. Even Bob Lazar who claims to have worked hands-on reverse engineering exotic spacecraft states he was limited to the two lower power decks of said craft and did not have access to the upper level, if one accepts his story. Being that close to such a machine I would want to take a gander at the whole enchilada. In that instance it would be interesting to view some raw trajectory data of such a craft in flight. It would be quite interesting to have first-hand knowledge that such craft even existed, of course not everyone would believe what one might say about it. "No photo then it didn't happen."

A great many people with security clearances probably would rather not have to deal with the BS that goes with having them.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
You can't be known to know anything.

You can't be credible, or a "source" for anyone.

Which is why whistleblowers come across as crazy

Originally posted by Ghost375
Or maybe all the secrets are already out, and people just call the whistle blowers crazy?

What he said

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
Being privy to sensitive information and discussion that goes on behind closed doors is perhaps the safest and most interesting position to be in. You would still need to be very discreet though.

There is also another factor. If and when a true insider comes out, say on a forum like ATS, and tells us what he knows.. a few will believe, a few will take the time to follow up the lead but most posters will read the OP and state an opinion on why this guy is a hoax or lying or selling a book or is crazy and a nut case...

From another thread..

Originally posted by NightGypsy
many people still don't pay attention, even though it's Hawking saying it.

Well that is the problem... just look at the replies in the thread

When he speaks about physics... he is the smartest man in the world
When he speaks about traversable wormholes people start to wonder
When he speaks of Aliens he has lost it, is now stupid or a government shill

When Edgar Mitchel went to the moon... he was a hero
When we find out he did RV experiments while on that trip people start to wonder
When he tells us aliens and UFOs are real he is senile, a nut case and just trying to get attention

Does no one see the stupidity of that kind of thinking?
Lemmings all of ya Its true there will be no disclosure

Yawl can't handle the truth, because when faced with it, the speaker is made into a fool or government tool because it goes against what the 'learned' posters here want to believe

I have seen it many times in the years I have been here... Insiders, big names in UFOlogy show up... get bashed and trolled then finally get angry enough to break a T&C and get banned or quit... So why would anyone with any real info step into the cannon fire?

Anyone with real TS and higher clearance making a statement couldn't prove it because having any hard documents in hand that were not declassified would be instant treason. It would be like calling the FBI and saying "Hey here I am...." And people will not just take their word for it...

So we are doomed to argue Yay or Nay for eternity

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
reply to post by arbiture

 

It wasn't meant to downplay the value or importance of raw data, as stated, this is what is the most well-guarded and protected. For those who may feel "out of the loop" and kept in the dark because of not having a security clearance I suggest that unclassified and "sensitive" information heard spoken in a high-level conference might be more the type they would desire than raw trajectory information from a tracking radar. That's just my guess, unless they are a spy or are dabbling in rocket technology.

Certainly very, very few persons are cleared for the most juicy "secrets" such as those of MJ-12. Even those who may work at Area 51 or such places find their own access very compartmentalized. Even Bob Lazar who claims to have worked hands-on reverse engineering exotic spacecraft states he was limited to the two lower power decks of said craft and did not have access to the upper level, if one accepts his story. Being that close to such a machine I would want to take a gander at the whole enchilada. In that instance it would be interesting to view some raw trajectory data of such a craft in flight. It would be quite interesting to have first-hand knowledge that such craft even existed, of course not everyone would believe what one might say about it. "No photo then it didn't happen."

A great many people with security clearances probably would rather not have to deal with the BS that goes with having them.

edit on 11-12-2011 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)

No argument at all Sir. Those who do discuss what is higher level, or for some of us with proprietary information, often there are gradient controls and special ways to compartment discussion. I certainly did not think you "downgraded" raw data, didn't mean to give that impression if I did. Even with in certain facilities with proprietary stuff, to create a "extreme high level" compartment for the whole bloody building creates problems as to TPTB don't like to think they can't play the voyeur whenever they wish. But general compartmenting of a building is now just common sense.

So for certain types of data, and in particular if a person is known say by a competitor, though there are a collage of ways to "smother" things like narrow-band targeted and enhanced listening from a distance, frankly it just creeps the people I DON'T want to worry about what I'm saying to just isolate in the most required in the most hardened compartment what needs to be discussed, and as secure as possible. Even then there are ways to talk about interesting stuff and not actually talk directly about it; in other words create a "legend" that has a mythological, or story telling motif. It's been pretty effective. Also I will give you a hint of something I discovered quite a while ago, and it's not a problem to mention. White noise is penetrable, and even useful, ie; its not "noise" at all. There are ways to design very complex compartments that take advantage of what was once "trash". Just as gasoline was once considered a useless by-product (not) and a dangerous one (well true, but very useful. Also the value of disinformation in some of the areas you mention is priceless. Alway's keep 'em guessing...

reply to post by arbiture


Early-on in my career while I was working in Video/MoPic Production and would occasionally draw the short straw and have to run the slide show in the Admiral's conference room. Those occasions and other assignments I would have in the field were some of the most interesting. Typically it was when I caught data displays on camera that I would have to label and handle that material as "classified".

Some of the better times was on slow days when I might grab a camera and take a 20-minute drive down the coast to Malibu to shoot some "stock footage." I really had to think long and hard about retiring when I did. Autumn of '06 turned out to be a good time.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
reply to post by arbiture

 

Early-on in my career while I was working in Video/MoPic Production and would occasionally draw the short straw and have to run the slide show in the Admiral's conference room. Those occasions and other assignments I would have in the field were some of the most interesting. Typically it was when I caught data displays on camera that I would have to label and handle that material as "classified".

Some of the better times was on slow days when I might grab a camera and take a 20-minute drive down the coast to Malibu to shoot some "stock footage." I really had to think long and hard about retiring when I did. Autumn of '06 turned out to be a good time.

Sounds like you had fun in your job, what more can one ask for. It reminds me of my early days, just after college. Back in the early 1980's I had the honor (honor hell for me it was a religious experience) of meeting Ben Rich at the Skunk Work's. I presented an idea that had to do with a biological film that would react to microwave radar frequencies and "smoke off" the MW frequency by converting it into the deep infra-red. Now understand at the time I had never even heard the word "stealth". I was a biochemist and physician and had developed certain materials for a biotech company I worked for at the time. Being an avid aviation nut and among other things on the research and advisory panel for Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine (not as sexy as it sounds) I thought this was a great chance to help my company, and visit Lockheed. And the company I worked for paid for the trip. O La La.

I like the fact you seemed to appreciate "the moment". To this day I still have a couple of old fashioned film cameras (no electronics) in my car or one small one on my person wherever I go. I have never seen a UFO. I have seen some very cool aircraft, or perhaps I should say aerospace craft in my day. But UFO? Sorry, no. But I keep looking. As far as retiring, it can be a bitch for many. Have you ever thought about being a consultant? When I sold my last company I knew I had to do something or become a hazard to navigation. I only sold because my heath was on a downward spiral. And yet I retained access to my labs, which are as far as I know are still some of the most advanced in the private sector (gives this guy a chance to play), as well as retained special access to my own staff, most of which I hired, and who's skill's run the gamete.

Now I work free lance, have very good connections and most of all; work and feeling like your doing something constructive is the best antidepressant in the world, no matter what your personal problems. Anyway you might want to consider free lance work, as a consultant. With the right connections the monies very good. For me the alternative is to sit around my house and talk to my cat. Thats fine for a while, after then however it just is weird. But it seems like you have a lot to offer, hate to waste it.

reply to post by arbiture


Everything is changing. Film cameras now digital and our analog video gone digital as well. A side-step of career paths made my camera work incidental to my job instead of the main thrust of it. All the better for that. Our command was previously known for many years as Pacific Missile Test Center but now has a Homeland Security type of name. We had some of the top tech come through but not any of those levitating triangles, which I have never seen either but suspect do exist. Nowadays I could hardly care less. Seeing a bubble growing to such proportions I suspected would pop, when offered an early-out and bonus I took it and later heard the bursting sound in the distance.

I was very dedicated to our mission and now have that same dedication to retirement. I changed latitude to the tropics and spend my days wasted away in Margaritaville. Actually, I have some home construction projects that occupy my interest and find watering the garden to be quite fulfilling. I might make a YouTube video someday so my friends north of the border can see me serenading the señoritas.

I'm now happily about as far out of the loop as I can possibly get. My memories of those days will sustain me well. I don't fly anymore and I hardly even drive my car if there are any reasonable alternatives. I had an enjoyable career and am having a great life and offer my best wishes to everyone in hopes theirs will be as well. In truth there were plenty of rough times, hard work, and my early decades seemed to offer little promise that better days would be ahead. I always kept a vision of what I wanted, stayed open to changes as new opportunities would arise, and always tried to do something extra, a little bit more than what was required - as some wise man advised me to do when I was a wiseacre kid just starting out. His suggestion resonated well and changed my whole outlook, and I believe that those extra efforts paid off well. I just wanted to add that for those feel things seem hopeless at times, it worked well for me.

Thanks for your input. It seems you've had your share of interesting moments where the pulse was beating. Happy days.

QFT

I had a TS/SCI (Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmentalized Information) for almost 20 years while active duty U.S. Navy and seriously outside of a few contingency operation briefings over in the 5th Fleet AOR (Iraq/Afghanistan), most of my needing an TS/SCI clearance involved handling a bunch of boring crypto codes that I could care less about (other than my losing them and it being both my ass and my career) that upon looking at them was like looking at nothing more than random numbers/letters/punch holes/etc that were used to load secure electronic equipment (digital data/voice communications that I knew NOTHING about the inner workings of as I was only an "operator").

If 1.2 million U.S. citizens have TS or higher clearances, I will say that probably 1.199999 have them mainly for boring routine crap that is but only the smaller piece of a larger puzzle (compartmentalized) that they could probably give a rats ass about, other than making damn sure that they remain accountable/responsible for the material the entire time it is in their possession



Totally agree with you!

And don't forget that just because you have the clearance, you also have to be cleared for
"THE NEED TO KNOW!" But that is all part of the compartmentalization.

reply to post by JohnySeagull


Not in the loop (as far as I know) and this shows many are part of somethig larger then general populace. WOnder are any media or entertainers part of this..

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


Thats good to hear. Take care. Bob (Arbiture)