Israeli former general: We'll have to bulldoze Gaza

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
Strawman? You denied that Palestinian children are going hungry and asked me to show you an example, so I provided a pic. How is that Strawman?

Not to make light of that child if he is genuinely malnurished, but i was much skinnier than he when i was his age. And food was never an issue for me. You sure that is your poster child for famine?

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
It's pathetic how you sink so low that you continue to deny that children are going hungry even after we have provided proof. It's even more sad that you use mainstream propaganda to support your argument.

One thin, but hardly malnurished child lifting his shirt up does NOT constitute proof. In fact, it is quite well known that Hamas, and other Arab interest groups misrepresent that situation on Gaza to stir up world opinion against the Jews. Its an old but effective trick. In fact, all we have to do is look about the Arab world and the way they treat the Palestinians. They are little more than pawns.

Here is a little article about the treatment Palestinians recieve from their arab brothers and sisters. This first quote shows how Jordan is revoking the citizenship of its Palestinian citizens in order to perpetuate the misery and continue the oppression.

Quote from Wikipedia 'Palestinian Refugee' entry
Palestinians who moved from the West Bank (whether refugees or not) to Jordan, are issued yellow ID cards to distinguish them from the Palestinians of the "official 10 refugee camps" in Jordan. Since 1988, thousands of those yellow-ID card Palestinians had their Jordanian citizenship revoked in order to prevent the possibility that they might become permanent residents of the country. Jordan's Interior Minister Nayef al-Kadi said, "Our goal is to prevent Israel from emptying the Palestinian territories of their original inhabitants," the minister explained, confirming that the kingdom had begun revoking the citizenship of Palestinians. "We should be thanked for taking this measure," he said. "We are fulfilling our national duty because Israel wants to expel the Palestinians from their homeland."[33]

This next quote shows the third class treatment they receive in Lebanon. The way they are treated in this country, a country of their supposed Arab brothers is nothing short of sickening.

Quote from Wikipedia 'Palestinian Refugee' entry
Over 400,000 Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon, who are deprived of certain basic rights. Lebanon barred Palestinian refugees from 73 job categories including professions such as medicine, law and engineering. They are not allowed to own property, and even need a special permit to leave their refugee camps. Unlike other foreigners in Lebanon, they are denied access to the Lebanese health care system. The Lebanese government refused to grant them work permits or permission to own land. The number of restrictions has been mounting since 1990.[36] In June 2005, however, the government of Lebanon removed some work restrictions for a few Lebanese-born Palestinians, enabling them to apply for work permits and work in the private sector.[37] In a 2007 study, Amnesty International denounced the "appalling social and economic condition" of Palestinians in Lebanon.[38]

Lebanon gave citizenship to about 50,000 Christian Palestinian refugees during the 1950s and 1960s. In the mid-1990s, about 60,000 refugees who were Shiite Muslim majority were granted citizenship. This caused a protest from Maronite authorities, leading to citizenship being given to all the Palestinian Christian refugees who were not already citizens.[39] There are about 350,000 non-citizen Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

So, in Lebanon it would seem a Palestinian is the lowest of the low. All other citizens has basic rights, but a Palestinian is barred from many jobs, health care, and must petition the government for the most basic things others would take for granted.
And last, but certainly most telling, the Arab Leagues official stance:

Quote from Wikipedia 'Palestinian Refugee' entry
The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".[46]

Tashbih Sayyed, a fellow of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, criticized Arab nations of making the children and grandchildren of Palestinian refugees second class citizens in Lebanon, Syria, or the Gulf States, and said that the refugees "cling to the illusion that defeating the Jews will restore their dignity".[47]

So at the end of the day, the Arabs treat their own Palestinian brothers no better than Israel does. It seems quite obvious as well that the Palestinians living in the peaceful West Bank fair much better than they would in Lebanon, Syria, Eqypt and more.

Say what you want about Israel, but you are blind if you do not see both sides of this issue. Arab countries couldnt care less about the Palestinians.

The entire Wiki article:
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by gravitational

So now you depend on polls (and a Palestinian one) as a proof of hunger.

How about a UN report wise guy?

A report released by Jean Ziegler, the U.N. Human Rights Commission special rapporteur for the right to food, states that Palestinians living in the Israeli-occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank are on the verge of a humanitarian catastrophe. Nine percent of Palestinian children under age 5 suffer from brain defects caused by malnutrition because of the occupation. Despite these disturbing statistics, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees will be reducing its size and services in Gaza because of lack of funds. We must not sit idly by in silence as Israel succeeds in committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Write to your representative right now and demand a stop to this human tragedy.

Source

(Please keep in mind that this is before the savage blockade was implemented, so things are much worse now)

Report

Let me guess, this isn't a valid source either? This supports the "poll" that you discredited earlier. You will deny this report to be true even though you know its true, that is how deceitful you have proven yourself to be.

I just chuckled right now in anticipation of the ridiculous response that you're bound to reply with.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


How about responding to my article showing how the arabs discriminate against the Palestinians in much the same manner as the jews? Except of course they claim to have their best interests at heart.

A report released by Jean Ziegler, the U.N. Human Rights Commission special rapporteur for the right to food, states that Palestinians living in the Israeli-occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank are on the verge of a humanitarian catastrophe. Nine percent of Palestinian children under age 5 suffer from brain defects caused by malnutrition because of the occupation.

Ah - the notorious Jean (Hans) Ziegler - the man who was so extreme he was thrown out of the Communist party - the one who helped create the "Moammar Qaddafi Human Rights Prize" in 1989. and now works for the famously Orwellian, Arab dominated, 'Human rights council' www.youtube.com...

There is an epidemic of 'brain defects' among muslims because they are all marrying their first cousins!

barenakedislam.wordpress.com...

Dr. Jehad Abudaia, a Canadian-Palestinian pediatrician and urologist practicing in Gaza, says “It is astonishing that we have [so] many cases with this rare birth defect.. He attributes the high frequency of this birth defect in Gaza families to “consanguinity,” or in-breeding. “If you want to go to the root of the problem, this problem runs in families in the genes.” Abudaia says. “They want to get married to cousins… they don’t go to another family. This is a problem.”

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Hilarious....

Highest obesity rates in the world:

www.economist.com...

And nothing like some nice colorful pictures of starving Gazzans:

barenakedislam.wordpress.com...

And as other point out, I can't recall when you so passionately criticized Egypt for the alleged Gaza condition, or any other Arab state that has a substantial number of Palestinian refugees.

your arguments and so called “evidence” are - In lack of a better term – pathetic.

reply to post by gravitational


High obesity rates are not synonymous with wealth. Firstly, many medical proffesionals agree that high obesity rates are more common amongst disadvantaged socio-economic classes as they eat more unhealthy and processed food, as that is all they can afford. This is extremely common in Western countries such as the US and Australia.

Secondly, high rates of obesity do not suggest that there is no malnutition or poverty. As you can see countries such as Lebanon, Albania, Panama, Mexico, Peru and Mongolia are all within the top 30 countries you just listed. These countries all have high levels of poverty and malnutrition as well as other negative social issues (i.e. alcholism in Mongolia is a huge problem). So some of the poorest countries on the list are also listed as having the highest rates of obesity.

Thridly, many of the diets of people in these countries are high in carbs and calories and do not use as much fresh fruit and vegetables as they are not availabe and fresh fruit and vegetables are notoriously more expensive than say processes meat and fatty foods. For example, from personal expirience I know Albania has a diet high in carbs and fat and typically many Albanians do not have access to fresh fruit and vegetable.

In case you needed more evidence of Palestinian malnutrion here it is:
www.haaretz.com...
www.independent.co.uk...
www.ifamericansknew.org...
www.wsws.org...
abcnews.go.com...
www.pcbs.gov.ps...
reliefweb.int...
articles.sfgate.com...

If you need evidence of high levels of poverty (70% infact) and unemployment (40%) than here is the CIA world factbook:
Gaza: www.cia.gov...
West Bank: www.cia.gov...
You will notice that the West Bank is only slightly better off. Both Gaza and the West Bank have similiar statistics.

It is nice to see you trying to distort reality once again. I thought I buried the "Gaza is rich there is no poverty and nothing is Israels fault" myth months ago.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


I did not deny in any shape or form there is poverty and high unemployment rates.
That is not the same as being starving, so don't distort my words. You have however absolutely zero proof the Gazzans are starving. The supply transferred to Gaza is more than enough to keep them out of hunger.

Don't dismiss what I have pointed out in previous posts just because it's convenient, IE: The continuous Palestinian attacks on joint industrial facilities, the Hamas seizing food supplies, the Egyptians who share border with Gaza strip, who seem to easily get of the hook in this debate, the extraordinary wealth of the Palestinian leaders etc'.

On a final note, having been there both in Gaza and the west bank, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, the picture portrayed as if the Palestinians are on the verge of collapse, is false. Gaza city or Ramallah are flourishing for example. It's a Palestinian political decision to stop corruption, stealing aid and fundings, stop terror attacks, and resettle those in the refugee camps in the lands that the Israelis left after 2005.
It's that simple. But those at power know they will lose the only card they can play against Israel.
By the looks of it, their propaganda prevails so far.

reply to post by gravitational

You have however absolutely zero proof the Gazzans are starving.

Firstly, I used the lexicology of malnutrition not starvation. But the accepted definition for starving is "to suffer from or die of starvation" and the definition of starvation is "a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential nutrients over a prolonged period." So if one were to objectivelly look at the multitude of statistics and evidence of malnutrition in Palestinian children and women, once could safely say that there are people starving in Palestine, because starving dosen;t necassarily translate into dying of lack of food. Malnutrition qualifies as starving. In the West we would say anerexic people are starving.

Don't dismiss what I have pointed out in previous posts just because it's convenient, IE: The continuous Palestinian attacks on joint industrial facilities, the Hamas seizing food supplies, the Egyptians who share border with Gaza strip, who seem to easily get of the hook in this debate, the extraordinary wealth of the Palestinian leaders etc'.

I never dismissed it. But to deny that Israel shares the blame is like denying that the sky is blue. There is a long list of items prohibited to enter Gaza by Israel and they include items such as livestock. Goats, sheep and cows included. In a thrid world economy (i.e. the Gazan economy) livestock is vital to self-sustainabilty and survival. The Gazans do not have the ability to import large quantities of alreadly culled animals (i.e. meat). Israel also holds an embargo on Gaza (as you know). I know you tend to downplay the effects of the embargo, but it is clear it has adverse affects on the Gazan economy and restricts the import and the pace of imports of all goods (including weaponary) otherwise it would not be in place.

the extraordinary wealth of the Palestinian leaders

There is always a small and wealthy elite who may have achieved extrodinary wealth from being born in an advantaged position and through corruption. This is the case in many poor countries such as Somalia, Sudan and Nigeria. It is also the case in developed countries such as the US and even Israel. It is sad but reality and it is good to highlight and fight against, but answer this. Does it excuse Israel if infact Israel has caused some degree of poverty? I would say no.

It's a Palestinian political decision to stop corruption, stealing aid and fundings

This decision isn't exactly in the hands of the people. Corruption isn't exactly democratically controlled even in democratic countries. For examle Israel ranks 38th best in corruption rankings in the world with a corruption perception index of 5.8 (with 10 being the best 0.1) being the worst. By comparison New Zealand is first with a CPI of 9.5. Israel is in-fact behind countries such as Barbados and Botswana. Here is the CPI, you can also find it on the homepage of Transparency International. en.wikipedia.org...
cpi.transparency.org...

The PA, the Palestinian people and Hamas must be held accountable for their discresions. But what I see from you is a denial of Israeli accountablity for their wrong doings and in fact more often then not I see denail that Israel does any wrong at all. It is sad really.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Call it Starvation, call it malnutrition, call it whatever the hell you want. You still have zero proof that is the case, and it will remain that way, since this is the reality we're talking about, not buying cheap propaganda.

Funny thing you felt obliged to argue like all good bureaucrats do, on the highest obesity rates.
Maybe Israel should also lift the embargo off of Qatar, Lebanon and Saudi, Kuwait, Panama.
Oh, wait...

www.economist.com...

They do some yap like that and I will assure each and every person here that this alone will stop the peaceplan cold.

reply to post by gravitational

You still have zero proof that is the case

Nevermind the fact that I posted a multitude of links that report the malnutrition rate in Gaza.

Funny thing you felt obliged to argue like all good bureaucrats do, on the highest obesity rates. Maybe Israel should also lift the embargo off of Qatar, Lebanon and Saudi, Kuwait, Panama. Oh, wait...

Honestly, I don't understand the point you are trying to get across here. It's probably somthing stupid and irrelevant.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Of course you don't understand.
Look at the freaking list.

www.economist.com...

reply to post by gravitational


Yes I know they are on the list. I don't understand the reference to Israel stopping an embargo on them.

Headline from 1938 Nazi Germany : Former Nazi General : we'll have to bulldoze Jewish neighborhoods.

Extremists, they are everywhere.

Isn't Hamas simply defending its people and land? does Hamas do unjustified actions?

Originally posted by masterp
Isn't Hamas simply defending its people and land? does Hamas do unjustified actions?

Yes, they do.

Living in peace is impossible for them so they perpetuate a state of war and use their own people as pawns.