It's time to Relocate Palestinians to Jordan: Two-thirds of Jordanians are already Palestinian

reply to post by ghash


I brought facts,demographics and historical realities. While all you have given us is your long, pointless and ignorant opinion because its hard for you as a jordanian to accept the reality of things.

Go ahead think whatever you want. But any person with half a brain who would look at the numbers of palestinians in jordan (call them palestinian jordanian if you wish), who is the past tried to overthrow the king and take over jordan would tell you that you are a delusional moron to think that it wont happen in the future.

Again, i cant argue with someone who is oblivious to reality.

I suggest you find a country to go to because your children will not grow up in the jordan you know. And for the record i have a few jordanian friends one palestinian and the other is not. The palestinian says he nor his friends ever saw themselves jordanian and they were never treated as ones, and they both agree the once the king is gone, which will be in the next 50 years jordan will be a palestinian state even if its just by the sheer numbers.

Sorry but thats reality...

reply to post by CountDrac


I hope you realise how rediculous your whole contention is. You bring so called "facts and realities" but it dosen't change that the original post is one sad joke to put it in the nicest way possible. My first post was aimed at highlighting the dangers to Israel and the illogicality of your idea. Your idea being that Jordan should become a Palestinian state while the West Bank and Gaza should become part of Israel. In case you missed my first point here it is again.

Just as I said relocating Israel would be a rediculous preposition, so would this. There are many reasons for such.

Firstly, historically Israel has shared a special relationship with Jordan. In the region, amongst the Muslim states of the Middle East, the Hashemite regime has been the most co-operative and freindly towards Israel. It often colluded with Israel, which it sometimes received heavy criticism from the Arab league for. Jordan is in many respects Israels closest freind. However, this does not detract from the fact that the constitutional monarchy in Jordan is a terrible system of governance, and I would gladly support a peoples demonstration (or uprising) aimed to install more open or democratic governance. However, my support would be conditional on the fact that the opposition would be free from external influence.

It would be highly unlikely that Israel would support the overthrow of the Hashemite regime, as it would leave a destabilising power vaccums in Jordan open to fulfilment by radical (secular or Islamist) sects which could result in a hostile or un-coperative regime being installed to Israels detrement.

It is in the interest of Israel to ensure that they do not undermine the Hashemite regime (as much as I disagree with their dictatorial way) as it is in Israels interest to ensure stability amongst its borders. The Hashemite regime also established the second ever peace treaty with Israel in 1993. This was a historic moment. Unlike the cold-peace Israel established with Egypt, this peace was far more receptive even though amongst the Palestinians in Jordan it was unwelcome as it did not gaurantee them any sort of self-governance or sovereignty.

If the Palestinians were to take democratic control (or any control) over Jordan, this would still mean there is a large number of Palestinians in the West Bank. Jordan is not in any position to accept over 1,000,000 Palestinains. It cannot handle such an influx, economically, politically or socially. The states would be dramatically weakened resulting in less of a monopoly on force within the state meaning that violent and radical organisations could thrive in Jordan. There radical organisations would not only be deeply divided amongst themselves (i.e. Hamas vs Fatah) but they would also have varrying opinions on how to deal with Israel (i.e. Terrorism vs Diplomacy).

Not only would all this happen. But in esence no problem would be solved. The Palestinians would still lay claim to the West Bank and Gaza and the conflict would continue. I would love to see more democratic governance in Jordan, but to me this process must take an extended period of time and happen in a more orderly fashion (i.e. more like Egypt rather than Libya). What Israel needs to do on their part is be far more committed (i.e. more like Rabin rather than Netanyahu) to peace and diplomacy on their part. The Palestinains should do the same.

Now I would like to further highlight the illogicality of your "idea". If Jordan were to hypothetically become a Palestinian state (which it won't any time soon seing Palestinians likely comprise only 1/3 of the population) then the fact willl remain that there are still over 4,000,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. These 4,000,000 cannot be economically absorbed into the existing Jordanian economy or political structure. Such and undertaking would be almost impossible. So all your idea would be doing is avoiding the actual cause of instability in Israel and side-stepping any meaningful oppurtunity to acheive a just and lasting peace.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


I didn’t answer your pervious post because it was stupid. I know some people here are less intelligent so let me clarify this again. “ It's time to Relocate Palestinians to Jordan”
What part of relocate don’t you understand? That includes Gaza and the west bank.

As for Israel’s relationship with Jordan. They would be more then happy to get rid of the king if it meant getting rid of all the Palestinians and solving the problem once and for all. No matter how problematic or radical the political situation with Jordan would become, it would still be preferable and easier for them to deal with an outside threat on a bordering country rather then within the Israeli state like their current situation. Don’t be naive…

And No, its not impossible to absorbed 4mill new palestinians into Jordan, especially with international aid. Your claim is based on nothing…

OP title is like saying time to relocate all Eurpeans to USA since USA is around 90% european descent.



why relocate Palestineans? oh yea because Zionists USA installed Israel in its place 60 yrs ago, figures.

Palestineans are treated worse than slaves by the intruder, Israel (thanks to USA)

reply to post by CountDrac


Looks like burqa land is coming to your doorstep! Better build that Egypt/Israeli Wall fast! Enjoy those gas pipelines permanently cut from Egypt, they're never coming back.

reply to post by JYone


JYone,

Oh, I'm sorry that you thought my comment was directed towards your post.

When I mentioned the "plan" I was referring to the OP's plan, not the article of substance that you had posted.

Jordan First. While allowing for the *deserved* Palestinian state...

reply to post by CountDrac

and they both agree the once the king is gone, which will be in the next 50 years jordan will be a palestinian state even if its just by the sheer numbers.

Sorry but thats reality...

So, CountDrac, could you please provide me the source/link for the above^^^information; other than a couple of Jordanian friends? This will enable me to evaluate the original post and thread further, rather than rushing to judgment.

Thanks in advance, sir...

reply to post by CountDrac
now your'e just contradicting yourself. first, you claim that relocating the Palestinians to Jordan is the solution to the conflict, but now your'e saying it's just a way to expedite the conflict to the other side of the border so Israel can gain more legitimacy by playing the victim. And the evidence you claim to support your facts is nothing more than opinions and misinterpreted numbers:

"Again, israel is a recognized state by the UN, while the palestinians are not. My logic is based on reality and the current status quo, yours is based on your opinion...
Unless you can have the UN revert the decision they made 60 years ago i suggest you move on and live in the current reality"

I have to remind you that the UN is currently studying the Palestinian plea for recognition of a state.

"Simple Logic dude. Two thirds of jordan are now palestinians and sooner or later there will be no Jordan.
This is not about right or wrong, its about the reality of things

They will have an apartheid just like south african and the jordanians cant do anything about it. Sad but true"

Yet you fail to acknowledge that most of these "Palestinians" have Jordanian nationalities and have full rights as Jordanian citizens and have been residing there for a long time and consider themselves Jordanian

"Come on wake up.
2 out of 3 jordanians are palestinian refugees or palestinian. It wasnt long ago before the PLO was allowed into israel that Arafat tried to overthrow the jordanian king. When he couldnt he set his eyes to israel..."
where do you get your information from??!!

" What part of factual history dont you understand? To refresh your memory:

In the late 1960s, tensions between Palestinians and the Jordanian government increased greatly; heavily armed Arab resistance elements had created a virtual "state within a state" in Jordan, eventually controlling several strategic positions in that country. After their victory in the Battle of Karameh, Fatah and other Palestinian militias began taking control of civil life in Jordan. They set up roadblocks, publicly humiliated Jordanian police forces, molested women and levied illegal taxes—all of which Arafat either condoned or ignored. King Hussein considered this a growing threat to his kingdom's sovereignty and security, and attempted to disarm the militias. However, in order to avoid a military confrontation with opposition forces, Hussein dismissed several of his anti-PLO cabinet officials, including some of his own family members, and invited Arafat to become Prime Minister of Jordan. Arafat refused, citing his belief in the need for a Palestinian state with Palestinian leadership.
en.wikipedia.org...

it happened once and it will happen again. Dont fool yourself, Jordan is going down anyway. "

since you posted this you should read about the PLO and what they considered a Palestinian state. And i'll give you a hint, it's not Jordan

"PLO wanted jordan to fight israel? are you kidding me? that must be the stupidest excuse i ever heard.

Get this into your head, the PLO wanted Jordan because they are the majority. Thinking otherwise makes you both ignorant and delusional.

Also the fact that Jordan is ruled by monarchy just shows how backwards you are. Any ruling monarchy should be demolished in the 21 century. Former king Hussein destroyed his opposition by killing his opponents.

You are not in touch with reality. Jordan being Palestinian in the future is a fact. So i suggest you start Dealing with it…

Your posts are ignorant and a waist of my time.
Dracula out "

again I have to say, check your information! You're the one who posted the wiki link about Black September so finish reading it. The PLO was backed by Egyptian president Jamal Abd Elnasser who didn't like king Hussein at the time. And the post also shows that king Hussein did't kill his opponents but offerred them seats in the government. And btw just so you know that in the entire history of Jordan no one was killed for a political opinion, people who have tried to launch coups on the king ended up as his ministers and prime ministers e.g. Suleiman Nabulsi leader of the communist party in Jordan. And its not up to you to decide if a leader is good or bad especially if its not your country. We like the Hashemites, we chose them so you deal with it.

to be contd

reply to post by CountDrac


Jordan is only about twice the size of Israel, its population is already over 6,000,000 people and it has access to scarce amounts of water. It would be the acquivalent of Arizona having an unstable and insecure government and absorbing another 4,000,000 Mexicans. If you had a basic understanding of economics (seeing population growth in the form of the birth rate and imigration is a key study of economics) you would understand that integrating only a small number (i.e. 20,000) is difficult as it is, but absorbing a whole 4,000,000 could likely cause the collapse of the Jordanian economy and political structure ensuring it is a failed state. It would then only breed terrorism and poverty and cause even more damage to Israel seeing it would have access to greater military resources (i.e. the remanents of the Jordanian military). Your whole contention is stupid and it is said that you don't realise so.

reply to post by CountDrac
you also said:

"All your points are based on your ignorant opinion and not factual history.

You didnt answer my main point which is if two thirds of your country are palestinians, which have tried in the past to overthrow the king, what is the likelihood it will happen again?

Let me give you a clue since it seems you are oblivious to reality. 100%

No matter how many post you write, deep down you know that eventually you will be called a palestinian. Jordan has no future as a jordanian state...

Have a nice day""
The likelihood of it happening started decreasing when it ended because, Jordan became a prosperous country with the highest education and literacy levels in the region, a stable country in a very unstable region, been through the worst the region has been through without even flinching so to sum it up, people have too much to lose and they are quite happy like this.

"I brought facts,demographics and historical realities. While all you have given us is your long, pointless and ignorant opinion because its hard for you as a jordanian to accept the reality of things.

Go ahead think whatever you want. But any person with half a brain who would look at the numbers of palestinians in jordan (call them palestinian jordanian if you wish), who is the past tried to overthrow the king and take over jordan would tell you that you are a delusional moron to think that it wont happen in the future.

Again, i cant argue with someone who is oblivious to reality.

I suggest you find a country to go to because your children will not grow up in the jordan you know. And for the record i have a few jordanian friends one palestinian and the other is not. The palestinian says he nor his friends ever saw themselves jordanian and they were never treated as ones, and they both agree the once the king is gone, which will be in the next 50 years jordan will be a palestinian state even if its just by the sheer numbers.

Sorry but thats reality..."

I don't know which is worst your pesonal attacks, or the fact the you either did't understand your own "facts,demographics and historical realities" or intentionally distorted them.

"I didn’t answer your pervious post because it was stupid. I know some people here are less intelligent so let me clarify this again. “ It's time to Relocate Palestinians to Jordan”
What part of relocate don’t you understand? That includes Gaza and the west bank.

As for Israel’s relationship with Jordan. They would be more then happy to get rid of the king if it meant getting rid of all the Palestinians and solving the problem once and for all. No matter how problematic or radical the political situation with Jordan would become, it would still be preferable and easier for them to deal with an outside threat on a bordering country rather then within the Israeli state like their current situation. Don’t be naive…

And No, its not impossible to absorbed 4mill new palestinians into Jordan, especially with international aid. Your claim is based on nothing… "

As I said before, if this is your idea of logic then it is messed up because instead of recognizing Palestinian rights, we demonize them cast them away into Jordan so when they object Israel would have more legitimacy and play the victims role like usual and would have to respond to the "threat" by repeated breaching of air space, buffer zones, killings and air strikes on civillians, basically a bigger Gaza. Your whole presentation reeks of zionist propaganda that Israeli right wing nuts dream of instead of having the courage to compromise to achieve peace. And btw in 50 years in Israel there would be more Arabs than Israelis due to a higher birthing rate so who knows they might take over Israel.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Actually I’m sure I have more knowledge then you when it comes to economics. Israel did just fine when it absorbed 2mill Russians in a time span of three years. Again you argument is based on nothing but your ignorant opinion.

Originally posted by CountDrac
reply to post by SpeachM1litant

 

Actually I’m sure I have more knowledge then you when it comes to economics. Israel did just fine when it absorbed 2mill Russians in a time span of three years. Again you argument is based on nothing but your ignorant opinion.

Sweet so are you a student of economics? Because if you had any basic knowledge in economics you would understand the extreme undertaking absorbing 4,000,000 people into a country with scarce water resources and a weak state structure.

Comparing the Israeli Allyah (Russian emigration into Israel) to 4,000,000 Palestinians emigrating into Jordan is an entirely different circumstance. Your statistics are also false. From 1968 to 1986 there were only around 250,000 Russian emigrants entering Israel. In total Jewish imigration to Israel from 1919 to 2006 has been around 3,400,000. Israel never absorbed 2,000,000 imigrants in two years. It absorbed almost 1,000,000 in the span of 9 years, from 1990-1999 which was the highest imigration rate in Israels history. These statistics can be found on the Jewish Agency for Israel website: jewishagency.org...
To round up that paragraph, your facts are false. Israel did not absorb 2,000,000 imigrants in two years. The highest influx of imigrants it ever had was from 1990 to 1999, and it was still under 1,000,000 imigrants.

Israel itself struggled to accomodate the influx of refugees it did accept after the collapse of the USSR. Israel under the presidency of Yitzhak Shamir (when the Russian Jews were coming to Israel) acctually only entered the Madrid conference round of peace discussions because President Bush Snr witheld vital loans that Israel required to absorb those immigrants. Israel itself was a modern economy far more capable than Jordan and still required massive amounts of financial aid for that influx of refugees. Jordan is a weaker state than Israel, it isn't exactly a beacon of stability in the Middle East, it is a massive debtor and its economy is essentially struggling. It has access to few water resources, Israel in fact has far greater access to fresh water than Jordan. Jordan is not in the economical, political or financial position to accomodate 4,000,000 Palestinians. Unless you want a failed state that is crowded by poverty, death and breeds anti-Israeli terrorists, than your idea is stupid.

Face reality because this whole thread is pretty laughable and your persistence with a broken idea only makes it funnier.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Again you are only acknowledging the parts of my argument that are convenient for you especially the ones about Israel.

As I said in my pervious posts “ with financial aid and in a realistic time span it would not be a problem to relocate 4mill Palestinians to Jordan”. What part of financial aid or Time Span didn’t you understand???

When you have any historical or realistic facts supporting your arguments. Or you have good reasoning to why you think the Palestinians will not try to overthrow the king again, or why Jordan will not become Palestinian in the future based on the current numbers and natural birth rate. Then I would be more then happy to hear…

All you are giving me are long responses, which are based on your bios opinion and Very Ignorant reasoning that are frankly not worth my time.

Until then
Dracula out

reply to post by CountDrac

All you are giving me are long responses, which are based on your bios opinion and Very Ignorant reasoning that are frankly not worth my time.

Frankly your responses and your OP is based upon your biased opinion. Mine are based on realism and facts, somthing which I have provided in all my posts, but you haven't provided in any of yours. In fact you have provided falsehoods (i.e. saying Israel absorbed 2,000,000 imigrants in 3 years).

As I said in my pervious posts “ with financial aid and in a realistic time span it would not be a problem to relocate 4mill Palestinians to Jordan”. What part of financial aid or Time Span didn’t you understand???

First lets begin with financial aid. Who will this financial aid come from? Money and Capital does not appear out of thin air.
Secondly what is a realistic timespan? 20 or so years? Add to the fact that Jordan still hasn't integrated the many Palestinians refugees in Jordan.
Thirdly and most importantly, what makes you think that the Palestinians will want to relocate from their homeland in Gaza and the West Bank. A forced relocation would constitute a violation of international law, therefore your whole scheme wouldn't have UN approval. Seriously a 7 year old could spot the massive gaps of logicality in this idea.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


You sound like an angry little girl. Let me say this again ( I also outlined the historical facts for you so you dont miss them) if you have good reasoning to why you think the Palestinians will not try to overthrow the king again (Historical Fact), or why Jordan will not become Palestinian in the future based on the current numbers and natural birth rate (Fact), then I would be happy to hear them. Meanwhile all im hearing is Your ignorant opinions.

Where will they get Aid? same place they got it up to now, over 7.5 billion international aid up to 2010 (fact).
Unless you have some Factual Reasoning your a Big waist of my time...

You have been served
Dracula Out

reply to post by CountDrac

You have been served

Your not serving anybody.

My post isn't aimed at debating wether the Jordanian monarchy will be overthrown or not and if Jordan will become governed by a Palestinian ethnicity. What my post is aimed at is highlighting the logistics of relocating 4,000,000 Palestinians into Jordan. If Jordan is governed by Palestinians is a non-issue because it will not eliminate the fact that the government governing the territory of Jordan will have to absorb and absurd ammount of people (over 4,000,000). Wether it is the Jordanian monarchy that is in power or a Palestinian government wont change this fact. Palestinian's have in the pass have relative self-autonamy in parts of Jordan. The PLO for some time controlled eastern areas of Jordan unofficially and this still continues to occur today. However, saying Jordan will become a Palestinian state is stupid when Palestinians infact make up 1/3, not half or 2/3 but only 1/3 of the pipulation. Today around 2,000,000 of the people living in Jordan are Palestinian while around 4,000,000 are Jordanian or other. Even if we were to account for the influx of another 4,000,000 Palestinians, Jordan would still be a bi-ethnic state with 60% Palestinains and 40% Jordanians. So no it would not be a hemogenous state.

The issue of funding is rather complex and you obviously do not have the mental capability to make sense of it. To integrate 4,000,000 Palestinians will take far more than 7.5 billion. Secondly, during this era of economic uncertainty, securing funds which would certainly exceed over 20 billion would be difficult. The UN dosen't exactly have 20 billion lying around seeing it requires donations or fund given by member-states to function. Israel won't flip the bill but it would reap the benefits of such a proposal, the US can't flip the bill financially, Russia certainly won't as most of the developing world won't either. The Arab states won't. Seriously who will pay? You cannot even answer the most basic question.

The other question is what resources will they live on. Jordan has barely enough water for its own population, let alone 4,000,000 people. Is it so hard to understand that Jordan does not have the physical resources to sustain such a large populaiton? Are you seriously so daft as to ignore this?

Anyway, you haven't answered any of the questions (even the most basic) and you have completely side-stepped any of the contentious issues regarding your stupid proposal. I don't know wether this thread is scary or funny.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Yes you are very funny. I feel like im trying to explain to a ten year old how to build a worthwhile argument. Again show me any factual reality.

Funding issue? Again it’s your baseless opinion. The Saudi’s are the biggest palestinian Aid backers besides the US, and have more then enough money to give the Palestinians not including the other oil rich Arab states. Your statement on the who, how, when for financial aid is laughable and again baseless.

Water and resources? This must be your stupidest comment yet. Israel is taking care of the water situation for those 4mill Palestinians currently in the occupied territories just fine. They would help with water, resources, infrastructure and the economy if they reached an agreement to relocate those Palestinians.

With the help of international aid, and Israel who is currently sustaining those 4mill Palestinian with all of the above, the relocation process would be just fine.

If Israel would reach an agreement to relocate those Palestinian, they would be obligated to help in all those areas. Again in reality Israel is already doing it, which makes the entire premise of your argument WORTHLESS and pathetic.

Now that I gave you a lesson on basing your arguments of historical facts and the current realities, your are more then welcome to try and make an argument that’s worthwhile and not based on your childish opinions.

Until then, you have been served for the Second time...
Dracula OUT

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


ohh i am...