A Question for Tolkien Aficionados...

My wife and I were watching 'The Lord of the Rings' trilogy the other day and she asked a question that I didn't know the answer to. I know that there were five Wizards sent down to Middle Earth to help the mortals in their fight against Sauron, Gandalf the Gray being one of these five, Saruman the White being another.
I know the Wizards are a part of the Istari and that Saruman was their leader.
Now here's where the question comes in:
Gandalf the Gray became Gandalf the White after defeating the Balrog. In RPG terms I guess you could say he "leveled up". The question my wife had though was "How did Saruman become a White Wizard? Was he always a White Wizard (meaning: was he created as "white" by Valar), or did he level up by a accomplishing some great feat? Is this something mentioned in 'The Silmarillion'? Any information would help.

It wasn't defeating the Balrog that turned him white.

It was his death and subsequent reincarnation that turned him white. He was sent back by Eru because his task was not complete. I would assume Saruman died and was resurrected as well, but I'm not sure.

As far as the story of Saruman's death, I do not know. I have read the Silmarillian but not for almost 20 years. = I remember it was difficult reading (so much elf talk!)

I know. I was joking about the "leveling up", and the story goes that Valor sent Gandalf back with more power because his role wasn't finished, but being a Gray Wizard wasn't cutting it, so he (Valor) granted Gandalf more power. My question is though, how did Saruman become white? Is it mentioned anywhere, or is there no mention of it in any of the vast writings about Middle Earth?

I've read them all, many multiple times, and don't recall any account of why Saruman was a white wizard.

It's been a long time since I've read anything but the Fellowship trilogy though, so I could be forgetting something. Sorry!

No worries. I've read them myself and don't recall either, and that's A LOT of reading to do to get refreshed, so I figured one of the thousands of ATS readers might know. I don't think there is any mention, but I know Tolkien's son was finishing some of his father's incomplete writings (which I haven't read), and thought maybe it's mentioned in there. Oh well.

I believe the color of the wizard illustrates their position in the White Council. Saruman was Saruman the White because he was leader of the White Council. When Gandalf sacrificed himself for the very cause of the White Council - in parallel with Saruman aligning himself with Sauron - he was returned as Gandalf the White, leader of the White Council (taking Saruman's position).

I could be wrong. I've read much of the Simarillion, and haven't yet picked up a copy of Unfinished Tales - but this is how I've always perceived the transition.

reply to post by memoir


We know that, but why was Saruman white? He was created by Valor as "white", correct?

Sorry, I just realized I didn't actually answer your question... at all. If I recall Saruman was most like Istari, like minded, et cetera. I imagine this had something to do with Istari placing Saruman as head of the White Council...

Supposedly, in Unfinished Tales (which I have not yet read) there is an account of how Istari chose the five wizards - perhaps your answer lies there...

reply to post by memoir


Weren't the words "Istari" and "Wizard" interchangeable? I think all Wizards in this world are Istari, no?

I'm sorry, you're right. Everywhere I wrote 'Istari' read Valar

It's monday... and early yet....

i dont think the color has anything to do with "power" it has to do with school of magic... the only other mention of the istari besides there being 5 i believe.

Saruman was Curumo ("skillful one"), Gandalf was Olórin ("dreaming" or "dreamer"); and Radagast was Aiwendil ("friend of birds"). The Quenya names Morinehtar ("darkness-slayer") and Rómestámo ("east-helper") are given for Alatar and Pallando, though it is not clear which name goes with which wizard.

en.wikipedia.org...

radagast is brown and a wizard of nature unlike the other two. perhaps gandalfs grey magic wasnt capable of beating the whites so Valar gave him equal footing in schools of magic to be able to fight a fair fight with Saruman.

could be that Saruman was just a more powerful wizard and had learned some things thru Saurons help to achieve his position, level of power.

the "death" of Gandalf, in a manner of speaking opened his third eye. he was able to see into the school of magic that he couldnt before, becoming an equal threat to Saruman.


PS i have read All of J.R.R. Tolkiens works and all of Christopher Tolkien works as well.
i also played the RPG for many years and studied the lore behind the magic

reply to post by Garkiniss



If you want to find references to Saruman within the works then wikipedia can lead to the pages you need here

Saruman

Personally I feel the he was Saruman the White as the appointed leader of Istari a role that Gandalf assumes with Saruman's betrayal

Well, this question got me interested in finding an answer.. I had never thought to ask why Saruman was white - I just assumed he had died and been reincarnated.

So I started looking around on the interwebs and found this wiki:

lotr.wikia.com...

I'm sure if you're looking for this answer you're already aware of it - there is no answer here either, just what we've already discussed. I don't know if a definitive answer exists. I've been looking for something to read lately, maybe I'll take another stab at some of the Middle Earth lore.

reply to post by Garkiniss


If you are an admirer of Tolkien you maybe interested in this:-

www.birmingham.gov.uk... 2FWrapper%2FWrapper

Some good links on there.

It seems as though the concensus is that Saruman was created as "White" by Valor to lead the Istari, but with his betrayal of the Fellowship, who were trying to destroy the one ring, and his betrayal of a fellow wizard, Gandalf was sent back by Valor as a temporary replacement for Saruman, atleast until the ring was cast back into Mount Doom.
This is why Gandalf was able to break his staff, a kind of Istari forced retirement.


PS> I do like they put the Gandalf staff break by the Witch King back into the extended edition. My wife always wondered why the Witch King was considered so badass. After seeing the extended footage of him stripping Gandalf's power like that she was like "Oh $h!t !"

reply to post by Garkiniss


I also seem to remember that Saruman gave up his "white" status to become "Saruman of many colors". In effect resigning his position at the head of the Ishtari.

I believe that is why Gandalf the Grey came back as Gandalf the White. To replace Saurman in knowledge and position.

From what I remember of the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I remember that the positions were in place based on knowledge/wisdom. I know that Gandalf always held Saruman to be the "wisest of us all" until Saruman's betrayal...

Danno