The Proud Feeling For the US military

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


I could not and would not be a recruiter, joining the military is a life changing commitment and I could not be a lying salesman just to make a quota. There are down sides to serving in the military but In most cases its not the men and women serving next to you. There are bad apples..the military (just like most US colleges) is more like a pump than a filter so it has its fair share of idiots.

reply to post by swimmer15


too true, won't go into what 8 yrs of gulf wars did to my little brother, it's been a rough day [ it's not easy being invisible]

passed through the flames yourself, now?

hopefully your well on the Way.

reply to post by nenothtu


I am not thinking for anyone. It is not an opinion but a fact. Just because they think that they are fighting for the freedom of the american people does not mean that they really are. Its a hard thing to accept that your own government would use the people of this country to line their own pockets, but it has been shown time and time again.

Explain to me how i was incorrect in anything I said. Im not being a wise ass, i like to listen to other peoples opinion on the topic, but I wont accept any of the usual military excuses for war.

Reply to : DerepentLEstranger

--- 8 years, I can just imagine...No worries..I found it funny really, My last three years was shore duty, I had to choose between Recruiter, Instructor or Recruit Division Commander, When discussing which would be best for making E-7 (got out as E-6) My Command Master Chief told me flat out "you wont make it as a recruiter so scratch that one". I tend to be brutally honest, and recruiters tend to be a little no very misleading. As I said before I feel its I life changing step and you should be damn sure what your getting into. So I went instructor, figured I'd be more satisfied preparing the new members for the fleet.

--- got out in 08.I miss some of the men and women I served with but not the life at all.

--- kids and job keep me pretty busy but only time will tell..raising kids in this world is scary but right now..life is good, I have nothing to complain about.

reply to post by RightWingAvenger


There are no ethics in war...thats the ugly side of it all. Not one war has been fought with ethics in mind...that is for textbooks and fairy tales...does this mean it is right...of course not but it is how wars are fought. This is why we must regard decisions of going to war with much thought but alas this is not always done.

TPTB make these decisions and right or wrong we must follow there decisions...does not mean blindly...an unlawful order is just that an unlawful order.

the thing about soldiers is we do not enjoy war...how could anyone that spends a year or more away from family and friends in a situation they could die enjoy it. Can you imagine your wife having a baby in 2010 and you leaving until 2011 when that child was a year old...spend a year at home still working every day and then leaving again in 2012 to return in 2013 with your child now three years old ? Multiply this several times and a soldier who deploys five times in ten years has a child who is ten but he has only watched 5 years of that ten year olds life? You canot enjoy that. Now add in the fact that you are sometimes forced to kill or be killed...the fact you have to watch an 18 year old next to you die because of a bullet in his head...or a group of soldiers you work with every day die from a bomb planted in the middle of a road.

Keep in mind that civilians die from these road side bombs just simply trying to go to work each day but because some iliterate idiot who does not get along with the rest of the world plants it there to terrify the rest of the people to do what they tell them. They show up at your house and demand that you feed them and provide them shelter or they will kill your family and you if you do not. We build schools and provide clean water facilities for village after village...books...supplies...and food with great appreciation from the people in the village only to have some idoit come along and take the food...destroy the frest water facilities and kill every girl in the school and burn the books and the school to the ground. This is the way of life in Afghanistan...and these people are tired but too weak and beaten down to stand up for themselves so we as a country that has enjoyed freedom for many years offer aid in any way we can...sadly enough that way is war and its a fact that people good and bad die in war. This is not the goal but a result.

there are idiots and generally rotten people in our army as well...people that would not make it on the outside and find some sort of acceptance inside as long as they tow the line and these people are the ones that make the rest of us look bad by killing innocent people...they are dealt with as you can see from the trials that we have had lately...just do not make the mistake of thinking that war is ever ethical...that is just stupid...never has been and never will be ethical.

I will never make an excuse for war...and no one has ever claimed they are fighting for your freedoms in Iraq or Afghanistan...the exact opposite we are provideing an opportuinity to those people to enjoy the freedom we have and often take for granted. Our past speaks for itself and wars have been fought to preserve your freedom whether you admit it or not...the current war is being fought to keep these idoits out of our lives and from taking what little freedoms we have left and an attempt to provide freedom to many others that have nevr had the opportunity for freedom we have. No excuse for war its ugly and wrong but its not ever going to go away so we must choose battles wisely if we can...

Originally posted by Ashes of the wake
reply to post by Snoopy1978

 

Well said. I am just sick of the same things you mentioned. Just because a "superior" gave you an order doesnt mean that is to be followed. Especially if that order is unjust or immoral. It is not an excuse in the real world but is widely accepted when it comes to the military.

"Unjust" and "immoral" are not valid canon to measure the validity of an order against, because such things are subjective rather than objective - the perception of what constitutes them varies from person to person.

For example, I find the way you trash the military to be both unjust AND immoral, yet you do it any way.

Morality? Whose morality do we use? Christian? Islamic? Wiccan? There are certain animistic tribes that think it's perfectly moral to eat their enemies, and in fact that is a DUTY. Should we go by THAT morality?

Determining and enforcing YOUR morality for you is not my job.

The valid measure of whether an order is proper or not is the legality of it. That is an OBJECTIVE criterion rather than a subjective one. Soldiers are required to disobey illegal orders under the UCMJ.

Originally posted by Ashes of the wake
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I am not thinking for anyone.

No, you're really not - your just trying your level best to, and failing miserably. You have the gall to tell THEM what they think, how they feel, and WHY they fight.

I'm willing to bet not many will fall for that over what they already know to be within themselves, but knock yourself out trying.

It is not an opinion but a fact.

No, it's opinion.

Just because they think that they are fighting for the freedom of the american people does not mean that they really are.

True - and just because YOU think they are not does not mean they aren't. I'm inclined to believe each man when he tells me why he does what he does. No one else is in his head to tell any different.

Every man knows his own heart better than any others possibly can.

reply to post by nenothtu


It seems you have either served or have close friends or relatives that have, and i understand why your biased toward the subject. You cant deny what i said. These wars are for profit and empire. We are killing hundreds of thousands of people in a country across the globe in a war we waged based on lies. These are not opinions, they are facts.

You alone make the decision to join the military knowing that you were going to war. War is murder, plain and simple. You signed up to murder people from another land, and i am supposed to ask no questions and just pretend like everythings ok? I have to completely respect the troops no matter what they are doing over there? That kind of attitude is why we are in this mess in the first place. Oh no, we cant ever question the military industrial complex, they must be telling the truth

Eisenhower tried to warn us, but not enough listened.

Originally posted by Ashes of the wake
reply to post by nenothtu

 

It seems you have either served or have close friends or relatives that have, and i understand why your biased toward the subject.

I have never served in a national army. I have been militarily trained, and have had occasion to put that training to work. Why I am "biased" is really immaterial, but it could well be because I see so much irrational bias in the other direction that I feel a burning need to counter it. That bias is not really the fault of those who carry it - they have been lied to and led around to the point that they think they know of things that they have no experience of, and will argue the point with some vehemence.

You cant deny what i said. These wars are for profit and empire.

Is that what you are saying? if so I categorically deny it. Have you ever been to Afghanistan? I have. There is nothing there of any value for either profit OR empire. Iraq is a different matter, but China is getting the bulk of the oil contracts from Iraq, so where is the profit for the American Federal Empire? Libya likewise, except their pitiful 2% of world oil supply is going to Europe.

For what it's worth, I was against both the Iraq and Libya wars from the start, for reasons not really germane to this thread. Being against the wars, however, doesn't mean I am against the soldiers who fight in them. They deserve my support rather than my condemnation, for they have seen and experienced thing that no man should ever have to, but many of us have all the same. You seem to be blissfully unaware of what you are doing by denigrating them.

I lived in the woods by myself for several years to get away from that sort of irrational condemnation, and increasingly I'm beginning to think that the best thing for me to do is go back into them, and not come back out this time. I'm beginning to think there may not be anything left out here worth protecting.

It really gets my goat that there are people out here claiming to love mankind, yet doing their level best to utterly destroy individual men by trying to steal their dignity. Some men need to be destroyed - desperately, utterly, and completely. Instead of doing that, these people who "love mankind" hose the whole bunch down with a fire hose, hoping to dampen the spirit of the one or two who need it, and blasting the whole in the process.

We are killing hundreds of thousands of people in a country across the globe in a war we waged based on lies. These are not opinions, they are facts.

Nope, opinion again. In the case of Iraq, "lies" were not the basis, they were the excuse, nor were they entirely lies. I presume you are talking about the WMD story. In the case of Afghanistan and Libya, I can't even begin to fathom what "lies" you are speaking of.

You alone make the decision to join the military knowing that you were going to war.

That is correct. Some people feel a different sense of responsibility for their fellows than you do, and will act according in spite of the privations they know they will have to endure.

War is murder, plain and simple. You signed up to murder people from another land, and i am supposed to ask no questions and just pretend like everythings ok?

That is incorrect. Murder is an unjustifiable homicide, with malice aforethought. Some wars are so thoroughly justifiable that you are engaging in murder by NOT engaging in them. It's not as simplistic as you seem to simplistically think.

I have to completely respect the troops no matter what they are doing over there? That kind of attitude is why we are in this mess in the first place. Oh no, we cant ever question the military industrial complex, they must be telling the truth

Eisenhower tried to warn us, but not enough listened.

You don't have to respect ANYONE you don't want to respect. People have died so that you can disrespect any damn body you please, up to and including the President.

You have to live with yourself concerning the lives you destroy.

Just as a soldier does. The difference is HE does it up close and personal, and gets his own hands dirty in the process. You do it from the confines of a safety net - a safety net that the soldier ensures that you have, and you don't even have to break a nail to do your damage.

reply to post by DJMSN


WTF, can they say to you? Nothing! Nope, they can spit on "us", (I was 11bravo U.S army infantry).They can disrespect us; they even can hold us to a standard that they could never understand. Their blatant beating of lips, is a freedom they exercise because of life lost for their pompous civilian freedoms, exercised by freedom of thought

Because apparently they think, they have freedom of mouth, sorry that’s the term I would use for this but you may say speech!?. No matter how you look at it, and no matter how much you idiots want to say we (Americans) are Nazi’s. Nice try! Please provide links to gas chambers or even mass genocide that America has bestowed upon a RACE of individuals that we consider as GOVERNMENT POLICY, LESS THAN HUMAN. Use mass policy examples; I don’t want rogue soldiers, punished by the so called "corrupt Amerikan justice system". I WANT MASS DESTRUCTIVE POLICY OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT THAT ERADICATES A PEOPLE/ PEACEFUL OR OTHERWISE. You show me that! and ill submit, in fact! I will fight against this tyranny, but here are your facts you will show me.

Opinion: why the twin tower’s and world trade center seven fell
Fact: The amount of heat produced by the explosion and molten materials sent into world trade center seven were more than efficient enough to destroy all three buildings and damage several smaller buildings not talked about,(simply because of lack of casualties)link en.wikipedia.org...
Opinion: On why we went into Afghanistan
Fact: America and it allies had been attack numerous time’s leading up to September 11th. Just taking into account American targets. Aden, Yemen A bomb targeting U.S soldiers at the Gold Mohur hotel.
The USS Cole, Somalia, First World trade center bombings 1993, 1998 U.S embassy bombings. So not in order but in reality there was over a ten to twenty year period of U.S and allied force loss of life before America directly responded with invasion of “terrorist harboring nations”.
Opinion: On why we invaded Iraq
Indeed, no weapons of mass destruction were found, our intelligence misled us. Likely Saddam did carry such weapons but moved them before our invasion. Regardless the war at this point was unpopular and beginning to seem drawn out and never ending, this reason (W.M.D which was meritable at the time) was used, to gain a strong hold in the Middle East where Muslim extremist multiply by the day. So now we are at the so called heart of fundlemental extremist Islamic strong hold. We take control of Iraq and keep strategic points in the rest of the Middle East (Afghanistan/Iraq)
Opinion: on Americas so called modern day “Imperialism”
Yes America has spread its influence and democracy through out many lands, (by war) some of which I disagree with. But I will say this, Vietnam war, discordant with many of today’s dogma’s Vietnam. America sent it soldiers to die in Vietnam number one because of COMMUNISM which America was adamantly apposing at the time. Remember Russia American relations during this period. Also to bail out the French, which indeed American interests were vested in, but only because of a long history of relations between the two. Usually comprising of America saving the French in some way or another.
Opinions: On why America hate’s …. Please fill in the blank
Fact: America doesn’t hate anyone, group, or creed, of people. You all should know America is a mixture of all people, groups, and creeds that have come together for one purpose: and that is. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and this nation will defend it’s self and it’s allies against any who threaten any of the previously stated.

Opinion: why has America done what it’s done, and is doing what it’s doing.(yes indeed this statement may seem like a gross generalization ignoring the facts, sadly most anti American arguments fall along this line of argument)
Fact: America has done what it’s done, (g ranted not always right) and is doing what it’s doing because, quiet frankly there is no other country in this world who has the ability and justice that reigns as domestic policy, to send relief in time’s of disaster that give’s money as charitable love, who sends war only to give the destroyed voices a hope that they can be heard.

And to all those who wish nothing but America death and wish it soldiers a horrible humiliating ending, I say this,” America will not die from some outside influence but from within, and even if we do collapse upon our selves’ and we accumulate into nothing remember this, America is a not a WE, YOU, I, OR ME, but a collaboration and unison between all races working for the common good of man”.

Fact: let’s hope America dose not cease to exist
God bless America, God bless the World.

reply to post by nenothtu


Grasping at straws here? Want to get into semantics and define morality? Get real. You know very well about this being an illegal war of aggression + occupation. Drone attacks taking out blocks of innocents for a couple of suspects, extraordinary rendition, torture, white phosphorous, depleted uranium, raids on civilian residences, soldiers guarding poppy fields, oil wells with ample knowledge of the exclusive involvement granted to multinational corporations before the invasion, etc. You know very well, but wont UNDERSTAND. Why will you not understand? Could it be blind fear of supporting a criminal government and shatter the illusion of having well-meaning protectors? Fear of admitting you have let, in your sheer arrogance, be duped so long into believing and defending this sad state of affairs?

Maybe there is an even more sinister reason as this quote may highlight:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
- Upton Sinclair

Leonidas-admiring-guy, it is never too late to change your mind for the good of humanity.

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Grasping at straws here? Want to get into semantics and define morality? Get real.

Hoss, I'm as real as it gets already. Define your own morality. As I very plainly said, defining YOUR morality isn't my job. Don't expect me to follow your morality. That's not MY religion, it's yours.

This is why we have law apart from religious notions of morality to begin with. We all live under the same law, and so don't have to live under the same religious notions.

You know very well about this being an illegal war of aggression + occupation.

Absolutely not. "Illegal"? Are you sure you want to debate the legality of ANY of these wars with me? If you are sure, we can damn sure go there. Same for "aggression" and "occupation". The three in combination constitute a catch phrase I've heard many, many times, with no basis in the real world - it's just a cute catch phrase employed by those who don't know better, and who REALLY, REALLY hope no one else knows any better, either.

I DO know better.

Even the wars I disagree with and think were boneheaded moves are legal - they're just ill-advised, boneheaded. That isn't the soldiers' faults.

"Agression"? Son, if your wars are not "aggressive", you're doing it all wrong.

And YOU tell ME to "get real"? Sure, make sure you want that debate, and we'll have at it. I'll tell you up front that will get a lot more real than you intended, with delving into actual law, rather than your fantasies and imagination of what is law.

"Illegal wars of aggression and occupation"? Is that YOU, Jane?

Drone attacks taking out blocks of innocents for a couple of suspects, extraordinary rendition, torture, white phosphorous, depleted uranium, raids on civilian residences, soldiers guarding poppy fields, oil wells with ample knowledge of the exclusive involvement granted to multinational corporations before the invasion, etc. You know very well, but wont UNDERSTAND.

That's quite a laundry list. Just where do you want to start knocking it down? By the looks of that list, it's not ME whose the one which "won't understand", but any of us can be educated. Teach me, if you think you can. I can guarantee one of us will learn things.

Why will you not understand? Could it be blind fear of supporting a criminal government and shatter the illusion of having well-meaning protectors? Fear of admitting you have let, in your sheer arrogance, be duped so long into believing and defending this sad state of affairs?

None of the above. That diatribe does, however, lead me to wonder just what it is you are in fear of, which monster in the closet has stunted your growth.

Maybe there is an even more sinister reason as this quote may highlight:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
- Upton Sinclair

Izzat so? Just what is it you think you know about me? Don't be shy - blurt it right out like a man.

Leonidas-admiring-guy, it is never too late to change your mind for the good of humanity.

That brings a grin to my face. As soon as someone has to drop back to assaulting an avatar, I know beyond doubt that they have nothing of substance to back their rants, and will fold like a cheap lawn chair when confronted with fact.

Humanity can kiss my warm and fuzzy ass. People are what is important, not your grand, sweeping, misguided ideas of "humanity". I've already addressed the sort of person who professes a love for "humanity" - They don't give a DAMN for the very individual people who make up this nebulous "humanity", preferring to lump everyone together into a collective they think they can command and control, drive like a herd.

Matter of fact, your kind of person is the very reason we have these goddamned wars to begin with.

Make double sure you really want to get into this particular debate, and we'll have right at it!

reply to post by Snoopy1978


Goodness I hope you are young and just naive....please understand that ALL wars are aggressive...please name one that was not aggressive....people are killed on both sides...good and bad.

Drones are simply aircraft which drop bombs...no bombs yet which can tell good people from bad...so back to war causes death both good and bad...as for illegal...not by the constitution as the President has the authority to order troops to war and he was backed by the Country and the Congress...just because one or two of us see it differently does not matter...the majority rules in a democracy so deal with it.

Rendition is not new...been used by many goverments over the years to get suspects out of one country to another...right or wrong...not for me to decide and the military does not perform renditions that area of operations belongs to the CIA and the NSA...so do not blame the military for the actions of other branches of goverment.

Torture has always been in use as well...do I agree with it...no and most military members do not either however we are very aware that torture has been used against us...in this war and in the past. Aside from a few idiots torture is not a part of the miltary SOP...again this belongs at the door step of the CIA and NSA..

White phosporus is never used against people if it is used at all...I have never witnessed its use nor would I condone its use...mainly it was designed to be used against hard targets like armor...however I have personal knowledge of its use against us in Afghanistan...and in what I would consider a very hazardous way thru indirect fire which could go anywhere like amoung the civilian population...these people do not care who they kill least of all their own people...they manage to have a hefty supply on hand from the days of their fight with the Russians who left it behind....again I have no knowledge of its use by our troops and since you supply no evidence...I will dismiss it to you believing what you read on the internet.

Depleted uranium...this I do not know of...its use is for again armor...and since no armor in Afghanistan I doubt it is used...in Iraq...posssiably early in the war when there were actually threats of armor but no reason for it now...again you supply no links to show its use...but since I do not know and it is likely to have been used I will not comment other than my own first hand expierance.

Raids on civilian residences...they are civilians we are fighting....of course we raid their homes...which are basically bomb making factories and safe harbors...this army wears no uniform so its hard to tell the difference between good and bad. most people welcome the prescence of soldiers even if its the wrong house or bad intell....they usually share what they know about where the Taliban is.

Soldiers guarding poppy fields...well yes and no...usually they are destroyed however soldiers may wait at the request of village elders to wait for the taliban to come back to their field so that we may capture them...they wont come back if the fields are no longer there. While the villagers make money from the poppy fields...it is not their choice of crop..they perfer to grow something their families can eat but the Taliban forces them to grow it..then take it all so the villagers are left with nothing...this is how the Taliban purchase weapons and bomb making materials with the illegal drug trade.

Nopw with the oil wells...I am pretty sure you must be talking of Iraq here since there is no oil in Afghanistan...surely you realize that American and western countries...compaines like BP...Ammoco...Exxon...and Penzoil have always operated the oil fields in the middle east...these countries have lacked knowledge and the equipment to operate them by themselves so they lease the fields to those big companies and reap the profits right along with them...they sure do not share those profits with the people unless you happen to be a family or tribe member of the ruling party...no deals have ever been made by the military in regards to oil..so do not lay that at our feet.

My salary does not depend on war...never has and necer will. I do make more money while deployed but I would rather stay home and do my job...so I get paid whether the country is at war or not...this country was at peace for a long time but still paid its army and always will. I do not understand or pretend to understand war...no one ever will,,however to bring people some form of freedom like we have here and they want it we do what we can...I suggest you leave this country and live over there where you believe people are happy being beaaten for showing their face in public or because they are reading a book...or because they went to school...because they choose not to pray...or to pray but to the wrong diety for some...these people need our help...want our help

reply to post by RightWingAvenger

Well said.

Unfortunately the sheeple are very easily programmed. TPTB shape the discussion. And the discussion never involves an end to the constant wars. They shape the debate on how to fight, or which tactics should be used, or the "mind of the enemy", or should we support one dictator over another...

The debate NEVER revolves around ending the wars unless of-course Ron Paul is speaking.