This is what a police state looks like...

The police are out number 20:1 if not more. The only people who were getting hit were the ones in range. That means that the people were not smart enough to move away from the clubs, or the cops were in a postion that they would have gotten overran and hurt if they didn't keep the people back. The cops were doing their jobs and wanting to get back home to thier spouces and kids. Are people really saying that they would let a mob of people around them to attack them?

reply to post by OrchusGhule


Where did I say inaction? Where?

I said nonviolent. You want to play right into the authoritarians hands? Then get violent. You'll also, if your lucky, wind up in prison, more likely you'll wind up dead. What good your violence then?

An armed rebellion doesn't last one day. Or even one year. Iraq as an example, ten years and showing no signs of going away anytime soon. Personally, I don't really want to see that here, thank you kindly.

You seem to think it'll be easier to whip out the old rifle and shoot 'em all, and that'll make the whole all better... Really? For whom? The ones with the most guns, I'm guessing... That would be *drumroll* the powers that be.

Change is needed. The means towards that change is what we're arguing about here. Violence isn't yet the answer.

Getting involved. Getting off our dead asses and making them hear our voices. Ballot boxes. Don't let them cheat. It can be done. But it takes more work than most Americans, and Europeans seem willing to put forward these days... Shame on us.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by OrchusGhule

 

Where did I say inaction? Where?

I said nonviolent. You want to play right into the authoritarians hands? Then get violent. You'll also, if your lucky, wind up in prison, more likely you'll wind up dead. What good your violence then?

An armed rebellion doesn't last one day. Or even one year. Iraq as an example, ten years and showing no signs of going away anytime soon. Personally, I don't really want to see that here, thank you kindly.

You didn't. I said inaction. OWS is the definition of inaction. Sitting around in public places with signs does nothing, as you can see from the results of this several month long protest. Non-violence plays right into the authoritarians' hands, as you can see by the complete lack of change involving corporate, banking, and government corruption. They FEAR armed rebellion, because they know that most of their lackeys (police, military) will turn on them and join to oppose them instead of killing their own people. That is why the state has ALWAYS infiltrated these movements to keep them peaceful. Ballot boxes?? Don't make me laugh. Letters to your representatives? They don't even read them. But I guess since all you want to do is run around with signs, yelling, you've already given up.

Put down your Gandhi shield.

You are attempting, with moral reasoning, to pursuade people who have no morals. If they had, they would not have done the things they have.

reply to post by OrchusGhule


I gotta agree with most of that. A while ago I emailed the NYC PBA after reading about their ridiculous antics with their 500 strong protest over the ticket fixing stuff. okay great, they protested. isn't it bad enough that they were given special treatment and brought to court in a black van and kept from the media's eye? or that even though many want them made examples, most will get a slap on the wrist.

Anyway, you think they responded with as much an an automated "STFU cause we don't care" style reply "thanking" me for the email? no. They probably had a chuckle and showed it around a bit before deleting it. Not to mention, one of my points was how THEY are paid by the very people they abuse. so they probably tracked my IP (which was routed via proxies anyway LOL

reply to post by IndigoValor


Taking over private property is nothing? Amazing!

Sounds like I better put up razor wire around my home if this is where we are going. People thinking they can just do whatever they want on private property is a very bad direction to go. Somebody needs to slap those kids parents for releasing them on us in that condition.

What do you expect the Police to do when a group of criminals (yes criminals, not protestors) takes over private property? Can I come and take over your home and do what I want. If that is OK, me taking over your home should be OK, should it not? Same thing exactly.

reply to post by pyrael


In case you've forgotten, Ghandi succeeded. India became free.

I'm not advocating just waving signs. Nor am I just advocating writing a single letter. One letter...one sign...one anything doesn't do anything, as you rightly point out.

But millions of signs? Millions, or more, letters? People advocating for change in any of a myriad of ways will get the change we all want. But it'll take work. Yes, work. It won't happen tomorrow, nor next week, or even next year, but it can start. If you, and others, insist on thinking that nothing will work, you're already defeated. You might as well cast yourself into a grave and pull the sod over yourself.

We didn't give away as much as we have over night. It happened gradually, with the erosion of our "give a damn"... It won't come back any quicker, unless we work at it.

That means those signs, and letters you so denigrate. It means getting good candidates to run for office. It means watching those good candidates once we get them in office, so that they remain good.

It's called involvement.

Originally posted by randomname
aren't you allowed to hit back. isn't self defence to use force to stop a police officer from cracking your head open with a baton.

Actually yes you are allowed to defend yourself against a police officer. The problem is, eventually you will be arrested and you will have to prove that you were defending yourself and not assaulting an officer. This is no easy task when you have 25 police officers all saying the same thing, "He resisted arrest", "he attempted to assault an officer", or my favorite "He was trying to run away and flee even though he was laying face down on the ground and force was necessary"

I can not wait for the day that the sheep actually fight back. It wont be much longer. You can not continue to abuse people and expect them to sit back and take it. I can not help but wonder what would happen or what would the other police do if while jabbing their batons at people, who are posing a threat by standing still, suddenly had his baton grabbed and found himself pulled into a mob of protesters and quickly surrounded. I can not lie... I am a terrorist because that is exactly what I would have done. The first cop that jabs me with a baton will quickly find himself pulled into the mob and outnumbered with his pig buddies on the other side. We would see how these cops like it when the shoe is on the other foot for a change.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by pyrael

 

In case you've forgotten, Ghandi succeeded. India became free.

I'm not advocating just waving signs. Nor am I just advocating writing a single letter. One letter...one sign...one anything doesn't do anything, as you rightly point out.

But millions of signs? Millions, or more, letters? People advocating for change in any of a myriad of ways will get the change we all want. But it'll take work. Yes, work. It won't happen tomorrow, nor next week, or even next year, but it can start. If you, and others, insist on thinking that nothing will work, you're already defeated. You might as well cast yourself into a grave and pull the sod over yourself.

We didn't give away as much as we have over night. It happened gradually, with the erosion of our "give a damn"... It won't come back any quicker, unless we work at it.

That means those signs, and letters you so denigrate. It means getting good candidates to run for office. It means watching those good candidates once we get them in office, so that they remain good.

It's called involvement.

Talk to some actual Indians and see what they have to say about Ghandi. Many hate him because he was a collaborator. Then ask who the real face of the rebellion was. His name was Bhagat Singh. He lead armed resistance and direct action tactics, and they worked. Ghandi allowed the British to rule by proxy, and the rebellion died. Millions of letters or billions, they don't care. Elect anyone you want; the people calling the real shots don't care.

Heres another video from a different angle...



Oakland is starting to gather large numbers of people... seems like Northern California is going to explode..University of California system wide student strike approved for next Tuesday

Oakland Helicopter video...

Here's a simple answer...

You hippies say that a police officer knows the dangers of his job and too bad if something happens to him...

Hippies know the dangers of fighting with the police and taunting us so too bad if something happens to you...


PLAIN AND SIMPLE LOGIC NO???

Originally posted by N3k9Ni
The police attacked without apparent provocation. The people responded by pulling the injured to safety and shielding them. It's infuriating, but the people handled it just as they should have. Non-violent resistance.

I disagree. I think the correct response would have been for all of the protestors to bum-rush the police line all at once and just walk over them. Don't even have to throw a punch, just use sheer numbers to push them down and keep walking. A few batons wouldn't stop a sea of humanity.

Then, the next time, the police may think twice before initiating violence.

reply to post by maya27


Hell yeah man!!! we need tae go greek style on them

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by pyrael

 

In case you've forgotten, Ghandi succeeded. India became free.

I'm not advocating just waving signs. Nor am I just advocating writing a single letter. One letter...one sign...one anything doesn't do anything, as you rightly point out.

But millions of signs? Millions, or more, letters? People advocating for change in any of a myriad of ways will get the change we all want. But it'll take work. Yes, work. It won't happen tomorrow, nor next week, or even next year, but it can start. If you, and others, insist on thinking that nothing will work, you're already defeated. You might as well cast yourself into a grave and pull the sod over yourself.

We didn't give away as much as we have over night. It happened gradually, with the erosion of our "give a damn"... It won't come back any quicker, unless we work at it.

That means those signs, and letters you so denigrate. It means getting good candidates to run for office. It means watching those good candidates once we get them in office, so that they remain good.

It's called involvement.

Well it wasn't all Ghandi and it wasn't all one of anything that freed India. But that point ends up moot most times anyway as it tends to derail a topic. i should have been clearer when stated my agreement. i don't believe one avenue of action will solve our problems anyway.

Sure, peaceful protest is great, but generally it falls on deaf ears. look at the occupy movement. There's so much extra crap happening and MSM reporting them all as kooks that the real messages end up drowned out. it sucks because the intentions were admirable, but their execution and the overwhelming amount of nutjobs injected into it (and getting the press's attention) and the obvious and blatant interference by the opposing side have given it a bad name.

Vote in better people, I'm sure there is a chance. The question isn't what needs to be done, and as you said it take allot more than one. The question is how many people can YOU (as in any one person) hope to influence enough to drag them away from their i-Things, internet and prime-time TV to actually care about anything outside their own little fantasy world?

Same with writing 1,000s of letters and posting petitions. I have personally signed 600 petitions this year. only 50 were in person, but I gladly signed them and convinced my wife to do the same. The rest were online petitions, but petitions all the same. Personally, sometimes I feel my congressmen and senators have a special inbox just for MY letters. (1/2 the time I feel it's probably the round one with the burger wrappers)

I feel that, inevitably, it will come down to blows. history repeats itself and history dictates that bloodshed is coming. I don't condone or promote unprovoked violence, but I'd be damned if I were to allow violence against me and mine. I still feel that we wouldn't be in the mess we're in if 100 years or so ago, people had not stopped living that way. No one appears willing to fight, weather politically, economically, socially or physically any more. We've become complacent and pathetic and have no-one to blame for the mess we're in but ourselves and our "way of life"

So no, I wasn't condemning non-violence, I was condemning the inaction that the whiners won't take to fix it.

thumbs up for you anyway

Protestors need to get organized, with riot shields and barricades of their own.
An independent mercenary organization that has the means to put down violence on either side would be usefull as well.
Horse lines would be a good idea.
Use the police tactics against them. This doesn't mean getting violent it just means make it less rewarding for the police to get violent.

Things are going to happen when police officers are pushed to the limit. How come OWS doesn’t report all the brutality inflicted to the officers by the protesters? How about the rocks and bottles? Where are those videos? It’s only when a protester gets hurt, that all hell breaks loose.

But don’t fret; we have people (like this guy in the following video) who will put the police in their place if anything should happen. I feel much safer now…

Originally posted by Magnum007
Here's a simple answer...

You hippies say that a police officer knows the dangers of his job and too bad if something happens to him...

Hippies know the dangers of fighting with the police and taunting us so too bad if something happens to you...


PLAIN AND SIMPLE LOGIC NO???

You're doing it wrong.

I understand pretty well how cops feel in all of this. The problem is "no one can serve two masters". Cops find themselves stuck in a bad place. Their higher ups say "do this" meanwhile, they have that oath they swore echoing in their heads and STILL further, They have the issue of maybe in the back of their mind they agree with the people they are sworn to protect but have to obey an order. It's gotta suck bad.

My father served 2 tours in Vietnam just to come home to a bunch of "Hippies" protesting at the airport. Calling him a baby killer and what have you. My Step dad was stateside and had to work riot control for protests. Both sides there sucked. Neither wanted to do what they were ordered to do and to this day I can't fathom how they came to terms with it all. It's something we don't discuss.

Those "Hippies" aren't your enemy. They don't have a beef with YOU. They have a beef with the tyranny that is ordering you around. You think ANYONE really wants to be in a position to HAVE to defend themselves from an unlawful beating by a cop? NO WAY! The general public would NEVER expect it.

When you are standing there in a line with the rest of the cops keeping protesters from moving (assumed for safety reasons) you are doing your job. HOWEVER the MOMENT some bureaucrat gives you the order to hit an unarmed and defenseless civilian, YOU are breaking the very laws you are sworn to uphold.

Perhaps if the police at these events held that mindset things would be better. But alas, TPTB don't like when the slaves get too far out of line.

Be one of the better cops. I'd say good, but honestly there isn't just black and white in the world and even the "worst" cop has the potential to be a "good" cop. Being one of the better cops is more honorable IMO.

Originally posted by thinline
The police are out number 20:1 if not more. The only people who were getting hit were the ones in range. That means that the people were not smart enough to move away from the clubs, or the cops were in a postion that they would have gotten overran and hurt if they didn't keep the people back. The cops were doing their jobs and wanting to get back home to thier spouces and kids. Are people really saying that they would let a mob of people around them to attack them?

WTF. Cops were attacked by a mob? No. The police clearly instigated it.

The students were standing there peaceable & were using their First Amendment right to assemble.

You know I'm right.

reply to post by pyrael


All you can do is what you can do. Get to as many as you can.

There is an old saying that goes something like this: "The glory isn't in the failure, or success. It's in the striving." All we can do is our best. If it isn't good enough, that's the way it was fated to be. No shame in failure. It's only shameful if we don't try...

In our world of the fifteen second sound bite, and the attention span of a two year old, it's tough to get people to give a damn, or even half a one. But slowly, people are beginning to wake to it. It's not going to happen over night, or even in the next year, but it's starting. Or so my hope tells me.

I use that hope to keep myself trying. It's all any of us can do. Use the small to keep working for the big.

Trite, and right off of a greeting card, but true never the less.

reply to post by Propulsion


When Help is a hinderance lol
2nd

Originally posted by jlv70
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if there are two different species roaming around this planet who happen to look the same on a superficial level.
I don't understand how you could beat someone else's daughter with a nightstick and then go home at the end of the day to your own kids.
What is going on in their minds that allows them to do these things and then live with their selves afterwards?

These cops have a job to do that is all this is, its a job. And they will do as they are told to do, if they like to keep their job. That is what they will tell their kids when they get home.