Plato Got It Right 2,400 Years Ago (OWS)

Plato got it right...

It might be worth everyone's while in these troubled times to set aside an evening in order to carefully read Book VIII of Plato's Republic.The dialogue is nothing less than chilling in its illustration of what happens in a popular government when corrupt politicians inflame the vices of undisciplined citizens in order to destroy the business class and establish a tyranny.

Plato describes why OWS has singled out “the 1%” as the enemy.

Democracy arises when those thrown out of their homes discover that the rich Oligarchs and their kids are soft and lazy. They rebel and set up popular rule. The people want freedom more than anything else, so they are highly sensitive to any kind of "master" including objective standards of behavior, merit, and manners. Therefore, the people's desire for freedom makes anyone in a position of authority highly suspect.

He described how conservatives will be cursed while liberals are rewarded.

Politicians who urge self-restraint, thrift, and balanced-budgets are punished and cursed while those politicians who promise whatever the people want in "copious draughts" are rewarded. Parents are afraid to discipline their kids, and teachers begin flattering their students (grade inflation, extra credit, etc.).

Many of us who disagree with the direction and socialist agenda of OWS have been calling for protesting Washington instead of Wall Street. The threat our out-of-control government poses is the single greatest threat we face. We understand that if we stop corruption in government and force accountability we can stop this downward spiral toward tyranny. Plato had it right! It’s the government, stupid!

Plato's objective is to show how highly self-disciplined regimes gradually devolve into more inferior and immoderate governments. Socrates begins the discussion showing how Aristocracies (rule of the wisest) devolve into Timocracies (rule of the military) which then descend into Oligarchies (rule of the wealthy). Oligarchies descend into Democracies (rule of the people) which in turn become Tyrannies.

Pay attention to the final section: how a Democracy becomes a Tyranny. The process starts back when the rulers are Oligarchs. A kind of Government/Business nexus (think Fannie Mae) figures out that certain undisciplined borrowers will be unable to pay back their loans. The lenders acquire the property and recoup their losses with some kind of bailout. Socrates says none of this crazy lending would have happened if the lenders had had to risk their own funds.

A "special leader" arises who promises even more: cancelling all debts and redistributing the land. The special leader "stirs up faction against the propertied class" but protects himself with a special bodyguard. He starts unnecessary wars to divert attention, becomes unpopular, and then aligns himself more closely with foreigners. To protect himself even further he takes away the people's weapons. The special leader is now a Tyrant.

So do you think this sounds like what’s going on in America today? I sure do! What’s shocking is that Plato’s Republic was written 2,400 years ago.

LINK

S&F I appreciate your insight into Plato's work of the Republic. These implications made by Plato revere men's inability to be governed, which is why we see our own system is beginning to fall flat on its face. We have been driven by "men governing men" when in actualization of our human nature is to be free. Until the people of the world, not just the United States realizes we have all continued to repeat the mistakes of the past. Which by pure irony it seems, places a scholar of 2,400 years ago to state a problem that could have been avoided if we had not decided to repeat history, over and over again.

Originally posted by seabag
Plato got it right...

Many of us who disagree with the direction and socialist agenda of OWS have been calling for protesting Washington instead of Wall Street. The threat our out-of-control government poses is the single greatest threat we face. We understand that if we stop corruption in government and force accountability we can stop this downward spiral toward tyranny. Plato had it right! It’s the government, stupid!

All that young talent, energy and time wasted chasing shadows, banging drums, yelling at buildings while losing credibility when they could have been going after the root cause.

Sad.....

Nothing is new under the sun, this has all been done before. Thats why they say "If you don't know your history you're destined to repeat it."

Knowledge is power and history is the owners manual.

So do you think this sounds like what’s going on in America today? I sure do! What’s shocking is that Plato’s Republic was written 2,400 years ago.

Shocking to me that alleged intelligent people like many in here, still need the Oligarchial model spelled out for them like a three year-old dummy to understand. The whore of Babylon cult is somewhere, owning, owning this world. Such is the great challenge to the creative powers of the members of mankind today.

**Friedrich Schiller had it right too. And he was only about two hundred and forty years ago!!

Schiller Translation
"Gentlemen, it is a delightful and honorable commission for me to wander into the future at your sides, through a field which reveals so many objects of study to the thinking observer, such magnificent examples for the emulation of the active, worldly man, such important explanations for the philosopher, and such rich sources of most noble joy for everyone without exception —the grand and broad field of universal history. The sight of so many splendid young men gathered about me by their noble thirst for knowledge, and in whose midst some genius flourishes who will make himself felt in future ages, transforms my obligation into pleasure, but also makes me feel the weight and importance of this enterprise in its full force. The greater the gift I must bequeath upon you, —and what greater gift than truth has any man to give to man? — the more I must take caution, that its value is not debased in my hands. the more lively and pure your spirit conceives in this happiest epoch of its activity, and the quicker your youthful passions glow, the greater the demand upon me to prevent this enthusiasm, which only truth has the right to awaken, from being wasted unworthily by fraud and deception.

So do you think this sounds like what’s going on in America today?

definitely !

Schools in Athens Democracy in Athens was frequently interrupted by periods of dictatorship. The city was growing enormously wealthy, with a powerful navy and a fleet of trading ships. Meanwhile, the Persian Empire had been expanding westward and capturing Greek colonies. Athens maintained a balance of war and diplomacy with its neighboring cities until around 490 BC, when all of Greece was forced to unite against an invasion by the Persians. The wealth and freedom of Athens attracted educated people from around the region. Schools began opening where professional teachers lectured on a variety of subjects including law, politics, and commerce. Practical skills were considered to be more valuable to students than philosophical questioning. In any case, teachers widely believed that the hidden workings of the universe might never be known. Anything beyond what the senses can perceive is merely opinion. But the fears of the conservatives were soon realized when schools began teaching that there were no absolute truths and no universal standards for judging human behavior. It was said that ideas about right and wrong either developed through social progress or were determined by those in power. In any case they changed over time. It was also said that the only kind of knowledge that has any real value is the kind that leads to material success. A practical education in law, politics, or commerce is not about being truthful, but rather about using persuasive arguments to convince other people to believe your opinions. Some schools even taught that personal ambition is more valuable than the welfare of the community.

www.evolutionary-metaphysics.net...

reply to post by SLAYER69


You need to read the entire dialogue and not just extract pieces that justify a mindset. Earlier the following was said: "...the men of business, stooping as they walk, and pretending not even to see those whom they have already ruined, insert their sting --that is, their money --into some one else who is not on his guard against them, and recover the parent sum many times over multiplied into a family of children: and so they make drone and pauper to abound in the State". Plato was no more "conservative" than he was "liberal". He spoke against governmental interference as much as he spoke against the wealthy. The Platonic ideal is one of balance and not extremes. Using "The Republic" to push a conservative agenda (not saying you are but I see the danger of it here on ATS) is just plain wrong once you take the entire work into context.

reply to post by dagobert


Great assumption.

I'll dust off my old copy and rehash.

Originally posted by seabag
Many of us who disagree with the direction and socialist agenda of OWS have been calling for protesting Washington instead of Wall Street. The threat our out-of-control government poses is the single greatest threat we face. We understand that if we stop corruption in government and force accountability we can stop this downward spiral toward tyranny. Plato had it right! It’s the government, stupid!

Yeah it's the government, hence:

A capitalistic government grants power/authority to those who engineer biggest profits.

By taking out the "government", which is just a frontman for the people with money, you are essentially doing nothing.

The wealthy elite are the roots, which need to be taken out. They control the "government" you seek to change, therefore it will not change until THEY change.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I didn't mean to single you out but rather hit the "Reply To" button while reading your post. In fact, outside of an allusion to Plato with the "time wasted chasing shadows, banging drums, yelling at buildings" part I didn't really tie your comment into the OP's assertion at all. :-)

Originally posted by prepared4truth

Originally posted by seabag
Many of us who disagree with the direction and socialist agenda of OWS have been calling for protesting Washington instead of Wall Street. The threat our out-of-control government poses is the single greatest threat we face. We understand that if we stop corruption in government and force accountability we can stop this downward spiral toward tyranny. Plato had it right! It’s the government, stupid!

Yeah it's the government, hence:

A capitalistic government grants power/authority to those who engineer biggest profits.

By taking out the "government", which is just a frontman for the people with money, you are essentially doing nothing.

The wealthy elite are the roots, which need to be taken out. They control the "government" you seek to change, therefore it will not change until THEY change.

Hey, I’ve heard that argument before. Many people feel like we’re being ruled by the wealthy. We got here because politicians stopped working for the people and began working to satisfy their own greed. This is where OWS differs from many of us. The blame needs to be placed in the right place. The government should be protecting our institutions from the influence of the wealthy and adhearing to the constitution. They aren’t!!

We need to return to being a democratic republic (a constitutionally limited democracy). As you know, pure democracy is the rule by majority, which leaves individuals and minority groups no protection against the unlimited power of the majority. We can’t devolve into a pure democracy and we don't want tyrannical control. I fear OWS could lead us down the wrong path by attacking the wrong people, which is why “doing something” (I hear that a lot from OWS) is NOT better than doing the right thing. We must attack the right problems and restore our republic through enforcement of the constitution or we could destroy the country and become susceptible to a new batch of psychopaths (tyrants).

Originally posted by dagobert
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You need to read the entire dialogue and not just extract pieces that justify a mindset. Earlier the following was said: "...the men of business, stooping as they walk, and pretending not even to see those whom they have already ruined, insert their sting --that is, their money --into some one else who is not on his guard against them, and recover the parent sum many times over multiplied into a family of children: and so they make drone and pauper to abound in the State". Plato was no more "conservative" than he was "liberal". He spoke against governmental interference as much as he spoke against the wealthy. The Platonic ideal is one of balance and not extremes. Using "The Republic" to push a conservative agenda (not saying you are but I see the danger of it here on ATS) is just plain wrong once you take the entire work into context.

Please! The context of my OP has not changed the message. And what you quoted doesn't contradict my message. The government has failed us. I want limited government that focuses on protecting the people and upholding the constitution. We don't have that right now! We need to get the influence of special interest money out of Washington. We need transparency. We need to stop the quid pro quo BS we have going on now between politicians and the wealthy. We DON'T need to make government bigger or give them more power, which OWS wants as obviously wants because they promote the ISM’s (Socialism, communism, etc). The constitution has the answers.

History does not repeat itself but it does rhyme. Plato got it right, no doubt, because he understood that man will always follow the lowest common denominator: his passions. In democracies the politicians feed off of this to achieve power, men who would otherwise be considered worthless in societies are raised to the top simply for their ability to collect money from the mercantile class and lie to the masses. Whenever people are given the ability to select their own rules they will select the ones that favor what they want now with disregard for later. They do not want to be restrained and politicians do not want to lose power, so it is a mutual relationship of ‘freedom’ and ‘power’ between the masses and the politicians.

When we wake up and realize that the masses are just sacks of potatoes to be moved around so long as it follows a higher code then life for all will be better. Today we wallow in our own misery but do not think it is wallowing, so long as we can buy and spend without some pesky moral laws (internal or external) bothering us the capitalist class will get rich (thus happy) and the masses will be happy (so they think). But the happiness is superficial; when they reach the end of their life what they believed to be happiness was all dust that will blow away with the sands of time. Their short time on this earth was squandered.

The plutocrats and proletariat will always work together until a time comes when the façade of happiness is lifted. Then the proletariat (since they are the masses) will rise up for another liar to deceive them through once again giving them what they want. Perhaps soon we will exit the age we live in, the Kali Yuga, and re-enter a new age of true enlightenment. Those who cannot or will not adjust are best not to occupy this world. A new aristocracy will arise not based upon the bourgeois morality of endless monetary growth or the proletariat morality of nihilistic depravity but transcendence of the individual who will then constitute the new leadership again.

Plato knew this hence the reason he urged for a Republic of ‘Philosopher Kings’. The merchants are servants to money, masses are servants to nihilism, and the ‘Kings’ are servants to transcendent virtue. Men who always look down or around are not worthy of anything besides their own self-inflicted misery, those who look up are deserving of greatness and will one day be rewarded after we have dragged our civilization into the ground.

Plato: The Republic

Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all-they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now.

What do you mean?

I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the den, and partake of their labours and honours, whether they are worth having or not.

Originally posted by Misoir
Plato knew this hence the reason he urged for a Republic of ‘Philosopher Kings’. The merchants are servants to money, masses are servants to nihilism, and the ‘Kings’ are servants to transcendent virtue. Men who always look down or around are not worthy of anything besides their own self-inflicted misery, those who look up are deserving of greatness and will one day be rewarded after we have dragged our civilization into the ground.

Perfectly said! In the US right now we have two groups with their heads in the sand, railing as hard as they can against the other side -- and neither seeing anything they don't want to. The conservatives see a bunch of lazy, pinko commies and the liberals see a bunch of theocratic corporatist fat cats. In reality the problems we face are not even remotely cut and dry.

Putting God into government is not our solution. Regulating morality is not going to save us. Taxing everyone to death is not going to make a dent. The only hope we have is to clean the slate of bipartisian bickering and work on pragmatic, yet forward-thinking, policies that will actually help. My fear is that is absolutely impossible to accomplish.

Originally posted by seabag
Plato got it right...

It might be worth everyone's while in these troubled times to set aside an evening in order to carefully read Book VIII of Plato's Republic.The dialogue is nothing less than chilling in its illustration of what happens in a popular government when corrupt politicians inflame the vices of undisciplined citizens in order to destroy the business class and establish a tyranny.

Plato describes why OWS has singled out “the 1%” as the enemy.

Democracy arises when those thrown out of their homes discover that the rich Oligarchs and their kids are soft and lazy. They rebel and set up popular rule. The people want freedom more than anything else, so they are highly sensitive to any kind of "master" including objective standards of behavior, merit, and manners. Therefore, the people's desire for freedom makes anyone in a position of authority highly suspect.

He described how conservatives will be cursed while liberals are rewarded.

Politicians who urge self-restraint, thrift, and balanced-budgets are punished and cursed while those politicians who promise whatever the people want in "copious draughts" are rewarded. Parents are afraid to discipline their kids, and teachers begin flattering their students (grade inflation, extra credit, etc.).

Many of us who disagree with the direction and socialist agenda of OWS have been calling for protesting Washington instead of Wall Street. The threat our out-of-control government poses is the single greatest threat we face. We understand that if we stop corruption in government and force accountability we can stop this downward spiral toward tyranny. Plato had it right! It’s the government, stupid!

Plato's objective is to show how highly self-disciplined regimes gradually devolve into more inferior and immoderate governments. Socrates begins the discussion showing how Aristocracies (rule of the wisest) devolve into Timocracies (rule of the military) which then descend into Oligarchies (rule of the wealthy). Oligarchies descend into Democracies (rule of the people) which in turn become Tyrannies.

Pay attention to the final section: how a Democracy becomes a Tyranny. The process starts back when the rulers are Oligarchs. A kind of Government/Business nexus (think Fannie Mae) figures out that certain undisciplined borrowers will be unable to pay back their loans. The lenders acquire the property and recoup their losses with some kind of bailout. Socrates says none of this crazy lending would have happened if the lenders had had to risk their own funds.

A "special leader" arises who promises even more: cancelling all debts and redistributing the land. The special leader "stirs up faction against the propertied class" but protects himself with a special bodyguard. He starts unnecessary wars to divert attention, becomes unpopular, and then aligns himself more closely with foreigners. To protect himself even further he takes away the people's weapons. The special leader is now a Tyrant.

So do you think this sounds like what’s going on in America today? I sure do! What’s shocking is that Plato’s Republic was written 2,400 years ago.

LINK

edit on 9-11-2011 by seabag because: (no reason given)

While i do agree with Plato's summarization of the U.S. government, i have to say this one thing.

It is already too late. It was too late 100 years ago.

Originally posted by dagobert
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You need to read the entire dialogue and not just extract pieces that justify a mindset. Earlier the following was said: "...the men of business, stooping as they walk, and pretending not even to see those whom they have already ruined, insert their sting --that is, their money --into some one else who is not on his guard against them, and recover the parent sum many times over multiplied into a family of children: and so they make drone and pauper to abound in the State". Plato was no more "conservative" than he was "liberal". He spoke against governmental interference as much as he spoke against the wealthy. The Platonic ideal is one of balance and not extremes. Using "The Republic" to push a conservative agenda (not saying you are but I see the danger of it here on ATS) is just plain wrong once you take the entire work into context.

From my understanding of Plato, he was not explicitly in favor of balance; that was Aristotle. Plato spoke in terms of Forms and substance, with Forms being the most real and for him therefore the most good. Thus people who knew about the Forms were also able to do the most good. Obviously the people who knew the most about the Forms were philosophers, so he claimed that the best government would be one run by philosopher-kings. Before such a government could be established though, he would need to essentially genocide everyone except young children and philosophers. Children would be raised by people with child-raising skills, not parents. Then the children would be put through a rigorous education designed to determine which children were suited for philosophy. Kids who could not do math and lacked other basic academic skills would become unskilled laborers. The ones who could do basic academics but not advanced academics would become artisans or craftsmen. The ones who could do the advanced academics would be "permitted" to learn philosophy, and would be required to serve as politicians and eventually philosopher-kings. The philosopher-kings' responsibility would be to ensure that everyone would someday get "out of the cave," referring to Plato's allegory of the cave.

This is what Plato explicitly advocated in the Republic. This is also pretty close to what Hitler tried to do, which I would say is anything but balanced.

@OP, Plato was very clever and insightful, for sure, but what he advocated was pretty close to a tyranny anyway. He did not like democracy one bit. For Plato, everyone has their niche, and that includes ruling a society. Ruling is for rulers, and working is for workers. Ruling is not for workers, and working is not for rulers. If there had been an Occupy Athens Agora, it might have been right outside of Plato's house.