Grandma, 36, sold meth while baby-sitting, Kan. authorities allege

Here is an unsavory-looking situation, indeed.

A 36-year-old northeast Kansas woman is accused of selling methamphetamine to an undercover drug agent while baby-sitting her 2-year-old granddaughter.

The Salina Journal reports that Jody Ockert, of Enterprise, was arrested Tuesday on charges that include aggravated child endangerment and distribution of a controlled substance and other offenses

Read more: www.kansascity.com...
I say excellent! Good! Charges for child endangerment. But, now what? Where is this child's parent (if alive)? What are the circumstances here...the history... of this "family"?

A Texas judge is not going to be charged for the proven beating of his daughter, however. I am confused. Truly do not understand how some behaviors get only a "meh" or a "you're excused", but others are rightfully pulled out of the positions of authority and power and oversight, it sends mixed messages.

And we don't need to go nearly that far to find other examples of injustice. Every child deserves protection from harm. Every adult who is given the honor to be a caregiver and protector of a child is expected to live up to that responsibility regardless of their own status, stress level, skill-set, age, or gender. A child is a treasure.

The Texas youth who was belt-beaten by her publicly respected "father" is now an adult, and appears to have endured her abuse without too much apparent damage, in that she is not from outward appearances "messed up." But what will happen to this 2-year-old now? What chances does the child have? Will someone new look after her? And will they be competent and up to the challenge?

These two wildly divergent methods of addressing equally disturbing behaviors (which behaviors are inexcusable in my opinion as a parent) has me really perplexed. I have sometimes fantasized that one should be a card-carrying graduate of a parenting class and psychological test before being designated as a primary care provider. But that's just the mama-bear in me prowling behind the bars, wanting to insist that parents everywhere live up to the life-altering and most important job they will ever have:

Ensuring the child lives to see adulthood and is adequately socialized to do so in a way that is as free from trouble as possible, and is as well-equipped to meet trouble head-on as they can become. That's my philosophy and approach to parenting; but apparently this is not a universally held tenet.

Children learn from watching the adults that care for them. They may not say much, or react much, but these are the behaviors that will become the "normal" for them until they are old enough to realize there are other alternatives. And then, possibly, IF they are resilient enough (which is a temperamental trait, and not a given), they MIGHT come through it with relatively good mental health and coping skills, thrive, and turn their backs on the systems they see don't work. Or else, they buy into that system. And so it goes...generation after generation...
*sigh*

reply to post by wildtimes


A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

reply to post by newcovenant


The grandaughter is 2 years old so she was a 33 or 34 year old grandma depending on her birth date.

OP it is a sad case indeed. It does raise a lot of questions. I hope the grandma gets help, and I hope the mom isn't messed up like grannie. But sometimes crapple doesn't fall far from the tree. I don't want to judge but it sounds like a dysfunctional family.

It's even sadder that this kid will probably get put into the foster system and pumped full of medications.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Children learn from watching the adults that care for them.

Exactly right. However, is this not true for the baby's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents as well? This is the reason for the saying "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons.", is it not? This cycle is not hard to understand, nor is it outrageous in any way. How could you expect that what you view as good parenting should somehow be everyone else's view?

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

Not really. I've heard of 28 year old grandmothers. Pregnant at 14 and then your daughter gets pregnant at 14. Not really unheard of. Especially in some social circles.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Yes, the math just doesn't add up to look good, does it?

But, it's not necessarily the case that the toddler will be put in the foster system and pumped full of drugs...they will first look to place her with extended family, and to counsel the immediate family/household to help them rearrange their lives. The premise in Kansas is that loss of parental rights is the LAST thing, after intensive case management, coaching, education, rehab, what-have-you (depending on what the family's needs are).

That, at least, is a good thing. So it isn't necessarily the outcome that the toddler will automatically become a "crapple."
Hopefully, someone who can tweak her trajectory JUST ENOUGH to send her on another course....will care enough and be skilled enough to pull it off.

It really only takes one caring adult, ONE person who honestly cares and invests themselves, for some otherwise "doomed" kids to pull out of the tailspin. She has a chance. Let's hope it comes her way.

I've looked for any info on the family as to background or history, but nothing has popped up. I'll keep an eye out for it, though.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Exactly right. However, is this not true for the baby's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents as well? This is the reason for the saying "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons.", is it not? This cycle is not hard to understand, nor is it outrageous in any way. How could you expect that what you view as good parenting should somehow be everyone else's view?

I don't expect it.
I know it is not the case, which I have already stated. I said it is my view. I don't aim to put my values on anyone else. And yes, it's true that the family system continues. That's what I said.

The saying "The sins of the fathers..." means, to my understanding, is a threat issued by "God" to scare people into behaving.

The cycle is not at all hard to understand. It's not the cycle that confuses me!!

The INJUSTICE of how different cases are addressed is what perplexes me.
Please don't derail the thread here, I'm talking about justice dispensed and parenting expectations, not family systems.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

That's not even close to unbelievable.

My (step) Grandmother had my stepfather at 15 and he in turn had my (step) sister at 16 making her a grandmother at 31 years old. My (step) sister had her first child at 18 making my (step) father a grandparent at 34.

This isn't even taking into account a 40 year old male marrying a 20 year old female if he has a 17-18 year old child with a baby of their own,which would in turn make his 20 year old wife a (step) grandmother at the age of 20.

Originally posted by Adamanteus

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

That's not even close to unbelievable.

It is pretty close to sad.


Considering...

Teen mothers are less able to emotionally and financially nurture capable healthy well adjusted offspring. www.jstor.org...

Academic and Behavioral Outcomes among the Children of Young Mothers
www.northwestern.edu...

No disrespect intended and of course there are exceptional children born every day but generally speaking: Children of adolescent parents have lower test scores, are kept back in school, have behavioral problems, most likely wind up living in poverty as well are repeating the cycle started by their parents. They may even be guilty of something as stupid as selling drugs with their grand babies present as cited by the OP's thread here. They are known to have sex and children in adolescence themselves thus continuing the cycle. And we wonder why this country is going down the tubes? IMO - Not enough of them are tied.

reply to post by newcovenant



I never said it wasn't sad, Just not unbelievable.

Being someone that has grown up around it I have first hand knowledge of how sad it truly is and luckily I was one of the ones that decided to "break the cycle".

Originally posted by Adamanteus
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I never said it wasn't sad, Just not unbelievable.

Being someone that has grown up around it I have first hand knowledge of how sad it truly is and luckily I was one of the ones that decided to "break the cycle".

I applaud you for that and did not mean to pass judgements but sometimes we just can't help ourselves. At least it is wise as you have illustrated yourself not to be as impulsive when the consequences are so great. In the spirit of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - this is one reason I whole heartedly support paying the pittance now to enable girls BC pills and allow the couple free birth control, rather than pay out the enormous cost to society later.

reply to post by wildtimes




image of the grandmother can be seen on the nacy grace website.

nancy grace website

-subfab

TO newcovenant,
thanks for those links. Good stuff.
I have had the privelege of speaking to conference attendees and youth workers regarding the losses endured when an teen becomes a parent. I have also worked one-on-one with several of them myself, who were voluntary participants in the local Healthy Families service providing parenting education and coaching for them.

I have not worked with court-ordered parents, nor have I been in children's protective services, and I have opinions about how the judicial system and the government protective services address programs (many of which I do NOT agree with).

But the young moms I mentored were very interested and open to learning about how to meet their own needs while caring for their babies. They easily acknowledged the fact that they, too, had lost some of their childhood because of the new responsibilities thrust upon them. And, as I said, they had ASKED for help when they new it was available -- via references from local health department and prenatal care clinics, obgyn offices, etc.

I enjoyed very much working with those girls, and am grateful that I was invited into their homes and able to assist them in addressing their own emotional and practical issues before the baby's arrival, as well as helping them learn about babies' brains, temperamental differences, learning styles, personalities, etc.

EVERY baby is different. And every mom is different. The work I did was to try to help the moms become the most responsive and the best "fit" for their child as possible. Every household, every surprised grandparent, every community is different.
------------------
TO Adamanteus --
thanks very much for chiming in!! Do you feel comfortable disclosing anything more about your personal experience? And as newcov said, what very good news and refreshing awareness that you did break out. Can you give some insight from your perspective on what worked, what didn't, if anyone else's influence or just your own inner guidance assisted you??

------------------
TO subfab --
ughh. I would like to see the photo, but I get nauseated if I see or hear Nancy G at all....I'll have to wait til I can steel myself to endure looking at her page. Or maybe I'll just wait for the photo to be put up somewhere else.
but, thanks!

********************
Will watch for anyone else's thoughts on the best ways to do preventive social intervention.
We had a motto back when I was in the practice with those clients:

We can stand on the shore and drag drowning people out of the rapids all day long, dry them off and send them back upstream, fed and bandaged. But until we find the culprits THROWING THEM FROM THE BRIDGE, we can't expect to have fewer drowning victims thrashing around.

Diff between preventive (hey you, stop throwing them in!), secondary (dry them off, teach them to swim), and tertiary approaches to intervention (well, now it's so bad we have to fix it FOR you).

Running around putting about fires is the least effective method of managing things.

THANKS for your input!!
WT

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

Not really. Sometimes, believe it or not... Kids have sex.... She could have had a kid at 16 who also had one at 16. Or whatever the math would be to have her with a 2 year old grand kid.

Sad really. But it happens.

Originally posted by wildtimes

TO Adamanteus --
thanks very much for chiming in!! Do you feel comfortable disclosing anything more about your personal experience? And as newcov said, what very good news and refreshing awareness that you did break out. Can you give some insight from your perspective on what worked, what didn't, if anyone else's influence or just your own inner guidance assisted you??

THANKS for your input!!
WT

I really am not sure WHY I decided to wait other than the utter and total selfishness of not wanting to be burdened by a responsibility both financial and emotional.(and a need to not bring a child up the way I was)

I must add that although I personally was 24 when my daughter was born her mother was only 19.(so I may not actually count)

Both of us were born into families with a bunch of kids(4 each) and parents that could barely make ends meet, both of our fathers were alcoholics and my mother is schizophrenic.

The only thing I can think of is that myself and my children's mother were both smart enough to realize that the way we grew up was not healthy and that we needed to change something or else this cycle would continue.

People in these situations have to realize that it is NOT healthy and that THEY have to be the ones to break the cycle and they have to WANT to break the cycle,They need to be aware that they will have no support system in doing so since their parents are contributors.

The really sad part is that "normal" kids can go to their parents and say I need advice/help doing this and they will usually get it. These kids that are born to kids don't have this ability because their parents never learned it themselves. They will usually get a "I did it on my own so You can too!" It's sad really because even the ones that do break free sometimes have to deal with their 35-40 year old parent coming and living with them once they start doing good because the parents lack the skills to "make it" on their own.

The hardest part is the "cutting of the ties" (I took this approach just as I would a drug addiction and that's by stop associating with people that're doing what You're trying to stop doing)

I don't associate with my family that still live like this because I don't want my daughters to view it as "normal" so not only did I (self) alienate myself but I have alienated my daughters from the family unit as well.

While my nieces and nephews are allowed( and do come to) my home my children are not allowed to go to my (step) sisters home and stay. While some may find this harsh all I can say is unless You've been there then You cannot begin to understand. This is not an isolated one/two underage parent problem this stuff usually affects whole families through multiple generations. where one parent that has a child at a young age usually results in ALL of their children having babies at a young age.( although you may have an occasional one as myself break free)

I'll give you a parting example. I know one person that had 8 children by the time she was 23(losing a set of twins in this time to a miscarriage also) as far as I know all 8 of those children became parents themselves by the age of 20.

While some people may condemn these people(welfare babies,white trash, lazy bums etc..) You have to realize that it's all they know. IF they were never taught any different then how will they ever know any different.

Sorry for rambling on

reply to post by Adamanteus


Nono, you're not rambling at all!!
(One look at most of my posts and you'll see that I just keep going til I run out of characters much of the time!!)

I completely get, and agree with, what you're saying. Precisely illustrates what I'm trying to get at here.

Thanks so much for pitching in!!
As for your first child being born at Mom's 19, my mom was 19 when I was her first-born back in the late '50s, but my brothers and I were all much older before becoming parents. The second-born has his first at 24, I had my first at 30, and the third had his first at about 26, I believe...

I think there is a certain degree of "education" involved as well. But it amazes me how many do just fall in step -- don't seem at all aware that the microcosm of their family of origin is only that -- and there are alternatives.

Perhaps if you think about it, you can identify details of how you saw past it? I know you said "smart enough," for you and your wife both --- but was there evidence or nearby examples that gave you the hint that there was another way? Or was it simply paying attention??

I know alienating from a counterproductive system is VERY hard; especially when the first thing the parties involved will do is work really hard to get you to "CHANGE BACK!"....

your daughters are fortunate to have parents who can monitor their (the daughters') perceptions and perspectives. Do you share with them WHY you have cut ties? Are they curious? If they asked, would you explain it to them? Or do you feel it's adequate just to say that it's simply your decision? Just wondering. You seem to be a very thoughtful person, and thanks again for your thoughts and courage to discuss it!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Exactly right. However, is this not true for the baby's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents as well? This is the reason for the saying "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons.", is it not? This cycle is not hard to understand, nor is it outrageous in any way. How could you expect that what you view as good parenting should somehow be everyone else's view?

I don't expect it.
I know it is not the case, which I have already stated. I said it is my view. I don't aim to put my values on anyone else. And yes, it's true that the family system continues. That's what I said.

The saying "The sins of the fathers..." means, to my understanding, is a threat issued by "God" to scare people into behaving.

The cycle is not at all hard to understand. It's not the cycle that confuses me!!

The INJUSTICE of how different cases are addressed is what perplexes me.
Please don't derail the thread here, I'm talking about justice dispensed and parenting expectations, not family systems.

I've sat here reading and re-reading this thread for the last 30 minutes and I am truly perplexed by this response considering the discussion here. No discussion of the injustice of this case in relation to the other, all discussion about expectations and expectations are what my comment was about. I was not trying to derail the thread, I was commenting on expectations - I even said the word "expect" in my comment ...

When we talk about parenting expectations, just whose expectations are we really talking about? The people trying to help's expectations? I guess I'm just cautioning against applying expectations of others based on our own perspectives... judging others.

Oh, and about the "sins of the father" comment, I view it as wisdom, and quite applicable here, you don't?

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


Good morning. Thanks for your response.
I want to apologize for what seems (as I read it back) an illogical answer. When you said "How can you expect...." I interpreted it as "ME" 'you', not "A PERSON" 'you'.

Anyway, to try to clarify ....
I have "expectations", or perhaps I should say, "theories" of child-rearing that I hold as top priority.I am in no way saying my way is the only way or the right way....but it is the way that I decided to parent, after considering the various styles and options regarding socializing my own two. (Who are grown now, and doing alright in these trying times - whew!)

I did my best, but NO parent is perfect, including myself. I made mistakes. Every parent makes mistakes, there are no exceptions. In my thoughts, one can try to be perfect, but in the end it only matters that they are a "good enough" parent. To aim at perfection is a stressor, albeit a worthy one, but also an impossibility. We are only human, each of us, and we all screw up from time to time. And I continue to screw up from time to time -- and each time I do, I sit back and think "wow, how could I have done that better, for my kids?"

It seems to me that conscientious parenting is not a top priority for some people, though, and that bothers me. Further, it bothers me how the media and public in general decide what "standards" of parenting should apply to parents at different socio-economic levels.

Let's look at the McCann case, where an affluent couple's kid mysteriously disappeared in Portugal while on holiday; and compare that to Shannon Matthews, a girl who was held captive inside a modified piece of furniture by a person in cahoots with her mom.

Shannon Matthews kidnap 'inspired by donations to Madeleine McCann fund'

Karen Matthews arranged her own daughter Shannon's kidnap after being inspired by the huge public donations to the Madeleine McCann fund, police believe.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

this couple was given thorough coverage and supportive treatment from the media...

Madeleine McCann's death 'covered up by parents who faked kidnap', court hears

Madeleine McCann died in an accident in her family's Algarve holiday apartment and her death was covered up by her parents who then concocted a tale of kidnap, a Portuguese court was told.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

I have only learned about these two cases yesterday, while looking into media coverage and public sentiment about this type of crime -- namely, the disappearance of a child. There are articles and op-ed pieces all over the web about the disparity between how the media portrayed the two cases cited above. It mirrors the discrepancy between how this toddler's grandmother who was stung selling meth is being treated differently than the Texas judge who belt-whipped and verbally abused his daughter.

My question is, shouldn't all parents be held to a certain basic standard? No belt-whipping, no meth-dealing, etc? But it seems that some families due to "social status" are excused for atrocious behavior while others are publicly lynched.

Does that make it more clear? Conceiving a child is free.
In my mind, once it has occurred, the responsibility of parenting that child "is what it is", regardless of the parents' means or situation. I really don't have any answers. I just wanted to discuss it, in terms of some parents being given leeway, while others who have engaged in the same are taken to task, based on their social "status."

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by wildtimes

 

A 36 year old grandmother?
That is unbelievable!!!!

Well being a meth head, she probably looks like a grandmother even at 36.