Police Scenarios....Part 1

With all the anti police threads I was hoping to create something on here that can help better define the roles of a police officer and citizens. I am going to post 3 scenarios below. I would like anyone, willing , to answer how they would respond in these situations. Articulate your answers…explain why you did what you did. Multiple answers may be right. I feel that in a lot of these threads I see about the police being corrupt or using excessive force is sometimes just a lack of knowledge of the law. I am hoping that through civilized debate we can better help each other. After we get a few answers on here I will go ahead and answer how I would handle the call. There are no hidden variables and the scenarios are pretty straight forward. If people are interested in these scenarios I will keep on posting them. I welcome all responses from current or prior police officers as well.

Scenario 1) You are on patrol (in uniform and in a squad car) when you see a white male with long hair and a dirty jacket. He seems a little out of place for the neighborhood he is in, however, he has not broken any laws. You swing your squad car around to meet up with him, and he pays no attention to you. You just have a “feeling” that something about this guy isn’t right. You pull up and get out to talk with the male. You introduce yourself and ask him if you can speak with him for a minute. He replies “I don’t talk to cops” and continues walking on as if nothing happened. What can you as a police officer do?

Scenario 2) You are on patrol when you get dispatched to Taco Bell for a potential disorderly conduct in progress. You respond to speak with the manager who states that the customer bought a taco but was unhappy with it. The manager explains that she bought the taco with a credit card and was unsatisfied with the product. The manager advised that she refunded the money to the credit card but the customer wished to have the money in cash. The manager advised that they would not give cash back. The customer is upset and yelling that she wants cash back instead of the money refunded to the card. The manager states that she just wants the customer to leave the store and to never return. You look at the customer and advise her that she must leave the store. The customer says “I know my rights…and I am not going anywhere until I get my money”. What can you do as a police officer?

Scenario 3) You are on patrol while you receive a call of a young male with a hand gun who is pointing the gun at cars that drive by. You approach the area and are flagged down by a female who states that she saw Johnny a local 12 yr old male who had a black handgun that appeared to be real. The neighborhood you are in is a high crime area, but you are unfamiliar with Johnny. You began foot patrol and turn a corner to see a young male holding a hand gun that is pointed towards two other young males. The potential victims are on their knees and you can tell they appear to be in distress by their body language. The young male turns and points the black handgun towards you. What can you do as a police officer?

Don't be shy guys...I will discuss all 3 scenarios in detail with multiple things to think about after we get some responses. Thanks in advance to anyone who participates.

These are a little loaded, don't you think?

1.) Nothing. You cannot go by a hinkey feeling. You are paid to uphold the law, not to randomly suspect people of whom you don't like the look. You might ask if he's okay, and leave it at that. That's called community policing. It's a lost art.

2.) Instruct the manager to call the credit card company and ask for their cash advance charges. Advise the 'suspect' that the cash refund will include the cash advance charge. Have the manager refund in cash, and the credit card company will charge the cash advance charge. The suspect then gets to fight it out with their credit card company. That's called common sense. It's a lost art.

3.) Foot patrol? On your own? Doesn't happen. That's called community policing. It's a lost art. Any weapons call would require all sorts of back up (usually in the form of overkill with expensive SWAT teams and DHS officers). That's called common sense. It's a lost art.

First, I'd like to say I grew up in a small town in Maine and knew most of the Police Force by their first names.
Second, As I knew them fairly well, I would ask them all sorts of questions about being a police officer, and so my responses are based on what I learned from them.
Scenario 1:
There's really nothing you can do as an officer in that situation. Looking shady doesn't qualify for an arrest or search (In my opinion, at least). The most I could see an honest cop doing is staying in the area for a little bit, kinda tailing him f I still had 'that' feeling. If nothing happens in the hour or so that I'd follow him, then I would go about my patrol. Although I would write down his description.
Scenario 2:
As the Taco Bell is private property the Manager/ Owner can request that the police remove unwanted persons from the location. So, if the Manager/Owner did request this directly to the officer and then the officer then attempts to peacibly remove the person, and it fails the person can be arrested on trespassing. Personally, as a police officer I would ask the Manager/Owner to show me the refund reciept, and if produced, show it to the person telling them that their money has been refunded. If they were still not complying at this point then I would arrest them for trespassing.
Scenario 3:
Most police in this situation are trained to draw thier weapon.
I would do the same, but I would address the youth. Direct him to lay the weapon down and comply with my further directions. IF he did not, then according to my (their) training I would neutralize him. (This would take place after radioed it in.)

Scene 1 - Beat down long haired hippie with baton until he bleeds from both ears and tell him to stay on his side of the tracks, aka the trailer park.

Scene 2 - Mace Taco Bell customer in the face, hog tie her and drag to squad car under arrest for Disturbing the peace

Scene 3 - Shoot kid in the face with handgun, shoot other two people on knees also as they are probably ghetto scum too. Head to donut shop for a glazed and cup of joe, extra sugar.

reply to post by Badgered1


I agree to your response to #1.
But in #2s case usually the Manager is past such options (as they can take a long time to resolve.)
And as the Manager/Owner they have the right to deny someone access to their business.
The money problem is not really why you were called there, it's the trespassing. Dealing with the money issue would be a curtesy.
And I think you missed #3 point, I think the OP was trying to imply you were out and about (community policing, like you said a dead art), and you happened across this situation. Sometimes you don't have the opportunity to call for backup before you walk into a situation.

situation 1 : would stop and talk briefly with the individual to see if possibly they were lost - may have been going to visit friends/relatives who are better off not unlikely in todays economy. Beyond that let the individual go on their way as they've broken no laws along with writing up note on individual in event of report of a crime coming in later.

Situation 2 : run background check on customer suspecting possible credit card fraud. Also observe to see if they're under influence of drugs/alcohol. Should the check come up clean and if they're not under the influence send them on their way. Should they persist in making a scene run them in for disorderly public conduct.

Situation 3 : approach with caution weapon ready. Identify self order individual to drop weapon. If individual fails to comply and turns weapon in my direction would fire.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


1. Ask to see his ID and if he refuses arrest him for resisting. Other than that, not much can be done in this scenario.

2. Tell the customer that this is a civil not criminal matter, and that’s how it has to be handled. Police don’t get involved in civil matters. If the manager asks him to leave and he won’t, arrest him for trespassing.

3. Shoot him. If the LEO believes the gun is real, he has met the legal threshold for deadly force.

Thanks for the answers guys...glad some of you took an interest.

Here are my responses...feel free to ask questions about them if you like.

Scenario 1) What that stop would be is called a field interview. Field interviews are nothing more than a police officer requesting an interaction with a civilian for whatever reason...usually cause someone is suspicious. In this scenario the officer can do nothing but let the subject continue on his way. He has no "reasonable suspicion" that he has carried out a crime or is about to. In this situation I would simply walk away and maybe do some extra patrol of the area. Now if he fit the description of a suspect that just stole something at a nearby store...I would have to stop and let me identify him and under certain circumstances be detained for interviewing. But we had none of the above...so he may go on his way.

Scenario 2) This is actually a civil issue as far as the money goes. That is between the business and customer. They claimed they refunded her money. She would have to have a civil case otherwise. Now if an officer tells her to leave and she does not that is immediate probably cause for an arrest of criminal trespass. Most officers would take the time to gently talk them out of the building instead of initiating an arrest, but the fact is...they have a business to run and if the business wants them out...they have to leave. There are 2 charges if they don't leave. One is criminal trespass and the other could have been disorderly conduct because of their alarming and disturbing behavior to other customers (only if they wished to pursue charges). If the officer then asks you to turn around to put your hands behind your back and you don't at that point you are getting really close to obstructing a police officer. See how something that seems so simple can add up to 3 charges in an instant? All because the customer thought they had the right. You would be amazed at how many times a scenario like this happens...and it is unfortunate because its was a confusion of a civil law and criminal law.

Scenario 3) I want to pose two ending results. One is the officer shoots the 12 yr old boy and we find out it was a fake gun. Two the officer does not shoot the boy and the boy turns and shoots one of the victim kids in the head. Can you see how no matter what happens a large amount of people would be horrified and upset. In the situation if I reasonably believed that the 12 yr boy was going to harm those kids with deadly force or cause great bodily harm..i would indeed shoot the boy...and I would not have to give a warning either. If we found out the gun was fake...that is something Id have to live with...but in this day and age..they make airsoft guns look identical to real weapons and the police have no way of knowing.

As a disclaimer I would like to say this is the way I have been trained in the state I work in and this is how I would respond. I am unsure of every departments use of force, and of each state's laws or how each state's or district attorney would wish to proceed in their jurisdiction.

Originally posted by Badgered1
These are a little loaded, don't you think?

1.) Nothing. You cannot go by a hinkey feeling. You are paid to uphold the law, not to randomly suspect people of whom you don't like the look. You might ask if he's okay, and leave it at that. That's called community policing. It's a lost art.

2.) Instruct the manager to call the credit card company and ask for their cash advance charges. Advise the 'suspect' that the cash refund will include the cash advance charge. Have the manager refund in cash, and the credit card company will charge the cash advance charge. The suspect then gets to fight it out with their credit card company. That's called common sense. It's a lost art.

3.) Foot patrol? On your own? Doesn't happen. That's called community policing. It's a lost art. Any weapons call would require all sorts of back up (usually in the form of overkill with expensive SWAT teams and DHS officers). That's called common sense. It's a lost art.

How do you mean loaded?

And as for foot patrol goes...if i heard a call of someone with a gun more than one officer would respond...thing is we may be alone moving carefully through the area..if you turn a corner to see the above scenario..that is just your luck..i can't always have a back up...and it wasn't community policing it was a response to a gun call. If you read up on columbine there were officers that waited for quite some time while kids were dying...this is cause back then the tactic was to secure a perimeter and wait for swat...nowadays officers are told to respond immediately if there is an active threat.

And as for community policing being a lost art...you are probably right...the gap between civilians and cops seems to be growing in my opinion...and in my own little weird way thats what im hoping these posts will help do is bridge some of that gap.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


quite interesting actually.. not been in america since 80 and am a physician so used common sense and what remember of the laws there when replying on the situations..though realise its much different in america these days.

In many parts of asia police still walk beats and do community policing have had tea with several over the years and found them helpful on the extremely rare occasion that needed them. Even in china find them to be polite and professional.

Originally posted by Expat888
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

quite interesting actually.. not been in america since 80 and am a physician so used common sense and what remember of the laws there when replying on the situations..though realise its much different in america these days.

In many parts of asia police still walk beats and do community policing have had tea with several over the years and found them helpful on the extremely rare occasion that needed them. Even in china find them to be polite and professional.

I have traveled a bit myself...mostly Europe and the Middle East...I had absolutely no issues whatsoever and found them to be helpful however my interactions were very mild. I've worked with police in both areas and found them to be similar to police here.

I don't want to draw the line that cops are no longer community oriented...I just think it is part of the times. If you think about it....now that everyone has cell phones...we get many more calls for service because you have the police at your fingertips. Unfortunately we get a lot of calls that maybe aren't really for police, but we have to respond anyway because its a courtesy for the public. For example some of you may have heard of the story where a woman called 911 because they got her order wrong at Mc Donalds? They are usually not that extreme but id say I we receive quite a few calls that really should go to a different agency like animal control, or a carpenter, or a lawyer...etc.

And by the way your answers were good!

Originally posted by PosterNutbag
Scene 1 - Beat down long haired hippie with baton until he bleeds from both ears and tell him to stay on his side of the tracks, aka the trailer park.

Scene 2 - Mace Taco Bell customer in the face, hog tie her and drag to squad car under arrest for Disturbing the peace

Scene 3 - Shoot kid in the face with handgun, shoot other two people on knees also as they are probably ghetto scum too. Head to donut shop for a glazed and cup of joe, extra sugar.

:shk: 's a damned good thing that the overall vast majority of law enforcement and citizens Alike aren't of that ilk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) nothing. to the best of your knowledge they haven't broken any law, aren't harassing nor intimidating or posing a threat to others, just minding their own business. going about their way.
[shift paperwork -wise: perhaps note the 'stop' slash 'field interview' with details regarding dress/attire, demeanor or other aspects which drew your attention to them/ the situation in the first place]

2) [as previously mentioned above] request that the manager present proof of the credit card purchase / refund to the customer. explain to said customer that it is common practice to refund credit card purchases to the card/account itself, and not in cash ... that they need to address any further queries or concerns with either their CC co. or the establishment's corporate offices.
[if they can't abide by the same, and the manager insists they vacate the premises, inform that they must oblige ... else they're subject to arrest ... quite simple]

3) tough call on that one, and one which would likely have to be made in the blink of an eye at the individual officer's discretion at the time.
[one which should be based upon their prior training, observations and overall 'sense' of 'threat' and/or 'intent' - yeah. that's a hard one .... all in the blink of an eye]

The last one's a sticky wicket, so to speak. Nowadays you have air softs [play 'guns'] which look identical to assault rifles, glocks, etc ... and as is often the case kids/folks will even go as far as to color over, paint or modify the barrel tip, stock, sights, etc .... anything designed to Make Obvious the non-lethal/toy aspect.

Me,
I'd instruct them to put down their 'weapon'. If they don't, and are still brandishing it in a threatening manner, center of mass.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

S1
then do not got to West valley city UT for you will be thrown to the ground, hand cuffed and taking in for further question, charged with loitering
S 2
you will be arrested and charge with resting arrest and disorderly conduit disturbing the peace
S3
cop shoots kid with gun, 2 others arrested for possible drug procession. In all 3 cases it is your word and theirs, they have no reason to lie or make up charges

reply to post by 12m8keall2c


Excellent response! Yes the thing about scenario 3 is there are quite a few like that..not just with deadly force but even just detaining someone....it is why there are constantly cases going to the supreme court...I hate the fact that I could do everything right but still spend 2 years in court only to find out that the law needs to be adjusted.

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

S1
then do not got to West valley city UT for you will be thrown to the ground, hand cuffed and taking in for further question, charged with loitering
S 2
you will be arrested and charge with resting arrest and disorderly conduit disturbing the peace
S3
cop shoots kid with gun, 2 others arrested for possible drug procession. In all 3 cases it is your word and theirs, they have no reason to lie or make up charges

Haha well technically loitering would be enough to detain you if its lets say a city violation...loitering is pretty lame in general, but it does exist.

And you actually bring up a great point in S3.....I have had this scenario happen..which maybe ill add in my next segment if enough people play.....A drunk 19 year old come into the police department to file a report that some guys "jumped" him. Should the 19 year old get a citation for drinking under age even though he is coming in as a victim? That is another grey area and there is some debate amongst officers and administrators as to how to handle it.

Thx for participating mate...even though you sound a little bitter haha......

reply to post by cosmicexplorer
no not bitter just live in the real world and not to far from the real city with real cops that do just as i said look it up WVC pd oh i did it for ya www.wvc-ut.gov...

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

no not bitter just live in the real world and not to far from the real city with real cops that do just as i said look it up WVC pd oh i did it for ya www.wvc-ut.gov...

edit on 2-11-2011 by bekod because: editting

so you are saying all cops are like this? And that those are the 'real' cops....come on man...the real world isn't a group of cops abusing people...there are a few bad ones...i always say its 2% ...2% of teachers, bankers, cops, unemployed etc...are bad....for easy estimation lets say there are 1 million cops...that is ....20k bad cops....which would mean...400 corrupt cops per state...which would mean....maybe 4 corrupt cops per county....that is just the nature of life....so the world focuses on the 2%. The other 98% are doing all right.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer
er no just that this one pd, in one city,that is.
I think the force is 35 member strong?; and all are like that, some more so, than others.
When one might just put the cuffs on you, the other will throw you to the ground.
Then there is the one that will Taz you, cuff you, and if your down, will pick you up and throw you down again, there was a news story about how brutal the WVPD was and that all the cops in the city's force had been fired from other PDs for being to violent LA, Denver, AZ, TX and NV . I will see if i can find it, some have been fired but they were replaced by ones just as bad here is just one story of many of how out of control they can be www.sltrib.com... from the link

First published Jul 18 2011 12:17PM
Updated Jul 18, 2011 11:41PM

The Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office has ruled a May 24 shooting by a West Valley City police officer — who fired at and missed a fleeing driver — was not justified.

to me there like bees or wasps you leave them alone, they leave you alone. just give them no reason to mess with you, if they do, have ACLU and your lawyer on speed dial.

reply to post by bekod


Sorry to hear its like that...I know some of the old timers talk about a "good ol boy" system...they just hired you because you were their buddies son and stuff like that...which if you have bad people running it...it would never change....kind of politics haha. Anyway thanks for the link and your input.