Society, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing

reply to post by Bhadhidar

Rockpuck, I have always respected your comprehension of the various financial issues that appear on these boards. Truth to tell, many have been the times that seeing your name associated with a thread has been the deciding factor in my decision to read said thread or not.

Thanks

As I see it, one of the biggest problems our society faces is that we demonize those who live off (government) handouts (whether they do so by choice or by circumstance; we do not differentiate) and we Glorify the greedy.

Half the population demonizes those living off the government .. not surprising.. it's usually the half paying for them. Just look at this thread thus far, some agree, we make it to easy for the poorest people to leach the system. Others determine my unwillingness to support vagrancy to be inhumane. When I sat in classes in college nothing got me angrier than idiots complaining how their financial aid was a week late so they couldn't pay their cell phone bill or make rent. But me, because my parents had jobs and I was far to white for financial aid, had to work two jobs to pay the full price of tuition and my own living expenses. Is that what we call "fair"? no .. in my eyes it's rewarding laziness. I know there are people that really need it, and the sad thing is I'd love to see those people taken care of .. but it's to abused, to widespread used, the people who truly need and deserve it are the minority.

In September 2009, around 4 million Americans were served by a state cash-assistance or welfare program, more than 37 million received federal food stamps and about 9.1 million received unemployment benefits. If treated as exclusive numbers, there would be a total of 50.1 million Americans who received federal aid in September 2009. This data is based on a report published in USA today in January 2010.

www.politicsdaily.com...
www.marketwatch.com...

Those stats right there are absolutely insane.. If you give one person food stamps, everyone should get food stamps. That's fair in my eyes. Stupid too, but there you are. And that doesn't even include the number of private organizations that provide assistance which I would gather is even larger than the Governments spending. And I have no issues at all who uses a charity, because it's peoples choices donate or not.
givinginstitute.wordpress.com...
We give away on average $250-300 billion each year for various causes .. the wealthy giving much of that.

We (sometimes) secretly (sometimes, not) envy the Rich to the point of going to virtually any self-degrading extreme to become One of Them!

True. Not all of us, but many.. and so what, it's America, if you want to make your attempt at wealth and fame who am I to stop you?

Can anyone argue that the current poularity of so-called "Reality TV" shows is not the direct result of our quest to become "Famous" for something; and thus gain an opportunity to stretch our 15 minutes of fame into a lifetime of riches?

I always thought of it as the gauge of American stupidity personally. I don't hold our nations intelligence in high regard.

But you do point out the crux of one of our many problems.. Society needs fixing, but the idea on how to fix it will cripple us. Making it unfixable. Personally, in my eyes, personal responsibility and awareness would be a good place to start.

reply to post by 12m8keall2c

you don't save a dying tree by lopping off branches and the like. you start at the root - promote new growth.

you do if that tree is dying of infectious disease, much like our country. Not to say new growth shouldn't coincide, but sometimes the removal of a limb is a necessity.

"Society, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing" goes with...
"Pixies, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing"
"Dragons, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing"
"Bigfoot, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing" and, of course...
"Unicorns, Not Wall Street Needs Fixing"

Something CANNOT be fixed if it does NOT exist.

This is a truly DUMB THREAD.

reply to post by sceptredisle


...So .. what your saying is?

Society doesn't exist?

reply to post by Rockpuck


You're not going to get a return to "good morals and ethics" if you say "Well, you're rich, so you don't have to have morals or ethics."

reply to post by Rockpuck


Objectivist standby. Basic theory is that there is no society, rather just a bunch of is9lated individuals whose single concern should be themselves. Read such works as "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead," to get a little view into the way thi particular religion works.

(Spoiler: it doesn't)

reply to post by Rockpuck


Well, DUH!

Of course Society does not exist. It is no different to "luck:". It is no different to believing in fairies, pixies or bigfoot, and it ijust a redundant religious belief exists only in the minds of seriously deluded people.

reply to post by Rockpuck


if you hate the gov't programs so much, well, what are you doing to keep the people off the dole??

if you are a business owner, do you pay enough for your employees to support themselves and their families??
do you require a doctors note when they are out sick?? are you willing to work with them if they don't have a phone and can't call in when they are sick?

if you own a house that you rent out, do you charge more in rent than the people wanting the apartment can afford to give you, and thus, well, send them to hud for a voucher???
oh, and speaking of that rented house, have you used gov't tax credits to install new energy efficient gas heaters, or weatherized the place, ect.....just to turn around and increase that rent afterwards, since the utilities are now cheaper for the tennet??

if you are a doctor, have you ever shirked the responsibility to one of your patients simply because you knew he had no insurance and the bill probably wouldn't have been paid?? do you over do it with those on medicaid or have insurance??
and speaking of doctors, the grossest misuse of taxpayers dollars comes from that sector, where doctors have been know to build themselves a network, one finds some poor idiot on medicaid, plots with them they go to a doctor, and plots some more, and well, the poor idiot (note, I ain't calling him an idiot because he's on medicaid, I am calling him an idiot because of what he's about to do)!!!, agrees to have some unnecessary operation done! the the bill to medicaid is exagerated just a tad, sometimes a pretty big tad, and well, the three will split the profits in the end!!!

do you expect to get the highest price for your goods and services as you can, do you expect a college education for a job that really just requires a little bit of time to train the person to do??

have you ever heard of any ceo or upper management person decide to pass up that hundred thousand to a million dollar bonus and tell them to spread the wealth around to the lower paid employees in the form a wage increases???

we are the pions, the only way true, meaningful change is gonna come from us is through what you are seeing in the tea party and the occupy movement, or possibly revoult!!! when it comes to big economic changes, well, it's the big fishies that cause the movements there!!! it's not like we can just decide that oh, my paycheck cover that much in rent, guess I'll just have to move my family under the bridge till a better paying job happens to drop into my lap!!! so things are necessary for life, and if the paycheck doesn't cover the expense of those, well, one way or another, the people are gonna find a way to get the money they need to cover them...
maybe you would rather that they rob your home, or sell your kids some drugs instead????

Then you ask yourself why is society morally bankrupt? And I think the answer is in the economic system. As soon as we're born we're bombarded with the importance of material ownership and the desire of money is drilled deep into our developing brains.
The earliest form of peer pressure and prejudice I can remember was in the form of classism. There was always that poor kid in school who everyone would make fun of and was widely acceptable to make fun of because he was from a poor family.
If people are driven by the desire for money then it is no wonder people do the things they do. You want that money and to hell with everyone else, and who can blame them?
I'm a firm believer that if money was taken out of society then the world would be a better place.
Are we so stupid that we need money waved in our faces in order for us just to get out of bed in the morning?
We can all become scientists, teachers, artists, musicians, inventors, astronauts etc. whatever you want because that is our dream, desire and goal in life, and there would be no money restrictions.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I don't know about that. Seems a little disingenuous and not quite right to me to blame all of society for the actions of what amounts to be a few people bending the rules, bribing stealing and even making new rules. It is a little like blaming this individual for his back pain.

Op, you fail to realize these wealthy individuals-corporations are the same nobile families that have been in charge for over 2 centuries or longer. only a ignorant individual would have the audasity to think that "ye who controls the money-gold does not control the society." Thus, who controls the money also sets policies in that social nation-state, and you get what we see past and present, fief, servitute, and pheasant.

Is there a higher entity on this planet that does not have money, but holds controlling interest to your views op

If not, then yes it is the elites-wall street setting agenda that needs to be changed not our society

If you did not grasp my synopsis I will break it down in laymans terms: Money= power=legislation=social norms for the pheasants

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

 

I believe we should encourage people who live off the government to not do so. There may not be something wrong with someone "falling on hard times" and using the Government as a temporary crutch .. there is, imo, a major problem with literally living off the government with no intention to change your lifestyle. Yes, I think we as a society should consider living off the government to be "wrong", we should always encourage self betterment, not self defeat! I'd rather give the poor free education or trade training than food stamps, government housing and medicaid.

I think you got it wrong. It is not wrong to live off the government if you have no other choice. It is wrong to not attempt to get off if you are able. Some just aren't able due to disabilities. Others would like to, but are unable to find a job that will support their families.

I agree that society needs revamping. I think we need to revamp to ensure their is gainful employment to anyone that wants to work. At that point we can start attacking those on welfare.

As far as attacking the rich, what else is there left to do? They already have more money than officially exists in the world. The only way the lower classes can bring themselves up is to obtain some of that money. How else is it going to work? Are the rich going to give willingly so that the lower and middle classes can do better? I don't see it happening if it means their wealth decreases. Thus what you propose makes it a certainty that the classes will continue to get further apart. You can wish that what you want is possible, but it is mathematically impossible since we can't create new money without an equal amount of debt.

While I must comment that social revamping is anything but simple, I must say that I do share your sentiments, OP.

I think you're discounting some of the ideals of the Tea Party a bit too quickly though (I mean their founding ideals, not them, considering they got absorbed into the neocons for the most part). The thing about these bankers were smart enough to know the likely outcome of those horrendous economic decisions, but they proceeded anyway because they knew they wouldn't be allowed to fail (all reward, no risk - contrary to free market rules). If the government had a policy primarily based on economic non-intervention, do you think they would have taken the chance to lose trillions? Of course not. Ruining the economy that made them all of that money is simply irrational. They've simply rigged the system so that no matter what they do, they personally take on no real risk, and it gets redistributed to the rest of us.

That's the funny and counter-intuitive thing about economics: free markets are actually bad for these monopolistic, government-backed corporations and banks, whose sole goal is to eliminate competition and risk.

Food for thought.

So who decides what are "obscene" profits, OP? That's my problem here.

I agree that businesses should not be allowed to engage in illegal activity.

I agree that government should not use taxpayer money to bail out businesses.

I do NOT agree that anyone can judge what profits are "obscene" and which are "justified".

reply to post by Rockpuck



Look OP your absolutely right! I am of a mind where we have watered down the world so much we have too many people who really should have gone the way of any other animal in an ecosystem. Yes that's right I said animal. Don't lose sight we are animals just like the squirrels and birds etc... What happens when poor little squirrel can't find a nut and can't make a nest for himself? Does the squirrel authority give this poor little squirrel some nuts and a nest? No the damn squirrel survives or dies depending upon it's own work ethic. We have totally lost that.
I am going to make a statement which I know is very unpopular but it is so true you cannot deny it. The weak need to perish! Can't fend for yourself? too bad! Your not right in the head? Too bad! Your disabled and cannot provide for yourself? Too bad! I would line up all the wastes of zygote and turn them into fertilizer! Sorry but we are propping up too many weaklings in this world who by all rights shouldn't be ENABLED by the systems and family.
I say we all have expiration dates and once we start taking more than we are giving we are past the expiration date. Simple, heartless, and the web of life if not messed with by human beings who are playing god for lack of a better phrase.
I work as much as I can, I feel like I have to give 100% every day to ensure my survival and all that is bled off for those who choose not too or simply cannot work for themselves is living off the sweat from MY brow. I didn't take anything from them but they damn sure make certain to get something from me and every other person who busts their a*$ day in and day out. Sorry I have digressed into a rant! S+F OP!

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
So are you saying that we should demonize those who have fallen on hard times and have to live off the government because they can't find a job just like people who lie and cheat and steal and screw everybody else in the country over?

No.

I'm in the 43% who don't wind up paying federal taxes (it's total b.s. that I don't pay taxes at all as has been explained to you people ad-nauseum), and I don't take a dime of government welfare.

Nobody is stopping you from writing a check to the Treasury, if you think that's where it is spent best.

Reminds me of Soros on the news saying "I pay less than my secretary"

Make the check payable to the U.S. Treasury.

A lot of people on the government dime have jobs and need some extra help. More and more these days, people who have paid into the system their entire lives have to take advantage of those safety nets.

I wish people would take some responsibility.

I see more people "riding the system", than I see just squeezing by with the help they get.

If you're on gov assistance, live within your means.

Yes, there are people who take advantage of it, but to make sweeping generalizations is really quite ignorant of what's actually going on in the world.

Ignorant? HA! You should really take a look around.

"You people", indeed.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

Gene Isenberg, former chief executive officer of Nabors Industries Ltd., is slated to receive $100 million in cash after making way for a new CEO at the world’s largest land-drilling contractor.

www.businessweek.com...

I think this would qualify as excessive in most people's opinion!!!

oh, yes, oil and gas!!! what every person needs to live in our society...
the stuff that fuels our factories, that keeps our school buses running, that warms just about every home and business in the country!!!

and it's one of those things that if the people can't afford to buy it, well, the gov't might step in and buy it for you!!! to heat your home, to get you to your workplace, or just to the doctor!!!!

if you read far enough it states that his retirement will "save" the company $25 million a year!! so, well, I imagine this guy has plenty of money in his account already, or other assets!!

think this guy will have the moral integrity to look at his world, at all those people who's only retirement outside of social security is their small little ira fund, see the schools struggling with their budgets, or recognize all those businesses that are barely keeping themselves afloat...and well, tell the company to keep the money, use it to maybe reduce the price at the pump, or at least hand it out in dividends to those ira holders???

na......he'll pocket the cash, hire himself a minimum wage maid and cook, and gripe about half the population not pay taxes!! oh, wait a minute, the company ... the company is located in bermuda, so well, it's probably managed to shelter most of it's earnings from uncle sam anyways...this guy should be quite familiar with not paying taxes, or paying little tax!!!!

Hi folks,

Just out of curiousity:

How many people think that paying for the IRAQ war was a fair thing? And how many of those of you who earn money and are still paying, think that some of the elite made/making a killing (oil fields)?

How many of you would rather pave the way for these elite, who the weak should beg for jobs/means to pay for their living?

How many of you are aware that many of these people without jobs weren't always so: That they were potentially at one point in time or another, earning a hard-earned living?

How many of you are also aware that banks lend out money that doesn't exist, and makes interest on it - and this is your US dollars? Wouldn't you like to take your money, multiply it by ten (in a 10% fractional reserve system like the US in 2006) and loan it for interest? As an example, I have a $150K mortgage at 6% per annum, I pay $9K in interest the first year. I have 100K put down on my home. If I were to do what the banks did with my savings instead of buying a home - I would loan (with the fractional reserve at 10%) $1million and make approximately $9K * 6 = 54K (more actually, since 9*150K = 900K) approx per annum. I don't have to work another day of my life, once I've gotten 100K.

How many of you don't think that this is corporate welfare? It is simply the privilege of loaning out your savings dollars multiplied by a factor of "X", back to you to earn unthinkable profits. Why can't I/you do this? It is easy enough to set up a spreadsheet to calculate the amounts.

I also don't understand how there are people who rationalize: "let the weak die". If the weak becomes a statistic big enough to include you, will you not feel cheated?

reply to post by sensibleSenseless


every year, a form is given to me at work trying to get me to open an account to put a little extra money into for christmas.....the percent of interest on this thing is a fraction of one percent. after giving my money to someone to hold onto all year, in the end I only would end up with a few bucks extra!!! needless to say, having my money on hand, with the power to decide it's fate myself is worth more than a few bucks, so I pass it up!!!
saving isn't financially worthwhile in this country, what the banks pay in interest is next to meaningless unless you have an really nice sum of money in the bank...it's more worthwhile to go play on wall street!!!

and yet, these same banks that are now wanting to charge you more for holding your money than they are willing to give you in interest probably, well, they are playing the game you just described, plus taking taxpayer money as bailouts, ect......

and they wonder why people don't "save"...
well, I save, but my money isn't sitting in any banks for them to multiply ten times over and create a mess that we the lowly taxpayer has to pay off!!!

reply to post by dawnstar


Depends on the type of savings account and the balance. Usually if you have 50k+ in an account you earn something like 500% more than the interest rate on a "no minimum balance account"

Which is just another way that inflation helps those that have no money .. which is ass backwards if you ask me.