F-88 vs. M4

I have been wondering for a while now about the differences between the bullpup design of the F-88 Styr and the full barrel length of the M4.

I absolutely love the F-88s design and function, the idea of having a small sized rifle while keeping a full length barrel.

Some specs:

Weight:
Aug 417: 7.96 lbs
Aug 508: 8.38 lbs
Aug HBAR: 10.78 lbs

Mag empty 30 rounds .27 lbs

Length

16 in barrel- 27 Inches
20 in barrel- 31 Inches
24 in barrel -35.5 Inches

Mechanical Features-
Rifling- 1-9" or 1-7"

Muzzle velocity is 980 M/x or 3215 FPS.
Circle rate of fire automatic- 680-850 RPM
Semi- auto fire approx - 150 rounds / min theoretical.



Steyr AUG is one of the most advanced and reliable rifles in the world. Australian Army was the first major nation to adopt AUG as its main infantry rifle. When the initial trials began, many people were sceptical about performance of this "plastic" rifle. The Steyr , which is manufactured locally in Australia under a licence name F-88 is made of polymers which resemble steel in their durability.

The testing which was conducted on the AUG actually cost nearly as much as developing the rifle itself! It was the first "tourture-testing" of its kind. During this , the rifles were fired underwater, immersed in mud for days and then fired, put in ovens for days at a time and then fired , a Unimog was driven over one F-88 30 times before anything snapped and even than the rifle was able to fire, metal rods were hammered into the barrel and than the guns were fired.

Finally the Steyr AUG was given to the hardest climate on earth - Australian outback - even there the rifles performed flawlessly. This reliability can probably only be matched by the AK or in any case very few weapons.

There has been several myths about Steyrs "melting" during firing - these are largely myths. The only case which I am aware of a Steyr actually melting was in 1995 in Singleton.

It occurred during a battalion firing exercise. After the shoot was over , one of the firing range safety officers collected all spare ammunition he could find - 25 magazines in all. He fired them one after the other on full-automatic. Needless to say the gun jammed due to the barrel expanding from all the heat generated and part of the polymer stock melted. It was than estimated that the rifle heated up to 500 degrees Celsius - conventional rifles would jam long before that. Other than in the extreme case stated above , the F-88 is not prone to "just melt".

An interesting features of F-88 are the integrated scope and the fire selection mechanism. The scope is factory set and embedded into the carrying handle - it magnifies 2.5X and has an aiming circle instead of the standard cross-hairs. This helps to shoot with both eyes open and aids in instinctive shooting.

F-88 has no actual selector switch. Safety is arranged by a button in the side of the gun but the selector itself is integrated into the trigger group. When the trigger is depressed half-way single shots are fired. When the trigger is pressed all the way back full-automatic shots are fired. This also aids in instinctive shooting - if a soldier is suddenly confronted by an enemy at close range , he is more likely to squeeze the trigger all the way back, while if the enemy is further away , deliberate aimed shots can be fired. This is a potentially life-saving device.


Here is a picture of the whole Steyr family:



On the other hand I have never used or even touched an M4, how well is it balanced? Anyone who has experience with the M4 care to reply and help me here?

If the Steyr has reliability that can match that of the AK thats pretty amazing. I have mostly had experience with the civilian version of the M-4 the AR-15. I thought it was a well balanced gun and had no problems with it. Im a AK man at heart though and own more then a few versions and swear by them. At least till I can get my hands on a AN-94

I have never fired a military Steyr or any version of it, If they even have a civilain version so I dont really have much info to say about it. What type of round does the normal version fire a .223?

Also whats with the AUG 9mm, why not just use a MP-5 for that role instead of making a 9mm version? The MP-5 is the best SMG IMHO

[edit on 30-8-2004 by ShadowXIX]

I have no idea as to the reason they made a 9mm version. I would really prefer a MP-5 when it comes to 9mm assult.

There are a efw vendors about heres a link to one:

www.steyr-aug.com...
^ I'm not sure if he sells to general public or which country he is based, but have a go.

How does the AR-15 match up?

The Australian Government has had major problems with the steyr, so much so that 1 regiment of paratroopers replaced their steyr's with the M-4. In Timor, their were 60 accidental discharges, due to te design and materials of the weapon.

60 NDs (negligent discharges)? Jeez thats pretty bad, any further info on how these NDs occured? What particular part of the design caused the discharges?

ShadowXIX:

Sorry, I have you a link to accesories, here's a few more links to actual sales and auctions. Note, the civie model only fired semi-auto (as far as I know):

Auction

Arms Bay (Currently offline for an overhaul of its site design.

ATAC Guns (these guys sometimes stock AUGs.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Ezekial
60 NDs (negligent discharges)? Jeez thats pretty bad, any further info on how these NDs occured? What particular part of the design caused the discharges?

ShadowXIX:

Sorry, I gave you a link to accesories, here's a few more links to actual sales and auctions. Note, the civie model only fired semi-auto (as far as I know):

Auction

Arms Bay (Currently offline for an overhaul of its site design.

ATAC Guns (these guys sometimes stock AUGs.

Hope this helps.



[edit on 31-8-2004 by Ezekial]

yeah it's one of the major flaws in such a great and reliable weapon. I also believe they got the m-4 due to the fact of such a wide range of accessories that was better suited for special forces.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by drfunk
yeah it's one of the major flaws in such a great and reliable weapon. I also believe they got the m-4 due to the fact of such a wide range of accessories that was better suited for special forces.

thanks,
drfunk

Yeah, you are right about the special forces changing their weapons:
Australian Defender - PDF

Ezekial Thanks for the links to the Steyr site I dont think I have ever seen one for sale. They are pretty cool looking guns alittle high at $4,000 for what I spend on most of my rifles.

My AR15 is a Bushmaster its a good gun I like it. Never had any problems with it but I have never rolled around in the dirt with it and tried to use it, My opinion might change if I did. I always clean it and take good care of it if you do that it wont give you any problems.

Bushmaster makes a bullpup version of the AR-15 I think its the only non-banned, American-made Bullpup on the market. Im thinking of getting one I like the concept behind the Bullpup design but have never owned one. This might be my poor mans Steyr

Cool picks of the special forces guys Ezekial there using mp-5s nine out of ten special forces teams can't be wrong
www.bushmaster.com...


[edit on 31-8-2004 by ShadowXIX]

As I am no longer in the Defence Force (Air Force, but I used the F88 regularly) I am finding it tough with the current gun laws, and I am quite lazy when it comes to attaining a High Class licence (whatever it's called - didn't need a Firearms licence for DF ).

AUG User Manual - they have a user manual for the F88.

$4000 is extremely expensive, I had haerd a while ago from a rather shifty friend that they are sometimes sold for $1500 - $2500 here is Oz. I don't trust him of where they come from.

Heres an interesting peice of trivia/news:
Every now and then a number of Biker clubs try a raid of Kapooka Recruit Training Wing for some reason, probably to steal rifles, this is the stupidest thing one can do. Think, a base that has 4 Companies, each with 3 Platoons, each platoon has roughly 25-30 soldiers. There are more than enough firepower handy that each soldier can have one F88 per hand. It's ludacris. a mate of mine was there training recruits a while ago when this happened - they didn't get past the gate guards (there is a little 'town' of staff housing outside the gates, and all of these service men have their own private weapons too, I don't know who got the Bikers, but if they got in they would have to get through the Gate, the Jail, then over a hill and then be fa ed by 4 Companies of eager young recruits. Hmm, I really went out on some weird tanget there, nevermind.

Originally posted by Ezekial

Heres an interesting peice of trivia/news:
Every now and then a number of Biker clubs try a raid of Kapooka Recruit Training Wing for some reason, probably to steal rifles, this is the stupidest thing one can do. Think, a base that has 4 Companies, each with 3 Platoons, each platoon has roughly 25-30 soldiers. There are more than enough firepower handy that each soldier can have one F88 per hand. It's ludacris. a mate of mine was there training recruits a while ago when this happened - they didn't get past the gate guards (there is a little 'town' of staff housing outside the gates, and all of these service men have their own private weapons too, I don't know who got the Bikers, but if they got in they would have to get through the Gate, the Jail, then over a hill and then be fa ed by 4 Companies of eager young recruits. Hmm, I really went out on some weird tanget there, nevermind.

Are you serious ? This would make front page news if it happened, not to mention that the bikies involved would probably be labelled terrorists and subject to those laws.
Attacking a governemnt complex = terrorism.

I heard that certain soldiers would sell a weapon here and there like up in the NT, but as far as an attack to raid an amoury

Like I said this is a second hand story from a friend. I don't fully believe him, but it wouldnt surprise me what these bikers would try.

Having handled both, I prefer the AR-15 variants, not necessarily the M-4. They are more modular, can be adapted to multiple calibers and configurations easier (XM-177, M-4, Mk 11 Mod 0 & 1 SPR, HBAR, Shrike, etc...)

It is easier for lefties (like me) to fire the AR-15 variants, the bullpup design of the Steyr means a special bolt is needed to keep from getting your face showered with hot brass.

The new variations of AR like the recon rifle and SPR, especially in the new 6.8mm version, are some pretty sweet weapons.

Yeah, the ejecting port is a bit of an issue.

Even for right handed people like me. If you do what you are told and 'roll your cheek' onto the weapon when looking through the scope sometimes your skin is CERY close toe the EP and i've had a few hot-air scaldings in the past.

I also like the AUG because of it's ease when it comes to stripping. Cleaning is a b!tch though, as I have heard is the same with the M4. The gas port gets built up with 'gunk' and takes a steel brush to clean.

I really like the modular design of the AUG.

Another nice thing is the lack of a 'Rock and Roll' box when choosing between Auto and Semi-Automatic fire. It's all down to finger pressure on the trigger.

Based on my extensive research into the Steyr AUG (playing counter-strike), I find both the recoil and the accuracy of the rifle very effective in disposing of Arctic Avengers.

Phayce, I was just waiting for someone to bring up CS.

I read some where that the M-4 is also less likely to seize up in highly humid conditions. Which is the reason why Singapore or another country in that region (I forget) swapped the Steyr AUG for the M-4.

Wait till we see bullpup version M4 like in killaone2

reply to post by phayce


Nah in CS the M4 is better. But seriously, I've only fired the F-88 not the M4 ( In real life ), so I don't know. :S

I have been involved with the F88 sin 1990 when posted to Townsville in Queensland Australia. The main bugs that had to be ironed out were:
1. Flash suppressor would unscrew and you would end up with it either taking off down range or be able to unscrew off easily.
2. The barrel collet on the receiver would loosen.
3. The sight retical would rotate when firing.
4. The ejection port would chip away when using blank.
5. The magazine will eventually crack at the top edges that hold in the rounds.
6. We had gas plugs that were drilled in the wrong place. Set to adverse and it was actuall Grenade setting. (so all gas went out of barrel).
7. had return springs that were not tempered properly. (squashed down when fired and not return).
8. The early weapon training we received had us slamming the barrel into the receiver and twisting it in. This caused gring and chipping and eventually cracking or busting off retainer at the front of the receiver.
9. When going through a live fire obstacle cse. Found telescopic sight useless unless you could score some scope covers used when weapons first delivered in packaging. (Held front and back with hootchie cord.). If you had mud in scope, scraping it out damaged lenses easily.
10. After firing automatic for extended time, would melt foregrip.
11. Sometimes foregrip spring would break and you end up with the grip in your hand.
12. If using the carbine version, keep foregrip down as you can get your fingers burnt if not.

If all things are o.k. with your rifle. Not a bad weapon. Managed personally to get 55mm group with 20 shots at 100ms. When cleaning gas system etc. with any weapon I found CLR Clear works well in getting off the carbon. (Ensure you oil parts well after using it.Oh yeah don't get caught using it by the olds and bolds. They don't understand that the cleaner does not harm metal and you'll probably get the "Back in the good old days we used to rub the piston on concrete or in the dirt.")
Hope this helps.